on the death bed

gramps said:
I share these views, assuming that this is of a real dead body, then unless you have the permission of the relatives to exhibit this photo on a public Internet forum I believe that you have over-stepped all boundaries of decency.
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gramps said:
From the relatives ... to post it here?
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gramps said:
Photojournalists normally have a legitimate reason e.g. working in a war zone or some other news story.
I see no valid reason for your posting the image here and I am sure that you will have breached the protocols of the establishment where this was photographed.
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gramps said:
So tell us where it was taken.
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gramps said:
My comments were about the image.
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Cobra said:
Let not get too hung up on the why's and wherefore's guys, thanks (y)
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Exactly - but I'll move on, my opinions are obviously not appreciated.
 
tamphotography said:
exactly, thank you, contacts are valuable and to risk losing one isn't good for future work if ever needed.

Malo50, I've seen you flickr, I'm not too worried about the competition, tho I'm by no means a fantastic photographer, and always learning.
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I'm not trying to compete with you. I'll happily admit that when it comes to photographing morbidly static feet, you're the king. I'm a very poor photographer, who's never been commissioned to photograph dead feet.
I do however have a full diary fir most of this year and the early part of 2013. The reason I don't post pictures of my work on here, is that I know they sell, and I don't need the approval of any one other than my clients. You posted an image and asked for critique, I gave it, you didn't like it and you resorted to snotty attacks on my work that you've never seen. If I remember from my old Flickr account, there were no images of dead feet. I'm more than happy to concede that you're the king of necrochopady.
 
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Cobra said:
Tom as already said that he has permission to post this.
As he is a photo-journalist, I am guessing that this is not the only place this image will get published? Right Tom?
And of course Journalists will protect their sources ;)
Let not get too hung up on the why's and wherefore's guys, thanks (y)

On a personal note, its good to see the "boundaries pushed" from time to time (y)
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Personally I cannot see the point in posting such an image on a photography forum. The only boundaries that are being pushed is that a not very good shot is being allowed to generate controversy on TP with the mods blessing.
Then same mods wring their hands when a row breaks out. Just weird to my way of thinking.
 
my 2p on the image

its technically okay , but it doesnt do a lot for me out of context - I assume this is part of a larger set of documentary images, and in that context i could see it having more power - but as it stands its just a shot of some feet.

Incidentally this reminds me that a while back I had an idea for a satirical image like this - with a 'dead' body and the toe tag bearing the name of a certain world leader and the information 'ethically bankrupt & morally dead' (this was arround the time of the dodgy dossier to give that context) - I got as far as staging it (with a live model not having access to an actual corpse) but then decided that it was almost certainly going to be defamatory so never submitted/posted it anywhere out of fear of getting my ass sued.
 
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sawman said:
Personally I cannot see the point in posting such an image on a photography forum.
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The usual reason is for critique :thinking:

I presume the mods thought the membership would be adult enough to discus the merits of the image rather than having a teddy throwing contest over the ethics.

Its a shame that they'd appear to have been overly optimistic in their appraisal
 
i posted it as i knew it would possibly create a talking point, it did, thats a good thing, we all have our critics, its how to develop, technically its not a great image, though an image dosnt have to tick all boxes to get a feeling or thought across, i had literally two mins to shoot, its part of the job, shoot fast, think fast,

congrats on having a "full diary" etc sadly my work dosnt really go with bookings, but good for you,
 
its certainly a debatable and emotive subject, if this is part of a project on life then i think its quite acceptable, death after all is part of life, if its taken on its own as an individual shot, i can see why some would say its crossed the line of decency, i my self dont find it disturbing in any way shape or form

personally though i think its actually a staged shot to be honest, it looks to me a young persons feet (thats not to say young people dont die) but most young people die in accidents and woudnt have thought about leaving them selves to "medical science" and even if they had the cadavers are treated with the utmost respect, they are used to train pathologists/doctors and come under the scrutiny of strict guidelines especially since the furor caused by the alder hey scandal a few years back, to me the tag isnt quite right right in my opinion, its a bit stereotypical if you know what i mean, last time i tagged somebody we used patient id bracelets (on the wrists rater than ankles), though this may be different in different trusts, i do remember the days when we actually wrote the details on bodies with a marker
 
sawman said:
Personally I cannot see the point in posting such an image on a photography forum. The only boundaries that are being pushed is that a not very good shot is being allowed to generate controversy on TP with the mods blessing.
Then same mods wring their hands when a row breaks out. Just weird to my way of thinking.
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There has been, in the history of TP, images, that some find controversial,
"crap" or maybe even distasteful, that cause row's and arguments.
And as long as the arguments stay the right side of personal attacks,
then Yes we are all adults, and free to make up our own minds.

As long as no laws have been broken, then its not up to us to censor images,
would you say? or maybe you (and others) would prefer censorship?
I very much doubt it ;)
 
tamphotography said:
i posted it as i knew it would possibly create a talking point, it did, thats a good thing, we all have our critics, its how to develop, technically its not a great image, though an image dosnt have to tick all boxes to get a feeling or thought across, i had literally two mins to shoot, its part of the job, shoot fast, think fast,

congrats on having a "full diary" etc sadly my work dosnt really go with bookings, but good for you,
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I can understand why. When I discuss any kind of job with potential clients, death isn't usually a good selling point.

If you want to eschew commercialism, you don't need to condemn those who are making a crust.
 
I see nothing wrong as the OP has the necessary permissions. I find it a very interesting and provoking picture. Good work.
 
tamphotography said:
i never once condemned you for it, I'm not here to talk about work, just see the reaction an image can make tbh
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Great, but you still felt the need to say that even though you remarked on what you supposed was my Flickr account was no competition.

To cut through all the BS.
I think it's a fairly proficient, but not really exciting picture of some feet. I find the mono conversion insipid and the crop unimaginative. Now comment on my work,or if not please stop attacking me for work you haven't seen.
 
blimey .......... leave the computer for an hour or so.........

ok the photo - I firstly assumed staged, ok so it is a corpse that has been donated for medical research... there is gonna be a lot more "distasteful" stuff happen to it (sorry no idea of gender) than someone taking a picture of it... I wouldn't say I like it, but doesn't offend me. To be honest , I was more surprised to discover it was an actual dead body that get a mate to lay under a sheet with a tag round his leg...

I guess a lot of people just fear dying....... I didn't but I do now (and that has nothing to do with this photo)... when I croak it, use what is good for others to benefit from, and bury the rest under an acorn.

I honestly don't understand the outrage of it... have seen far worse...
 
I wouldn't say I'm outraged from the image.

More so what the guy is trying to gain by posting a dead body on a public forum with the comment 'thoughts?'

He's hardly asking for critique of his work.
 
First impressions I too thought it was staged and this may offend people but I thought it was a good picture. Very powerful and as mentioned above somewhere in the thread the picture makes you reflect on life, it makes you question how and why and what happened etc.....

Boundaries are always pushed in art forms, it keeps things fresh and inspires new ideas, something that a young amateur photographer like me will benefit from, not saying I'm going to benefit from seeing dead feet, but I hope people understand what I mean.


Everyone has an opinion and is free to share and express it.

And this is one of the most active threads I've seen for a single picture btw lol.

Probably find myself getting even less critique on my photos now after this but I hope that's not the case.

Matt
 
That's a very provocative photo Tom. And it works.
 
Cobra said:
There has been, in the history of TP, images, that some find controversial,
"crap" or maybe even distasteful, that cause row's and arguments.
And as long as the arguments stay the right side of personal attacks,
then Yes we are all adults, and free to make up our own minds.

As long as no laws have been broken, then its not up to us to censor images,
would you say? or maybe you (and others) would prefer censorship?
I very much doubt it ;)
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Fair enough.

As to censorship, suit yersel laddie.:LOL:

My congratulations to the OP, at least he has got folk commenting on his image.:D
 
Interesting that someone comes into a mortuary and takes this shot and then takes it to the outside world and it provokes such discussion, is consdered interesting etc. I do quite like it and it is a little thought provoking. However some of us working for 'the authorities' and those in the medical profession etc have taken hundreds of shots like this without giving it a second thought! I guess in colour they are just a record shot and we don't present them up as an art image! :)
 
*sigh* some of the bickering responses in this thread are downright embarrassing.
 
Thoughts?

It's been done before on here, albeit staged and personally I thought with better lighting:

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=364085

As we're Talking about a PJ shot here, the first thing to consider is whether it breaks the PCC Editor's Code with regards to sensitivity, privacy and regard to the deceased's relatives- in this case I'd say the answer was no.

However I'd question the thoughts behind Tom's motivation for posting the image- which seems to be to stir up an argument. In my own opinion the subject material is absolutely not suitable for that purpose.

Lastly, why a photojournalist would post any image without intact IPTC and the appropriate disclaimers in it, is a bit of a puzzle. Maybe you might like to revisit your workflow and hosting practices Tom!
 
I thought I'd seen an almost identical shot somewhere! Totally agree with what DemiLion has said about lighting.
 
Marcel said:
*sigh* some of the bickering responses in this thread are downright embarrassing.
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yeah well you can say that now ....but i'll get you at play time, and anyway right... my dad, hes bigger than your dad... and you smell , nah nah na nah nah
 
big soft moose said:
yeah well you can say that now ....but i'll get you at play time, and anyway right... my dad, hes bigger than your dad... and you smell , nah nah na nah nah
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LOL. Guilty as charged, I keep getting dragged into these things.

One point though, I'm big enough and ugly enough to take any crit smack on my chin, but seeing as though I've never put details of my Flickr account on here, how does anyone find it with the information on my profile?
 
They don't, not from your profile.
But you're wrong, you have put details of it on here.

That aside...
malo50 said:
Right, so you're a photojournalist? Why didn't you say so? That's the requisite justification for a not particularly good picture of a corpse's feet I was looking for.
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and
malo50 said:
Yes, but I don't want to see dead bad photo's of dead feet. Come to that, I don't really want to see good photos of dead feet.
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Is neither critique, nor polite, nor respectful.
If another mod hadn't got there first, I'd have dished out a temporary suspension.
It's rude comments like that, and the ensuing childish bickering and general petty insults that are giving TP a bad name, and if polite requests to post more politely aren't adhered to then we'll have to start using the only other tool available to us...and that's exclusion from the forums.

So for everyone to bear in mind. Polite, respectful and helpful.
If you can't do that...then walk away from the keyboard.
 
There's something about the title of the post which gives a clue to the content. I thought about it for a while before opening the post.

Maybe there was a conscious thought not to include NSFW in the title or maybe not. I was drawn in by thinking "Well it surely can't be a photo of a real corpse" and having sat and looked at the oversharpened image of a pair of dirty feet found myself wondering whether the image was mocked-up or from real life.

The oversharpening halo adds something of a film effect for me so I don't even find that a cause for objection.

The name on the body label is described as being made up which seems a sensible precaution to have taken. I haven't gone to the trouble of zooming in so it still could be that the name on the tag is ironic such as "the ghost of tolerance" or something like that.

I guess the feet are dirty to convey that the deceased wasn't in a place or position to worry over much about personal hygiene when he died.

I have lost family and friends in the recent enough past to be able to confirm to the op that seeing this image did not cause me immediate distress, nor indeed any distress.

I'm not a camera club judge so I don't gauge images by some predefined scoring system, I gauge them by whether they work for me and the technicalities of composure etc are, for me, secondary to instinct.

I'm going now; it's not for me to judge whether others have been wrong to be offended and I'd much rather stick with my opinion that to each their own. I have wondered about the NSFW prefix and, frankly, wonder where we might draw the line. Maybe it would have avoided some posters being quite so shocked but then if we can't face the realities of life what does that say?
 
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Marcel said:
They don't, not from your profile.
But you're wrong, you have put details of it on here.

That aside...

and

Is neither critique, nor polite, nor respectful.
If another mod hadn't got there first, I'd have dished out a temporary suspension.
It's rude comments like that, and the ensuing childish bickering and general petty insults that are giving TP a bad name, and if polite requests to post more politely aren't adhered to then we'll have to start using the only other tool available to us...and that's exclusion from the forums.

So for everyone to bear in mind. Polite, respectful and helpful.
If you can't do that...then walk away from the keyboard.
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I apologise if I have offended the OP or any other forum member.
 
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I'm not convinced it is real due to the lack of lividity which is a little odd, normally the marbled pattern emerges on the feet very quickly. These should look very white. I would suggest that this person was standing up very recently before the picture was taken looking at the soles of the feet.

Toe tags have been long replaced by wristbands and i'm not aware of anywhere in the UK that still uses them. Although it's a very close crop and the background has been heavily photo shopped there is nothing at all that suggests a mortuary or a necropsy theatre. Just my opinion but of course but I'm happy to be proved wrong.
 
malo50 said:
I apologise if I have offended the OP or any other forum member.
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I can see the pre-edit :)
I merely quoted yours as a prime example of the type of reply we don't want.
 
Death is part of life so I don't see what all the fuss is about. Not every body will have the same opinions but hey ho, we're all different.

I've had strips torn off me on here in the past for criticising subjects of photography instead of just commenting on the actual picture. Both go hand in hand imo (or in this case foot in foot:D). The hypocrisy doesn't surprise me tho.

As far as the pic itself goes, I like it and well done to the poster for having the bottle to put it up knowing some might get their knickers in a twist about it.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
I'm not convinced it is real due to the lack of lividity which is a little odd, normally the marbled pattern emerges on the feet very quickly.
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Maybe we're the experiment, how people would react to the photo etc........

The truth is out there
 
It's a very thought provoking image for sure. Props to you, Tom, as I'm sure you knew it was likely to rattle a few bars.

I have lost relatives and was in an accident that killed my best friend and have no issues with this image. I see worse online and, daily, on the national news so I fail to understand some of the comments made here!

Andy
 
Have you been to see any Andres Serrano exhibits lately OP. Looks Very Serrano inspired. Works great for me, not everyone is going to like it becasue many can not except that death is an important part of life.
 
Valid point Andy - except for one small fact:

Tom is claiming to be a photojournalist, not a visual artist, and that makes a big difference!
 
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