On TLA's, Beginners, and Turning Professional...

[NDevon]

Too many three letter acronyms. Why can't people just say what they mean?

I see all this crap in beginner threads too... people firing acronyms at them. We're not in some stupid management meeting... just speak English.

Totally agree with this. I'm new to photography, all I've done in the last few months is read, watch, watch again and read some more. Books, forums, magazines, websites, YouTube (so much YouTube).

I'm a little embarrassed to admit I haven't even bought a camera yet, I want to learn more before I get it, I know once I get one I'll stop reading and studying and just try to take pictures. It probably sounds stupid, but I want to do this properly.

Frustratingly so many of the Inge I read online (this site is one of the best but it still happens a lot) the people asking the questions get put in their place with acronyms and told they are not good enough and shouldn't try to run before they can walk.

It's not right, butthere's nothing I can do about it. I tend not to ask too many questions as I can't be bothered with people being condescending to me, sure they know about photography and are excellent at wielding a camera, but that isn't a licence to talk down to others or show they know nothing. It's almost sneering sometimes.

The acronyms are the easiest way to do this without it being to blatant, I'm sure sometimes it's done without thinking, but I know it won't always be so easily laughed off.

I've chaired many meetings at all sorts of levels with rooms full of both people with knowledge and experience and people a little anxious about being there. Anytime someone used an acronym I'd always stop them and ask them to explain. Eventually they realised they were not getting away with it. It was lazy, say what you mean or don't say it. And if it wasn't being lazy it was being rude - they could decide which they were being.

I've seen so many people 'put in their place' on here for being new, and they haven't replied or posted again. I'm sure some people come to ask one question then go, but many I guess are just put off posting again, which is such a shame.

And god help anyone who says they would like a career as a photographer - prepare to be ripped apart, spat out and stamped on for being so stupid and arrogant and thinking you may be good enough to join such an elite group of people! Apparantly it will take around 30 years to be good enough - from what I've been reading on here - no idea how any of the professionals have actually made it wih such a strict criteria!

I really like this site and I've learnt loads, but I do get frustrated at the way 'some' of the more experienced members sometimes treat newbies. This site is better than others by far and the mods do seem to jump on a lot of it, but unless someone is being rude it tends to be left for them to deliver a lecture on how they will never be good enough.

Last night I was reading a thread from a lady who is wondering if she should close her studio as life is tough just now. She didn't ask anyone to critique her work or slam her business, but within a few posts she had been tracked down, a link to her website posted, her shop torn apart, her skills written off, her website dissected and she was basically told she wasn't good enough and should give it up. That's not what she asked if you read the posts, it was meant to be a conversation, she was obviously a bit down and wanted to talk it through but had to be publicly destroyed even thou she made it very clear she hadn't asked for a critique. I didn't reply although I was so tempted to, what do I know eh, I'm no photographer! I have run setup and businesses though, and a charity, I've turned struggling businesses round and rescued charities, never once did I feel the need to tell people they were bad at their job or humiliate them though. If I had tried to help I would have been wrong because I'm not a photographer, so hey what do I know.

I know this isn't particularly the place for this rant, but the acronyms are a big part of what puts people off asking for help. The responses they get will decide if they carry on or just not bother coming back.

 

[DG Phototraining]

What next a rant about text-speak, which, tbh and IMHO is a PITA

In my former life of legal work abbreviations/acronyms were (are) very common indeed, so in most writing you simply stated it in full the first time with the short version in brackets immediately thereafter, and use the short version the rest of the time

i.e. The best Off Camera Flash (OCF) techniques involve... - and OCF is used throughout the rest of that document,; but in a new document it would be stated in full again first. The same is done for names too, hence David Brian Marc Robert Jones (David), so any reference to that person was just David thereafter (unless of course there were two with that name)

I don't read many beginner threads I'm afraid, mostly as a 'simple' question often requires a very lengthy answer, but if beginners here are being put of, or worse abused, then just use the Report button and the mods will jump on it soon enough

Dave

 

[NDevon]

If people used the full meaning and then followed with an abbreviation during the rest of the post that would be good, I've seen websites link any abbreviation to the list of abbreviations so it's easy to find what they mean.

Regarding 'reporting' - people are not going to do that Dave, it's a forums culture, if someone is blatantly offensive I see they get dealt with, it's the patronising and arrogance that won't be policed - too hard to monitor on a busy site. It's about people thinking they are better than others, nobody else could do what they do, or jealous of anyone else making it.

I plan on spending a few grand on camera equipment next year, probably more, I can afford to do so and I want to spend it so I will, this will be my first 'proper' camera. I would get slated if I started a thread saying I was spending thousands on my first camera - I should not be spending that, start small, don't do this don't do that. It happens, I've seen it many times reading the posts on this forum, it's sad really and mostly looks like jealousy if I have to put a reason to it. People can spend what they like, they know it won't make them a good photographer, and if they don't know it they soon will. I don't see the point in buying a decent camera and hen upgrading shortly after, if I buy something decent and don't want to keep it I can get back most of my outlay fairly easily.

As I said generally this is a really friendly place, certainly more so than other sites, it's just a bit 'I know better than you' sometimes.

 

[DG Phototraining]

If people used the full meaning and then followed with an abbreviation during the rest of the post that would be good, I've seen websites link any abbreviation to the list of abbreviations so it's easy to find what they mean.

Regarding 'reporting' - people are not going to do that Dave, it's a forums culture, if someone is blatantly offensive I see they get dealt with, it's the patronising and arrogance that won't be policed - too hard to monitor on a busy site. It's about people thinking they are better than others, nobody else could do what they do, or jealous of anyone else making it.

I plan on spending a few grand on camera equipment next year, probably more, I can afford to do so and I want to spend it so I will, this will be my first 'proper' camera. I would get slated if I started a thread saying I was spending thousands on my first camera - I should not be spending that, start small, don't do this don't do that. It happens, I've seen it many times reading the posts on this forum, it's sad really and mostly looks like jealousy if I have to put a reason to it. People can spend what they like, they know it won't make them a good photographer, and if they don't know it they soon will. I don't see the point in buying a decent camera and hen upgrading shortly after, if I buy something decent and don't want to keep it I can get back most of my outlay fairly easily.

As I said generally this is a really friendly place, certainly more so than other sites, it's just a bit 'I know better than you' sometimes.

Sadly lots of truth in that - however, I always say if you can afford it buy the 'best' - 'best' being the best for what you're wanting to do as opposed to just the highest mp Blad etc.

The beauty of having the best gear is that there can be no blame laid at the gear itself, so any inadequacies are the tog's, which is a great starting point if pennies allow

You sound thick skinned, so when you're ready post that thread then invite me to comment on it too - see if we can rile a few idiots

Cheers

Dave

 

[NDevon]

Sadly lots of truth in that - however, I always say if you can afford it buy the 'best' - 'best' being the best for what you're wanting to do as opposed to just the highest mp Blad etc.

The beauty of having the best gear is that there can be no blame laid at the gear itself, so any inadequacies are the tog's, which is a great starting point if pennies allow

You sound thick skinned, so when you're ready post that thread then invite me to comment on it too - see if we can rile a few idiots

Cheers

Dave

Ha! Will do! For me it's about buying once not keep updating, I like to buy good quality things that will last me as long as I need them to last, I'm not a brand snob, I buy quality because I appreciate it - I've used Apple computers for 28 years now, I didn't start liking them when they made a mobile phone. I don't need to own the latest and best of anything, if my phone or computer is a few years old and not the latest spec I don't care if it's still working for me. That's my rationale for wanting to spend a lot of money on a camera I guess. I'm not rushing though and I will seek advice on lenses and some specifics, but can't be bothered with being told I should buy one for a few hundred to 'see how I get on'.

And I agree, if I can't get a good picture owning one of the best cameras around then I obviously am s**t and need to do a lot more studying and practicing!

I do realise a lot come on here and think you can buy a top of the range camera and make a fortune, maybe they do have some talent, maybe they can learn, maybe they can't, I'm not sure it matters - ultimately if a member of the public booked someone who was showing off a bad portfolio or had nothing to show of their work then that's their own stupidity. I don't think it needs policing.

On the flip side I'm amazed how many photographers I've stumbled across who picked up a camera for the first time just a few years ago and shot a wedding for a friend and are now not only making a living but winning awards and being featured in articles. It's not impossible, it's unusual sure, but I think the way some people get treated for having a dream is a little odd.

One of the hardest parts of this hobby is understanding the flipping language. The acronyms make it hard, but knowing what they stand for don't usually help! I'll get there eventually...

 

[ecoleman]

The Americans have to abbreviate everything it's ridiculous.

Although not as annoying as the Brits who insist on sticking two words together to describe something.

BREXIT anyone?

 

[TheBigYin]

if beginners here are being put of, or worse abused, then just use the Report button and the mods will jump on it soon enough

with pleasure...

 

[TheBigYin]

Regarding 'reporting' - people are not going to do that Dave, it's a forums culture, if someone is blatantly offensive I see they get dealt with, it's the patronising and arrogance that won't be policed - too hard to monitor on a busy site.

there's thousands of active members, and around 4-5 active moderators on here, probably 1 or 2 at most at any one time - we can't be everywhere, and we DO rely on people reporting poor behaviour, and believe me, we come down on people being arrogant and patronising if it's reported just as we do with personal insults or other offensive behaviour. But - we can't see everything - hence the regular plea's from the staff to "report it and leave the moderating to us"... If people take it into their own hands to react, then they'll likely end up getting slapped just as hard as the original offender.

 

[Pookeyhead]

And god help anyone who says they would like a career as a photographer - prepare to be ripped apart, spat out and stamped on for being so stupid and arrogant and thinking you may be good enough to join such an elite group of people! Apparantly it will take around 30 years to be good enough - from what I've been reading on here - no idea how any of the professionals have actually made it wih such a strict criteria!

1st year medical student: "What do I have to do to become a surgeon?"

Experienced surgeon: "Carry on through the next 6 years and become an expert in your field and don't worry about that yet".

1st year student: "Stop patronising me... I know enough... stop being elitist about this... just tell me what I want to know"

Surgeon: [Facepalm]



The difference is of course, no one will die if you mess up, but I'm sure the wedding shooters on here will back me up on this... if you mess up someone's wedding, they don't just want a refund.. they want revenge!

Now... it doesn't take 7 years to become technically proficient, no, but it does take more than a few weeks watching you tube videos. The problem is digital is easy, and you can start to get reasonable results very quickly compared to when we used film only, and that fools the beginner into thinking they are good enough to earn money with a camera. They're not. Not because they can't take nice images, but because they can't do it to order... every time.. Having a few "keepers" from an SD card full of crap ain't gonna cut it... not even for weddings. However, in the commercial world, it's a whole world of hurt you're getting yourself into if you are not technically competent. In that arena, a client or art director will hand you a story board/mood board or sketch and say "Do that". Sometimes what they ask is almost impossible, but you have to do it any way. Unless you want to end up swallowing your pride and letting the client know you just can't do it, you need to be able to deal with anything anyone throws at you. You need to be an expert in light and managing light... you need to be a set builder... stylist... and a whole load of other practical things that impact upon an image. Sure... most jobs will have a set builder on the case, and a stylist... but you still need to be able to talk to them, direct them... work with them. Having a few good pics of sunsets and landscapes on Flickr ain't gonna cut it. We've not even TOUCHED on you as a creative yet. How are you going to realise people's visions and ideas in an original and creative way? How much do you KNOW about photography... I don't mean cameras and lenses and techy stuff.. I mean photography as an art form and a means of communication?

Forgive me if you think this is somehow arrogant, but it IS annoying when beginners ask what they need to do to be a professional photographer when they clearly are beginners and have so much to learn before they can even think about it. It's disrespectful.. not only to the person giving advice (as it seems dismissive of the years of skill acquisition they've had to go through) but it's disrespectful of PHOTOGRAPHY. It's as if they can't be arsed LEARNING... can't be bothered investing the TIME... it's as if they think "Look... I've made some nice shots without all this learning stuff... so just tell me how to make money". It shows a distinct lack of anything even remotely approaching a love of the subject, and demonstrates instead a casual disregard for the skills required.

We are telling you... but some do not listen.

By your own admission, you've never even taken a photograph yet, so why are you bothered about how to become a professional photographer? Surely, you understand, to be a professional photographer, you need to be a good photographer, so why not concentrate on THAT first.


Read, practice, learn.

Study light and how to shape it. Forget available light for now... learn crafting your own. Attain lighting skills... force yourself to shoot things that are challenging technically instead of waiting for "nice light"... you may not have "nice light" on your first ever job.. THEN what you gonna do? The client ain't gonna wait for you. Get some studio time in... if you don't know anyone with a studio, and can't afford to hire one, then consider a college course, even if it's purely get access to a studio where you can play. Once there... live in the damned place. It sickened me that my students never, ever used to go into the studio, yet would moan when school management threatened to close the studios. I'm sicj of people saying "I'm an available light photographer"... bo**ocks!.. That means they can't be arsed with the learning curve.

The fact is... being a good amateur and having some nice images on a website does NOT mean you can cut it professionally in a commercial context. You won't have the luxury to select a few "keepers" from that 16GB SD card full of s**t... you'll need to be able to set it up.. shoot it, and deliver the goods, on demand, every time.


Then there's the quality issue. Sure.... I can see MILLIONS of nice images on Flickr... but go closer,.... zoom in.. Oh dear... all the processing artefacts... crap quality... (sigh). It's easy to make shiny things that look great on a computer screen. Print that shizzle at A1 and see what happens.


If you wanna shoot weddings for £300 a pop... then feel free to ignore any or all of the above, as most are s**t... they produce S**t and the client, amazingly enough is happy to pay for that s**t. If you have any aspirations beyond that though, then sorry... asking "How do I become a professional photographer" when you don't know your arse from your elbow photographically is a stupid question to ask. It's like asking how to become a formula 1 driver, but getting annoyed because people keep telling you to learn to drive.. go through teh ranks... start with carting... get some experience... learn... and just wanting to skip all of that, and wanting to get a drive with Mercedes because you once put in a sub 2 minute 30 lap at Oulton Park in a Seal Leon after watching a you tube video.

Sorry for the rant, but if you want to be a professional photographer... be a bloody good photographer, and stop wasting your time asking how to be a professional photographer when you should be studying, practising and shooting instead.


Oh... another thing. Lay off the processing until you know what you're doing.


[edit]

Also... being a professional photographer is probably 10 (or if you're lucky 20) percent photography, and 90 percent running a business. Do some business courses as well.

All of this is way beyond someone who's never even taken a photo in anger yet... seriously. Just enjoy yourself and stop putting pressure on yourself. The reality is, you may even HATE being a professional photographer. It's nothing like being an amateur. Most amateurs think it's the same, except you get money. Dream on.

 

[Shirleyr]

Too many three letter acronyms. Why can't people just say what they mean?

I see all this crap in beginner threads too... people firing acronyms at them. We're not in some stupid management meeting... just speak English.

I've tried to read and understand all the posts and I was beginning to lose the will to live until I read this post, I've asked to have my photos to be edited but honestly I cannot understand one half of the acronyms etc ooc and drl. Please, please please say what you mean in plain English. If folk can't say exactly what they mean soon I'll just say no to edit.
What, 144 posts, this post needs a red rosett, first class post.

 

[NDevon]

.......The difference is of course, no one will die if you mess up, but I'm sure the wedding shooters on here will back me up on this... if you mess up someone's wedding, they don't just want a refund.. they want revenge!.....

.....Forgive me if you think this is somehow arrogant, but it IS annoying when beginners ask what they need to do to be a professional photographer when they clearly are beginners and have so much to learn before they can even think about it. It's disrespectful.. not only to the person giving advice (as it seems dismissive of the years of skill acquisition they've had to go through) but it's disrespectful of PHOTOGRAPHY. It's as if they can't be arsed LEARNING... can't be bothered investing the TIME... it's as if they think "Look... I've made some nice shots without all this learning stuff... so just tell me how to make money". It shows a distinct lack of anything even remotely approaching a love of the subject, and demonstrates instead a casual disregard for the skills required.

We are telling you... but some do not listen.

By your own admission, you've never even taken a photograph yet, so why are you bothered about how to become a professional photographer? Surely, you understand, to be a professional photographer, you need to be a good photographer, so why not concentrate on THAT first.

Read, practice, learn.

Study light and how to shape it. Forget available light for now... learn crafting your own. Attain lighting skills... force yourself to shoot things that are challenging technically instead of waiting for "nice light"... you may not have "nice light" on your first ever job.. THEN what you gonna do? The client ain't gonna wait for you. Get some studio time in... if you don't know anyone with a studio, and can't afford to hire one, then consider a college course, even if it's purely get access to a studio where you can play. Once there... live in the damned place. It sickened me that my students never, ever used to go into the studio, yet would moan when school management threatened to close the studios. I'm sicj of people saying "I'm an available light photographer"... bo**ocks!.. That means they can't be arsed with the learning curve......

.....If you have any aspirations beyond that though, then sorry... asking "How do I become a professional photographer" when you don't know your arse from your elbow photographically is a stupid question to ask.....

Sorry for the rant, but if you want to be a professional photographer... be a bloody good photographer, and stop wasting your time asking how to be a professional photographer when you should be studying, practising and shooting instead.

Oh... another thing. Lay off the processing until you know what you're doing.

Also... being a professional photographer is probably 10 (or if you're lucky 20) percent photography, and 90 percent running a business. Do some business courses as well.

All of this is way beyond someone who's never even taken a photo in anger yet... seriously. Just enjoy yourself and stop putting pressure on yourself.... Dream on.

I've cut out some of the key points.

First question - why are you aiming them at me? I was saying what I've seen across the forum and how anyone who asks a question gets 'told'. I think you'll find I've never once 'asked how to become a professional photographer', if I did want to be one I wouldn't ask how to do it, I'd just get on with it and ask specific questions related to equipment or lighting details.

You make a lot of assumptions about me which is a little strange. I've openly admitted I'm not a photographer and I'm learning, I've taken many thousands of pictures over the years, I take some most days, but I have either used a £50 first generation digital camera or a smartphone - that's not the same as 'never taken a photo'. I don't think I'm good, but I don't think I'm bad either, I have a ton to learn of course but I have a lot of time to learn. That's why I haven't got a camera yet other than my phone - I know if I rush and get one I'll be playing with it and not reading.

I like to have a good idea what I'm doing before I start. I've even read a few camera manuals online - sad I know but it gave me a good idea of what I have coming up. I'm trying not to spend too much before my wedding in May, that's 20k so for now and with Christmas fast approaching and 3 kids and a fiancé and family to spoil rotten I don't think buying a camera just yet is a priority. Also I want to see what everyone thinks of the new 5D as that's the camera I'm most interested in, and it's not yet available obviously. With a few lenses, flashes and other equipment that's a fair amount to spend for now, so I shall most likely wait until next summer. I was looking at going out and getting something for around a grand with a lens, but again I'd stop reading and start playing, so I'm just going to carry on as I am. I don't see that as a bad thing, I think it's good to study, you may well disagree - that's your prerogative.

As for business, I guess I have more experience than many. I've set up and run businesses and a charity, my first few businesses paid the bills but didn't do so great, but since then all successful, and I've spent time helping struggling businesses to turn their organisation around. So if being a professional photographer is even '20% photography' I guess I'm closer to 80% there than many others.

You seem to think I'm desperate to become a photographer tomorrow and I'm not sure why. If I was I'd have a camera and be taking pics without reading the instruction manual - that seems to be a consistent theme amongst people new to it. My posts were defending the people who say they want to be a photographer and get a long rant about how they won't make it and shouldn't even bother trying. You then posted a long rant about me being 'desperate' to be a professional photographer.

You seem to be very upset about it all, and you are aiming your frustrations at me - wrongly placed I'm afraid. I don't really care what you think of my approach, but there is a little more irony here - everyone says how you need to learn so much and practice to death. Well I'm doing that to the extreme, I'm studying all I can and enjoying finding out about every aspect of photography and lighting. When I get a camera I will do the practice stuff of course. I'm not rushing into anything, and for the record I have no interest in being a wedding photographer - I have no interest in following people around for 8 hours, I don't need the hassle or the money. I admire people who do it and I enjoy seeing the pictures they produce - call me wierd if you like, I like looking at the different aspects they capture, maybe that's because I have my own wedding looming fast - but I would never want to do it myself. It kind of looks like hell. If I was young, fit and good with a camera I may have been interested, but I have a significant long term health condition, I can't be chasing a petulant bride around a reception venue trying to capture her good side!

I have less pressure on my shoulders than pretty much anyone I know. I've basically retired, I spend my time looking after my disabled children, I have plenty of money and plenty of time, I have land, space, and skills. I don't know exactly what I want to do with my time, space and money yet, but if I decide to spend several thousand on photographic equipment thats up to me. I know it won't make me a professional photographer - I'm not as stupid as you seem to think.

I do know I want to do is travel around the beautiful south west and take pictures of things I like. I don't want to sell those pictures, I want to do something interesting and I am wondering if one day I could be good enough to take portraits. I don't need a lecture about costs of setting up a studio and the overheads, I have a nice little unused barn next door which would be just perfect for conversion to a studio and couldn't be more convenient, with my lovely huge garden connecting to the barn there are plenty of opportunities for a nice location to take picture in. I was going to convert the barn to an anexxe so I and more space for visiting relatives (they all like to descend on us and it's an effort trying to squeeze them in) or I had somewhere comfy when my other half kicks me out of bed. I'd also like it to be a nice study where I can escape, listen to my music and work on any projects I wanted to develop - theres no reason it couldn't be a studio area for me to take some pics of my kids, dogs, cat and the occasional lamb or calf on the farm! I think having an area wih studio lights where I could learn how to capture better and better images and get it wrong over and over is a good thing. I don't need paying clients, but yea if I was good enough and I could make some money for my kids that would be great. I won't be around for much longer and I'd rather my kids had a pot of cash so they could pay for their own care rather than the local authority drag them off screaming to a care home and decide how they should live.

The other thing I'd love to do is take photographs of F1 races. I'm a big F1 fan but don't get to many races, it would give me more enthusiasm to get to more races - all just for my pleasure of course, before anyone attacks me, I don't want to sell any photos, I'd just love some for my study wall.

I honestly have no idea if I have the skills or could ever develop the skills to be a half decent portrait photographer, but it's unlikely I'd ask for any advice on a forum as people would just want to tell me I could never be good enough. Everyone thinks that if you ask how to do something it means you plan on doing it next week. I'd suggest that isn't usually how it is.

I'm telling you this personal stuff so you can see how wrong your assumptions about me were I guess, I found your post a bit offensive if I'm honest as I certainly never attacked you or what you do, but you think I am planning on being a wedding photographer without owning a camera or taking a picture I don't learn anything and I'm going to do it all next week. Nope, wrong on every count.

I have no doubt it's really frustrating that it's so easy to buy the tools to do the job and think 'I can be a photographer', and when people ask what they need to do to get going it's likely very easy to jump on them. I guess I don't see why people have to do it, you've done it above and I haven't even said most of the things you think I've said! If someone wants to be a surgeon then they will soon realise they can't, there are people posting on here who are professional, have a photography business but saying they can't get any bookings. That's not me implying they can't do it, but if they can't get bookings how is someone without any skills going to get any?

As you say it's unlikely they can kill anyone with their camera (although I bet it would do some damage wrapped round a head) but obviously they could ruin a couples 'big day' with terrible pictures. I would hope no bride would book someone without the skills as they would want to see their work first. Of course they could have lied and used someone else's work, but that's going in a different direction a little. There are so many good photographers around and with the internet it's so easy to see their work before even talking to them that it's unlikely someone without the skills would get any work.

So I guess I don't see the problem, you guys don't have to put people in their place, surely you can either just ignore it or tell them the facts without having to tell them they won't ever make it? It's nice if people are doing it because they don't want others to waste their money, but I'm just not sure that's why everyone does it - sometimes it smacks of jealousy.

Other times it just comes across as bullying and abuse. The acronyms are a big part of this, putting someone down by trying to make them feel stupid is one way of showing you know more than they do.

 

[Pookeyhead]

I've made no assumptions about you, other than you seem to be upset that professionals are telling beginners that perhaps they need more practice before they should consider becoming professional. I am p***ed off with beginners thinking professionals are arrogant and elitist because we insist they at least learn how to be competent in their chosen field before they start asking how to make money out of it, yes.

I have plenty of money and plenty of time, I have land, space, and skills.

None of which, apart from skills (if they're photographic, creative or business related) will actually help you.

I honestly have no idea if I have the skills or could ever develop the skills to be a half decent portrait photographer, but it's unlikely I'd ask for any advice on a forum as people would just want to tell me I could never be good enough.

What makes you think that? If you're asking for help on improving your photography, you'll get more help than you can shake a stick at on here. Just don't say "Hi.. I've just bought a camera: What's the best lens to use to shoot wedding" or yes, you'll get a less than welcoming response, and rightly so.

I have no doubt it's really frustrating that it's so easy to buy the tools to do the job and think 'I can be a photographer', and when people ask what they need to do to get going it's likely very easy to jump on them. I guess I don't see why people have to do it, you've done it above and I haven't even said most of the things you think I've said! If someone wants to be a surgeon then they will soon realise they can't, there are people posting on here who are professional, have a photography business but saying they can't get any bookings. That's not me implying they can't do it, but if they can't get bookings how is someone without any skills going to get any?

Because Mr No Idea with the gear does it for £200 and the client who pays £200 clearly isn't the type of client who's arsed about anything remotely resembling quality.

I would hope no bride would book someone without the skills as they would want to see their work first.

You'd be surprised what some people "on a budget" can accept as worth paying for... so long as it's only a couple of hundred quid that is.

So I guess I don't see the problem, you guys don't have to put people in their place, surely you can either just ignore it or tell them the facts without having to tell them they won't ever make it? It's nice if people are doing it because they don't want others to waste their money, but I'm just not sure that's why everyone does it - sometimes it smacks of jealousy.

I don't believe I've once said you're not going to make it. I've merely said stop worrying about it now... wait until you actually know what you're doing... then consider it again.

Just relax.. learn... become good at what you do... then if you still want to, ask the questions like that when you're ready. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to help another beginner with no idea to become a professional so they can further sully the reputation of an industry already half ruined by amateurs with no idea... just not gonna happen.

You're not ready yet.... just get really good at it first, because.. call me old fashioned... but I think it's a pre-requisite.

 

[NDevon]

I've made no assumptions about you, other than you seem to be upset that professionals are telling beginners that perhaps they need more practice before they should consider becoming professional. I am p***ed off with beginners thinking professionals are arrogant and elitist because we insist they at least learn how to be competent in their chosen field before they start asking how to make money out of it, yes....

.....I don't believe I've once said you're not going to make it. I've merely said stop worrying about it now... wait until you actually know what you're doing... then consider it again.

Just relax.. learn... become good at what you do... then if you still want to, ask the questions like that when you're ready. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to help another beginner with no idea to become a professional so they can further sully the reputation of an industry already half ruined by amateurs with no idea... just not gonna happen.

You're not ready yet.... just get really good at it first, because.. call me old fashioned... but I think it's a pre-requisite.

Ready for what? No assumptions? You replied to me by stating how I wanted to do this and be that, I wasn't this or that and can't do the other. If they are not assumptions - as they are certainly not based on facts - then I don't know what they are.

I'm not at all upset, maybe you need to go back and read what I've said. It's not telling people they need practice, it's about what they say and how it's said. I have every right to make the observation.

For the record I'm not worrying about a thing, I'm more relaxed than I've ever been - and I've no idea what I think I'm ready for! I'm not particularly ready for anything - not Christmas, not my wedding, not the apocalypse. You really can stop worrying about me, I have no intention of pretending to be a photographer and making you look bad, I've made it pretty clear that if I want to do something I'll do it right or not at all. I also haven't asked for your help to become a professional - and never would. Maybe you are confusing me for someone else?

I didn't think replying to you would get you so annoyed, I was actually agreeing with your observation about the abbreviations and pointed out that ere are many ways people get made to look small on here, and you decided I wanted to be a fake wedding photographer a week Wednesday!

No harm intended, I just say what I see and speak my mind.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Ready for what? No assumptions? You replied to me by stating how I wanted to do this and be that, I wasn't this or that and can't do the other. If they are not assumptions - as they are certainly not based on facts - then I don't know what they are.

You were complaining about how beginners who ask about being a professional are replied to. If you mean I assumed you had some kind of vested interest in that subject, then yes... that I did assume. If that's not the case, then I wonder why you made an issue of it. (shrug)

I get annoyed when beginners who barge on here asking "What's the best lens to use for a wedding.. I've got one booked next week", or "I've had my camera for a few weeks now, and I feel I'd like to try and earn some money with my photography": Yes.. I get annoyed at that. Not because I don't think they have any right to ask, but because they invariably whinge when they don't receive some magic answer that tells them what they want to hear.

 

[DemiLion]

You two are more boring than all the acronyms put together!

 

[Pookeyhead]

You two are more boring than all the acronyms put together!

Thanks for your useful contribution

Just to remind you.... You can ignore any user of the forum any time.

 

[Phil V]

Totally agree with this. I'm new to photography, all I've done in the last few months is read, watch, watch again and read some more. Books, forums, magazines, websites, YouTube (so much YouTube).

I'm a little embarrassed to admit I haven't even bought a camera yet, I want to learn more before I get it, I know once I get one I'll stop reading and studying and just try to take pictures. It probably sounds stupid, but I want to do this properly.

Frustratingly so many of the Inge I read online (this site is one of the best but it still happens a lot) the people asking the questions get put in their place with acronyms and told they are not good enough and shouldn't try to run before they can walk.

It's not right, butthere's nothing I can do about it. I tend not to ask too many questions as I can't be bothered with people being condescending to me, sure they know about photography and are excellent at wielding a camera, but that isn't a licence to talk down to others or show they know nothing. It's almost sneering sometimes.

The acronyms are the easiest way to do this without it being to blatant, I'm sure sometimes it's done without thinking, but I know it won't always be so easily laughed off.

I've chaired many meetings at all sorts of levels with rooms full of both people with knowledge and experience and people a little anxious about being there. Anytime someone used an acronym I'd always stop them and ask them to explain. Eventually they realised they were not getting away with it. It was lazy, say what you mean or don't say it. And if it wasn't being lazy it was being rude - they could decide which they were being.

I've seen so many people 'put in their place' on here for being new, and they haven't replied or posted again. I'm sure some people come to ask one question then go, but many I guess are just put off posting again, which is such a shame.

And god help anyone who says they would like a career as a photographer - prepare to be ripped apart, spat out and stamped on for being so stupid and arrogant and thinking you may be good enough to join such an elite group of people! Apparantly it will take around 30 years to be good enough - from what I've been reading on here - no idea how any of the professionals have actually made it wih such a strict criteria!

I really like this site and I've learnt loads, but I do get frustrated at the way 'some' of the more experienced members sometimes treat newbies. This site is better than others by far and the mods do seem to jump on a lot of it, but unless someone is being rude it tends to be left for them to deliver a lecture on how they will never be good enough.

Last night I was reading a thread from a lady who is wondering if she should close her studio as life is tough just now. She didn't ask anyone to critique her work or slam her business, but within a few posts she had been tracked down, a link to her website posted, her shop torn apart, her skills written off, her website dissected and she was basically told she wasn't good enough and should give it up. That's not what she asked if you read the posts, it was meant to be a conversation, she was obviously a bit down and wanted to talk it through but had to be publicly destroyed even thou she made it very clear she hadn't asked for a critique. I didn't reply although I was so tempted to, what do I know eh, I'm no photographer! I have run setup and businesses though, and a charity, I've turned struggling businesses round and rescued charities, never once did I feel the need to tell people they were bad at their job or humiliate them though. If I had tried to help I would have been wrong because I'm not a photographer, so hey what do I know.

I know this isn't particularly the place for this rant, but the acronyms are a big part of what puts people off asking for help. The responses they get will decide if they carry on or just not bother coming back.

I've put in a request to have this discussion filtered off to its own thread, because it's become complicated and is a million miles away from this thread.

If it gets moved, I'll offer my 2 pennorth because whilst you have some valid points, you've also twisted some other issues completely.

 

[NDevon]

You were complaining about how beginners who ask about being a professional are replied to. If you mean I assumed you had some kind of vested interest in that subject, then yes... that I did assume. If that's not the case, then I wonder why you made an issue of it. (shrug)

I get annoyed when beginners who barge on here asking "What's the best lens to use for a wedding.. I've got one booked next week", or "I've had my camera for a few weeks now, and I feel I'd like to try and earn some money with my photography": Yes.. I get annoyed at that. Not because I don't think they have any right to ask, but because they invariably whinge when they don't receive some magic answer that tells them what they want to hear.

You could just ignore them though, I just don't see why people need 'telling' - there are a lot of lectures dished out on this site about how people shouldn't do this or that, I wonder why anybody ever asks for help.

I'm interested in making money from photography yes, I've made that clear from my first post, I just didn't see why you decided to have a go at me for wanting to be a wedding photographer (I don't) and rushing (I'm not) and not learning (I'm trying) and about editing pics (I didn't say I did) and so on. That's all.

I guess I was just surprised on joining the forum how many people seemed to get attacked for asking a question. If it was my profession people wanted to get into and didn't have the skills or knowledge I'd either offer them advice or just let them get on wih it knowin they will either make it or fail. No skin off my nose. I hadn't stepped back to consider it may impact you all personally if someone isn't a good photographer but markets themself as one. Maybe it does, I wouldn't think it was a big issue as they won't last long and it's so easy to see quality when you are shown it. Looking at websites and portfolios of various photographers on this site there are some pics that really stand out, and others that just don't - business cards are cheap and easy to print but real talent is hard to fake.

 

[NDevon]

I've put in a request to have this discussion filtered off to its own thread, because it's become complicated and is a million miles away from this thread.

If it gets moved, I'll offer my 2 pennorth because whilst you have some valid points, you've also twisted some other issues completely.

I'm not sure it is Phil. David raised the point (and I replied to it) that people firing acronyms in beginner threads is a bad thing, the amount of times I have to open a new tab and Google an acronym is ridiculous, even if I've looked it up ey are so easy to forget! I just think people could ease off others sometimes, I've seen your posts defending ambition Phil, I read something earlier where a guy was saying he wanted to set up a business and was being slated, you said good luck to him. I totally get that some think it looks like an easy career to get into, you just buy some stuff and that's it, surely? Of course that's not the case, but who's going to buy their output? Their mum, best friends maybe, but they will soon run out of customers as they don't have the talent.

We see it on talent shows (I use the term loosely), someone comes on and thinks they are going to be famous, they can sing, they know they can, they've sung at the pub on karaoke nights and their family say they are great. They are only in front of the judges as its good telly, they have no chance. I don't see who they are harming, they are never going to be famous, does someone have to have the job of rounding up all the talentless folk and telling them to give up? Out of the thousands who apply for those shows only a handful will ever be heard of again, if that many. Of course it's different to this example, but it's got similarities.

Feel free to tell me what issues I've twisted, if the thread moves I assume I'll get a notification?

 

[Pookeyhead]

You could just ignore them though, I just don't see why people need 'telling'

Err.. because they asked teh question? LOL Ok.. I'll ignore such questions from now on, then get accused of also being some kind of elitist who deems the question unworthy of answer. Just can't win LOL

- there are a lot of lectures dished out on this site about how people shouldn't do this or that, I wonder why anybody ever asks for help.

have you ever considered it's actually good advice? No.. suppose not.

If it was my profession people wanted to get into and didn't have the skills or knowledge I'd either offer them advice

I'm talking about beginners who ask how to be a professional, not beginners who ask for help with photography. Ask anyone on here how far I go to help beginners... or do a search. Until recently I taught photography at degree level, and have done for years.

If you're a beginner, and you want to know how to become a professional photographer, I'm afraid the answer is to first become a photographer. Deal with it.

 

[NDevon]

If you're a beginner, and you want to know how to become a professional photographer, I'm afraid the answer is to first become a photographer. Deal with it.

Such a ray of sunshine! I'll leave you to it, enjoy the rest of your day

 

[Pookeyhead]

Such a ray of sunshine! I'll leave you to it, enjoy the rest of your day

Sorry.... no quick fixes, plug-ins or silver bullets... just hard work and practice (shrug). I also fail to see why that warranted the above comment. It's just a fact, and if you think about it, a perfectly logical and reasonable one.

Become a photographer.... then worry about becoming a professional photographer. If you fail to see the login in this, then you need to sit down and have a good hard think about it.

 

[TheBigYin]

If you're a beginner, and you want to know how to become a professional photographer, I'm afraid the answer is to first become a photographer. Deal with it.

I'm sorely tempted to ask if I can stick that down as my Signature David...

 

[TheBigYin]

Okay - I've moved all the off-topic discussion into it's own thread - the Abreviations thread in the beginners section was intended as a simple reference list, not a bunfight about how they should be used, if at all, and it certainly wasn't intended to be another "The nasty professionals are picking on me because I've only owned a camera for 3 days, still can't switch it on, and I've booked 18 weddings" thread...

 

[Phil V]

...

Feel free to tell me what issues I've twisted, if the thread moves I assume I'll get a notification?

Now it's been moved...

Last night I was reading a thread from a lady who is wondering if she should close her studio as life is tough just now. She didn't ask anyone to critique her work or slam her business, but within a few posts she had been tracked down, a link to her website posted, her shop torn apart, her skills written off, her website dissected and she was basically told she wasn't good enough and should give it up. That's not what she asked if you read the posts, it was meant to be a conversation, she was obviously a bit down and wanted to talk it through but had to be publicly destroyed even thou she made it very clear she hadn't asked for a critique. I didn't reply although I was so tempted to, what do I know eh, I'm no photographer! I have run setup and businesses though, and a charity, I've turned struggling businesses round and rescued charities, never once did I feel the need to tell people they were bad at their job or humiliate them though. If I had tried to help I would have been wrong because I'm not a photographer, so hey what do I know.

Yes she was simply asking if she should keep her studio open. But offered very little background or justification, which led to...

IIRC some people did find her website, but again IIRC they never simply told her to give up. They gave her some very good business advice (which may have been a little forthright and was admittedly not asked for).

I don't think I commented, but the advice given by Dave (@DG Phototraining ) to update her style so she could raise her prices was absolutely 100% bang on. Business advice is tough to hear sometimes, but (and I speak as someone with experience) running a failing business is totally soul destroying. And if the advice can save someone from the very real heartache of a failed business, that's surely a good thing.

There's no point in a support network that blows smoke up your arse. I'm all for being encouraging, but I also reserve the right to shatter illusions, and if that means shattering dreams too, and if that means people leave the site, then I don't accept responsibility for their unrealistic expectations not being met.

Hope that clarifies.

Bloody hell it took the mods a long time to filter this very worthy debate away from the other thread.

 

[NDevon]

Sorry.... no quick fixes, plug-ins or silver bullets... just hard work and practice (shrug). I also fail to see why that warranted the above comment. It's just a fact, and if you think about it, a perfectly logical and reasonable one.

Become a photographer.... then worry about becoming a professional photographer. If you fail to see the login in this, then you need to sit down and have a good hard think about it.

David - I never said there were 'quick fixes' and all the other stuff. It's you saying all this stuff, not me, go have a look. You really need to realise you are moaning at the wrong person. I never said most of things you seem to think I've said, you just seem keen to tell me I know nothing and I need to learn - yep, I've said that from the very beginning. Go and find a wannabe wedding photographer to shout at - I'm sure one will be along soon!

I'm really really really not worried about becoming a preofessional photographer, you are worried about me becoming one for some reason. It's very kind of you to be concerned, but there's no need to be, I'm just having fun learning, no rush, no stress, no desperate need to make loads of money to pay my bills.

The comment I made was because you've done nothing but be negative towards me, you haven't actually taken on board anything I've said, you've simply gone on about what I want and how much of a hurry I'm in. Sorry, but it's all rubbish, I'm not 'desperate' or 'in a hurry' to be anything. If anything I've agreed with you on most things. I never questioned your skills, I asked why you personally had to answer every single question when it upsets you, that's all. If people are not asking you personally why do you have to answer? You haven't answered any of my posts asking for help, so it's not as if you are always first in with the support and advice. You don't seem to pay attention to any of that though, you just keep on telling me I'm desperate to be a photographer. I'm keen to learn photography, but be a professional photographer - probably never going to happen. If it turns out I'm good at it then hey, maybe one day, but I don't see why I would be, I'm no artist, and I've never really done it before other than film work and that was 25 years back.

If I had come on and rubbished your advice then fair enough, but I haven't. I've not questioned any of your 'facts' other than the things you keep saying about me as they are pretty innacurate. I also never questioned any of your skills or that you are not lovely to everyone and offered the best advice, I have seen plenty of positive posts from you as I've spent a lot of time reading topics on here. I have no doubt I'd never be good enough to be a photographer, you've made it pretty clear how damn tough it is too - you certainly know how to put people off that's for sure. I'm reading, I'm watching, talking to people, asking for advice and suggestions, and I don't think I'm good or going to be good. I don't see how that is over ambitious, worrying, desperate or any of the other things you say I am. If I'm over ambitious then fair enough, I'll have to live with that label.

I apologise if you feel my post was in anyway rude, but with what you've thrown at me I assumed you were big enough to take a bit of humour and sarcasm. No offence meant, if I'd wanted to be rude I wouldn't have called you something so sweet!

I did genuinely want to ask you for some advice regarding courses but the way this has gone down I don't think it's a good idea eh!

Just to summarise David - I really don't think any of the things you think I think! I never thought I'd wake up tomorrow as 'Super Photographer' with all the skills needed to take on a wedding single handed. I'd never want to photograph a wedding, seems like hell to me, and I don't think I'll ever be a professional - I've only just read the camera manual.

Yep - I've ACTUALLY read the manual, surely that gets me a few points?

 

[TheBigYin]

Bloody hell it took the mods a long time to filter this very worthy debate away from the other thread.

I've not been around until this afternoon...

 

[NDevon]

Okay - I've moved all the off-topic discussion into it's own thread - the Abreviations thread in the beginners section was intended as a simple reference list, not a bunfight about how they should be used, if at all, and it certainly wasn't intended to be another "The nasty professionals are picking on me because I've only owned a camera for 3 days, still can't switch it on, and I've booked 18 weddings" thread...

Not you as well! Why is everyone obsessed with people becoming wedding photographers? Not interested in following stroppy brides round all day thanks, I'm getting married to one myself - that's more than enough weddings for me.

 

[NDevon]

Now it's been moved...


Yes she was simply asking if she should keep her studio open. But offered very little background or justification, which led to...

IIRC some people did find her website, but again IIRC they never simply told her to give up. They gave her some very good business advice (which may have been a little forthright and was admittedly not asked for).

I don't think I commented, but the advice given by Dave (@DG Phototraining ) to update her style so she could raise her prices was absolutely 100% bang on. Business advice is tough to hear sometimes, but (and I speak as someone with experience) running a failing business is totally soul destroying. And if the advice can save someone from the very real heartache of a failed business, that's surely a good thing.

There's no point in a support network that blows smoke up your arse. I'm all for being encouraging, but I also reserve the right to shatter illusions, and if that means shattering dreams too, and if that means people leave the site, then I don't accept responsibility for their unrealistic expectations not being met.

Hope that clarifies.

Bloody hell it took the mods a long time to filter this very worthy debate away from the other thread.

I agree Phil, if that's what she was asking. She wasn't, that's all. There was a guy posting about only having one (I think) bookings for 2017, if someone went and found his website and started to critique it I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been best pleased. Does he deserve it? No idea, but let's be honest there has to be a reason 1 person is fully booked for next year and someone else doesn't have any bookings, it could be one of several thing,s but there is no chance luck comes into it.

I really do know how hard it can be, I'm not ashamed to say I've been there. I've had a failing business, I've had successful businesses, I've been bankrupt, I've been rich, the hardest thing about going bankrupt is admitting it's gone wrong, the next day it all feels a bit easier. I guess I'm a bit different to others, I wouldn't tell someone their business needed sorting unless they asked my opinion. I spent a good few years helping people turn their businesses around, some couldn't be saved and it was best to cut their losses, it was tough to get them to accept it but they had asked my opinion.

I know what you mean about the lady's studio, but what I saw was different to what others saw I guess. I saw a vulnerable stressed woman talking out loud looking for a bit of reassurance. Sure there may not have been a lot to reassure her about, I guess she had it comin to her, but personally I would have asked if she wanted my opinion on her site, business and work, if she said no I'd have left it there. Nobody asked, they told.

That's what I thought was a bit wrong I guess. Maybe it just wasn't my place to comment - I'm new round here obviously. Too many people patrol this world thinking it's their duty to tell others what's wrong with their lives, I used to when I was younger, I'd done well for myself and wanted to tell everyone what they were doing wrong. It wasn't usually welcome advice, but it was always free. Conversely when people were paying me they wanted to know exactly what I thought, I was always honest, but always tried to deliver it so it didn't hurt too much. Ultimately I was often telling people their ideas hadn't worked, their dreams had failed and if they were lucky they may not lose their home.

It's never easy. I'm just a soppy git I guess and don't think people need a life lecture unless they've asked for one - hence this bloody conversation in the first place!

And yea it took them ages to move this... I'm sure I've annoyed most on the forum now, maybe I should leave before I pee off the rest!

 

[Phil V]

I agree Phil, if that's what she was asking. She wasn't, that's all. There was a guy posting about only having one (I think) bookings for 2017, if someone went and found his website and started to critique it I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been best pleased. Does he deserve it? No idea, but let's be honest there has to be a reason 1 person is fully booked for next year and someone else doesn't have any bookings, it could be one of several thing,s but there is no chance luck comes into it.

I really do know how hard it can be, I'm not ashamed to say I've been there. I've had a failing business, I've had successful businesses, I've been bankrupt, I've been rich, the hardest thing about going bankrupt is admitting it's gone wrong, the next day it all feels a bit easier. I guess I'm a bit different to others, I wouldn't tell someone their business needed sorting unless they asked my opinion. I spent a good few years helping people turn their businesses around, some couldn't be saved and it was best to cut their losses, it was tough to get them to accept it but they had asked my opinion.

I know what you mean about the lady's studio, but what I saw was different to what others saw I guess. I saw a vulnerable stressed woman talking out loud looking for a bit of reassurance. Sure there may not have been a lot to reassure her about, I guess she had it comin to her, but personally I would have asked if she wanted my opinion on her site, business and work, if she said no I'd have left it there. Nobody asked, they told.

That's what I thought was a bit wrong I guess. Maybe it just wasn't my place to comment - I'm new round here obviously. Too many people patrol this world thinking it's their duty to tell others what's wrong with their lives, I used to when I was younger, I'd done well for myself and wanted to tell everyone what they were doing wrong. It wasn't usually welcome advice, but it was always free. Conversely when people were paying me they wanted to know exactly what I thought, I was always honest, but always tried to deliver it so it didn't hurt too much. Ultimately I was often telling people their ideas hadn't worked, their dreams had failed and if they were lucky they may not lose their home.

It's never easy. I'm just a soppy git I guess and don't think people need a life lecture unless they've asked for one - hence this bloody conversation in the first place!

And yea it took them ages to move this... I'm sure I've annoyed most on the forum now, maybe I should leave before I pee off the rest!

You're probably right that it's all about perception.

I chose not to get involved on that occasion because whilst I agreed wholeheartedly about the answer to her problems, she'd already had enough 'tough' advice. And whilst she may have been vulnerable and reaching out, I also think she got the absolute right answer. Without the advice she got (or if she fails to heed it) she's got an unhappy 12 months ahead after which she'll almost certainly call it a day.

You should definitely hang around, we don't mind people who rock the boat, we just have to agree to disagree sometimes and to understand that if you ask serious questions, be prepared for serious answers.

Stick around and it'll be interesting to see if your attitude to the 'got a new camera what lens to shoot a wedding' brigade is when you've seen a dozen a year.

As for the guy who only has one wedding booked for next year - his website has been pored over, and he's grateful for all the advice he's had (and yet still frustrated )

 

[NDevon]

Oh I'm not going anywhere Phil - just messing around. I really do have a thick skin, not too much bothers me, and David - you seem like a really good guy, you just have to realise I really don't want to be a wedding photographer and I'm really not in a hurry to be a professional photographer!

That lady's studio, it most likely was the right advice, I didn't have all the financial details but logic says don't pour money down the drain. I think the issue was her husband, if he hadn't been so steadfast in saying she couldn't open another studio she would have closed it ages ago. It's not as if she'd lose much more than the building, she'd still have her kit and could do mobile stuff and still take pics - I agreed with all that. It was just so final for her, end of the dream stuff. There were many possible options, but she didn't want any of them. If she knew she would be allowed to open another studio I'm betting she would have closed it, saved the money and concentrated on her family, enjoyed her photography and actually probably not wanted to open another studio. Once the reality had been accepted it would have seemed easier not to go through it all again. But because she thought it was so final it was a big stumbling block for her.

I guess what I'm saying is she knew everything she was being told, that's why she didn't ask for advice on her business, she knew the answers and she knew the truth would hurt a lot more hearing it from someone else - it absolutely always does. What really needed drumming into her was talk to your other half and get him to agree that in the future you could give it another go.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think that would have allowed her to let go of the studio and be happy and then later down the line she wouldn't want to go through it all again or she will go and get the business training or a business partner and do it properly.

Life is tough, I agree with you about not wanting to dive in and help to convince her to let go, I need to keep out of this stuff as I'd be arguing a different point and getting told off again

 

[Paule23]

Sounds like everyone here is now understanding each other, we're all friends (ish), I propose we (well you, I'm just a late interloper) take it to the pub for further discussion. I'll buy though if you're ever in Glasgow.

 

[NDevon]

Thanks Paul but I couldn't be much further away being in Devon! The sceptical part of me would say that's why you offered...

If anyone comes down this way though and fancies showing me how to use a camera I'll buy the beers!

 

[Pookeyhead]

I'm sorely tempted to ask if I can stick that down as my Signature David...

Knock yourself out