opinions on this beginner studio set?

jonesy_ni said:
"2. Safety. Search this forum and you'll find accounts of lights catching fire, blowing up, dripping burning oil from the capacitors - there may or may not be a risk of electrocution, but for me, the fire risk (especially when used in a house with a carpeted floor and very likely where, unlike a professional studio, there are no fire extinguishers) is enough"

The ONLY time this comes up is if its cheap, if this post had of come up in a post about Bowens, Elinchrom etc with a known name the number "2" would not of been put on a public forum.
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You know, this whole thread would be very funny if people weren't getting so agitated by it.

You seem baffled why somebody would mention safety in regard to lights but not (for example) a bag.....

Buy a cheap bag and it may rip and dump your gear in the mud - or worse on concrete. Buy a cheap tripod and it may trap your finger or collapse and damage your kit. All of these would be regrettable but not disproportionate losses from saving a bunch of money on easily understood items.

When I run training courses (on behalf of Lencarta and others...) one of the points I make is that even a properly manufactured monoblock is probably the most dangerous item of electrical equipment you can come into contact with in a domestic setting. (See also the thread on PAT testing that went on for months...). A badly manufactured head could literally be lethal - not just to the owner but to anybody in the vicinity if it happened to catch fire or explode.

Now the reason you never see that mentioned as a risk for Elinchrom/Bowens etc is that they are properly manufactured and tested. And if they caused a fire then the company that made them wouldn't have a reputation for very long. The brand is literally the guarantee. As well as a trustworthy company disclosing that they have complied with CE rules.

A no name seller of kit under many brands on eBay? Well yes, a fire could damage their reputation. But it would take minutes to create a new identity.

I'm not certain it's a big risk (though IIRC there have been at least 2 users here who found similar kit stopped working abruptly) - but the impact of the use makes it worth considering.

For example, years ago I bought some mains triggers of eBay. A friend who knows far more than I do about these things looked at them and said that they weren't even close to UK regs (something about which wires were connected to the switch). Rather than buy super expensive triggers I swapped to battery ones since I understand the impact of failure would be much less. Without an electrician to explain it to me it would never have occurred to me that switches can be dangerous.
 
Quite a few years ago now I answered a question on www.photo.net, saying that in my view the only lights worth buying in the Uk were Bowens and Elinchrom - which I believe to have been true at that time. I fully accept that a statement like that, and especially from the lighting moderator, has the potential to cause damage but that wasn't my intention, I was just giving an honest opinion, as always.

Quite a long time later I had a phone call from someone who told me that he owns a lighting business called Lencarta. Me mentioned my reply and asked me whether I would be prepared to test his lights and see whether I still held to my views...

Now, professional photographers are a bit like taxi drivers, barristers and tarts, we takes the money and we goes where the punter wants to go, within reason, so I had absolutely no problem testing an unknown make of lights that were only sold on Ebay and which I'd never heard of, as long as they were happy to pay me for my time and were happy that they would get a detailed, honest report of what I actually found.

Well, I did the testing, I gave my report and that was the start of my relationship with Lencarta, which is no longer an unknown brand selling only on Ebay.

When I contributed to this thread I gave my honest opinion, based very largely on my own experiences of cheap Ebay lights, but also based on what several different Lencarta customers have told me about their own experiences of cheap lights. I didn't have any particular brand, or any particular seller in mind and have no wish to cause problems for anyone.

Then, last night, I received 3 rather unpleasant emails from a gentleman who says that he is the seller of the Ebay lights linked to in this thread. I replied to the first two and offered to test a light if he would like to send it to me, and said that I would publish my findings on any photography forum of his choice, if the forum was willing to publish it. His next email made it very clear that he didn't want to do that.

Since then I've looked at the Ebay listing and I can see that there really isn't any point in testing the lights because there is absolutely no useful information in the listing, so as we don't know what the specification is it's impossible to find out whether the lights actually match the specification. The only info I could actually find in the listing is that the lights are 180 watts each (I think he must mean watt-seconds) but if he wants to provide actual info about the specifications/performance then I'm perfectly happy to do the test, measuring the stated performance etc with a flash meter, a colour temperature meter, a timer and an oscilloscope. Matty has made a similar offer. In fact, if everyone is happy We could do the test in my studio with the seller, someone from the admin team of this forum and anyone else who wants to get involved as impartial witnesses. And I'll do it for free.

Just think of the potential publicity value of these tests, assuming of course that they are favourable! This could be the start of another major lighting brand.
 
Michael Sewell said:
It's related to the thread because :
A) The OP requested information about cheap lighting
B) The link I posted was to an article regarding factors that should be taken into account when choosing cheap lighting.
C) The linked article appeared to me to be fairly sensible in regards to the advice given, and was posted on the very site most people would use to purchase cheap lighting equipment.
D) Considering the merry-go-round of this thread, an outside overview regarding the purchase or appraisal before purchase of cheap lighting equipment, seemed a worthwhile link to those who may use the search function for threads or postings regarding cheap lighting equipment. Particularly from fleabay.

As I mentioned earlier, I have a shoot shortly, and not likely to return till around 2200hrs :wave:
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Sorry Michael, I thought you were saying that link in somewhere implied there was danger with the cheapo lights

Michael Sewell said:
:agree:

An oultook many of us took as we started out, and our choice of equipment changed along with our abilities and the amount of income provided by the use of said equipment.
Mind you, when I started, there wasn't quite the mind bending array of cheap equipment so readily available :bonk:
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Thats what I have been saying basically. Different budgets and needs

kiteninja said:
I have a sneaking feeling you work for one of these cheap Chinese knock off flash producers or you flog there **** on ebay I can't quite put my finger on it.
So far all you have done is pick at people knowledge and disregard peoples advice regarding the cheap lights.
I can see how there are no links to evidance that the lights have caught fire or caused burning capacitor acid onto carpets but these are things that can happen if there are no proper safety measures in place & seeing how very few of these super cheap lights have CE approval I would bet money they have no safety guards built in either, no overload safety or thermal managment or overload management. If you knew anything about electronics or safety or had common sense then you would think twice about buying something that could cause you great harm.

Exploading capacitor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8gFgIQl2HI
Capacitor catches fire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWIEVOyNoEA

Very crude videos but this is what could happen inside your cheap lights but they will be using much bigger capcitors so the reaction would be bigger, for me I'd rather save some pennies and pay more.
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I do work with electronics, but I dont work in the studio lighting business and dont sell them either. I have plenty of common sense but I dont assume something is dangerous because its cheap.

JonathanRyan said:
You know, this whole thread would be very funny if people weren't getting so agitated by it.

You seem baffled why somebody would mention safety in regard to lights but not (for example) a bag.....

Buy a cheap bag and it may rip and dump your gear in the mud - or worse on concrete. Buy a cheap tripod and it may trap your finger or collapse and damage your kit. All of these would be regrettable but not disproportionate losses from saving a bunch of money on easily understood items.

When I run training courses (on behalf of Lencarta and others...) one of the points I make is that even a properly manufactured monoblock is probably the most dangerous item of electrical equipment you can come into contact with in a domestic setting. (See also the thread on PAT testing that went on for months...). A badly manufactured head could literally be lethal - not just to the owner but to anybody in the vicinity if it happened to catch fire or explode.

Now the reason you never see that mentioned as a risk for Elinchrom/Bowens etc is that they are properly manufactured and tested. And if they caused a fire then the company that made them wouldn't have a reputation for very long. The brand is literally the guarantee. As well as a trustworthy company disclosing that they have complied with CE rules.

A no name seller of kit under many brands on eBay? Well yes, a fire could damage their reputation. But it would take minutes to create a new identity.

I'm not certain it's a big risk (though IIRC there have been at least 2 users here who found similar kit stopped working abruptly) - but the impact of the use makes it worth considering.

For example, years ago I bought some mains triggers of eBay. A friend who knows far more than I do about these things looked at them and said that they weren't even close to UK regs (something about which wires were connected to the switch). Rather than buy super expensive triggers I swapped to battery ones since I understand the impact of failure would be much less. Without an electrician to explain it to me it would never have occurred to me that switches can be dangerous.
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What gets me about it is that the OP had a link to a set of cheap lights, following advice he decided he wanted to get a better set of lights. Thats great, he's going with a good lighting kit and had the extra money to do so.

If the OP didnt have the extra money and go for a better set of lights he may of taken the unfounded claims that them lights are dangerous and ended up buying none at all. Which would be a shame as I know how enjoyable studio set-ups are even with cheap lights

I bought ebay lights (i dont sell them) think they are brilliant and have plenty of fun with them (as an amateur and it being my hobby thats what its all about for me) and earned a wee bit of cash from them to. I could of bought Lencarta/Elemental/Bowens/Elinchrom if I had the money or thought they would get enough use, but I decided to get cheaper lights.
 
Alan_T said:
wow, what the hell did i start here!
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Lol! I would weigh up your needs, yours proposed use, and your available spending money then get the best you can afford, if the lights on offer are all you can afford and you need them now, then go for it! You will have 100% more strobe, softbox, brolly, grid than before you bought them so that's gotta be a start right!
And don't worry about the big boys with their broncolor and lencarter gear lording it about the place their just gutted they spent tons of cash on the same stuff you can get for pop money LOL!
JOKE! Before you all come round my house with pitchforks and burning torches lol joke
 
jonesy_ni said:
Sorry Michael, I thought you were saying that link in somewhere implied there was danger with the cheapo lights
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Easily done. The written word, without vocal inflection or body language, is easily misinterpreted.

:naughty:
 
A few years ago I had an Elincron 500 head complete with softbox go up in flames in the studio. The moral of this story is that if it's mechanical or electrical then it is prone to failure - it could happen. I have no idea on what the odds are but it happened. it does not necessarily follow that an expensive set of studio flash lights will fare any better.
 
Great read and some good information here.

This is exactly the same as a number of discussions I have had and read about welders.

People ask about cheap welders, a number of which come from china and other such countries. They are often cheaper and have poor specifications. Now for a learner welder the poor equipment hinders them. Of course they have to weigh up the pros and cons and identify what it is they need, but more often than not they are advised to go for an older second hand one from a solid manufacturer, sometimes more expensive than the shiny new non branded one. The reason for this is the performance of the welder. The older second hand ones from a reputable manufacturer have a consistent output and realistic specifications. The result is better welds and it allows the learner welder to really learn about welding, not fighting the rubbish produced by inferior machines. I'm grateful for the honest advice I have received when talking welders, it saves me buying twice, and I'm grateful for the honest advice I receive on here, especially form people like Garry who make a massive effort in providing answers for the hundreds of questions that get asked.

For those that missed the beginning, just substitute welders for flash heads.
 
I used to be a hgv fitter and in one workshop we had this absolutely amazing oil cooled arc welder. Heavy green thing, about two and a half foot high, three foot long and two foot wide, with a circular dial on the top with 1-12 selected with a radial lever that looked almost Victorian lol! It would run all day burning 3mm hard facing rods at its maximum output without a grumble.
I learned how to weld on that beast, after gas welding, brazing and mig (never did any tig) :( and yeah i think i was spoiled but when i used a cheap portable welder for the first time i was shocked at the difference but could still work with it as i had a good level of understanding, had i started out on a cheaper portable i think i would have either ended up really good really quick due to coping with naff equipment or gotten so frustrated and thought it was me not the machine.
I haven't had the same thoughts on lights though. I have a cheap 750w three strobe setup, with all the usual garnish and set and use them at home with no problems. When i am in college i can set up the exact same shot with their lights without any fuss. If mine were cutting out, misfiring or un controllable then i would say yea, there is a difference but i can't see it myself.
Its bowens and elinchrome in college and neewer at home
 
I'm glad you're happy with your kit - but really, it's no different to the difference between pro welding kit and the cheap portable welder.

You could manage with the cheap welder for a couple of reasons. Firstly because you had learned your trade and, to some extent, could use your skill to compensate for the shortcomings of the equipment and secondly (I suspect) because you didn't ask the cheap welder to do anything too ambitious - and it's the same with your lights, except that you probably only have limited skill with lighting.

The lights you have at college have interchangeable light shapers, the ones you have at home don't, in the sense that all that's available for them is a very limited range, and as they have a fixed reflector even the softboxes don't work as well as they should.

The lights you have at college have a wide range of power adjustment, the ones you have at home don't.

The lights you have at college will put out pretty well the same quantity and quality of light every pop, I would be amazed if that applies to the lights you have at home.

The lights you have at college are fan cooled and can run all day. The ones you have at home aren't and can't.

How important are these differences? Well, if you're only using a couple of umbrellas instead of trying to control the light well and to create depth and 'pop' by creating shadow, guessing at the exposure and not even noticing that both the exposure and the colours will vary with every shot, then the differences won't matter for as long as the lights continue to work.

But if you want to do more creative lighting, or if you want to work the lights hard, the differences will be massive.
 
I have a small home set up which have worked flawlessly. But as Garry says they're very limited. I found after a while as with camera kit you outgrow it hence why I've now got some 400 Elementals. The choice of modifiers is wide as they are S fit . The home ones are mainly used for lighting white backgrounds.
 
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these images are part of a continuity test i carried out the other day when a comment was made about fluctuating levels and inconsistency. these are the first set of ten shot consecutively with random intervals to simulate normal shooting conditions. they have only been converted from raw to jpeg and resized. see what you think.
 
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Simon photo said:
these images are part of a continuity test i carried out the other day when a comment was made about fluctuating levels and inconsistency. these are the first set of ten shot consecutively with random intervals to simulate normal shooting conditions. they have only been converted from raw to jpeg and resized. see what you think.
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Well on my monitor no two look the same and quite obviously so - is that what you were expecting? :thinking:

Paul
 
Simon photo said:
these images are part of a continuity test i carried out the other day when a comment was made about fluctuating levels and inconsistency. these are the first set of ten shot consecutively with random intervals to simulate normal shooting conditions. they have only been converted from raw to jpeg and resized. see what you think.
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The first thing I noticed is the fact you're using auto white balance, which is quite interesting. You're likely to get strange fluctuations regardless of which brand of lighting you use.
 
Simon photo said:
ahhhhh, was clicking around the target in camera raw with the whitebalance dropper!!!
forgot to revert
shall i run another test??? im interested now
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If you do, then set your white balance manually to "Flash".
 
Simon photo said:
nope, just overlayed the greycard in photoshop, minor minor difference, not like half a stop or anything
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Well looking again I wouldn't call the difference minor as it's quite obvious without even looking hard - but as long as you're happy, that's all that really matters.

Paul
 
Actually that last statement sounds a bit trite - what I mean is for many the variation in colour and output won't be really that important.

Paul
 
paul williams said:
Well looking again I wouldn't call the difference minor as it's quite obvious without even looking hard - but as long as you're happy, that's all that really matters.

Paul
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ok so i combined four halves in potatoshop as the examples had uneven lighting and probably not the best test carried out on a light in the history of the universe, so these are four seperate images just cut and overlayed
difference.jpg

look pretty much the same to me!!!!
 
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Simon photo said:
yeah........i create a custom white balance setting for every session, very easy on the E3, nearly always comes out at 5700 to 5800 kelvinators lol
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Even with the naked eye I can see a lot more than 100K difference, but it's near enough for people photography.

Can I ask what power setting you used here? My guess is that it was at full power or thereabouts, most of the cheaper lights are far less consistent at lower power settings and also have a wide variation in colour between maximum and minimum power - it might be interesting to check this.

and if i really need to use Bowens light shapers that desperately, i can!
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Up to a point yes, but if you use it with a softbox or a beauty dish you still have the problem that the light doesn't spread properly, because you still have the built in reflector. And, used with a beauty dish (even if it can handle the weight) the light will be in the wrong place because of the depth of the adapter.
 
Simon photo said:
ahhhhh, was clicking around the target in camera raw with the whitebalance dropper!!!
forgot to revert
shall i run another test??? im interested now
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Getting interested myself, but I dont know if I could be bothered!

Garry Edwards said:
Can I ask what power setting you used here? My guess is that it was at full power or thereabouts, most of the cheaper lights are far less consistent at lower power settings and also have a wide variation in colour between maximum and minimum power - it might be interesting to check this.
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Is there a reasonably easy and not too time consuming way to do a test Garry that would show up colour problems in your opinion? I would be interested in a little experiment
 
i ran a test across the power range, these were at the lowest setting, the meter reading was f5.6 200th ISO100 the results were consistent across the range. like i said, i would be happy to run a test with any requests, you guys know your stuff and it would be interesting to find out your opinion on these.
i have soft boxes, barndoor, honeycomb grid white brolly, silver brolly.
if i am using soft boxes, are you saying that the "pie dish" reflector behind the flash tube is causing problems?
 
Simon photo said:
if i am using soft boxes, are you saying that the "pie dish" reflector behind the flash tube is causing problems?
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They can't be that bad if Mr Kipling is supplying the reflectors!
 
jonesy_ni said:
Getting interested myself, but I dont know if I could be bothered!



Is there a reasonably easy and not too time consuming way to do a test Garry that would show up colour problems in your opinion? I would be interested in a little experiment
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Basically just photograph a neutral subject such as a grey or white wall - doesn't matter which as long as the exposure set gives a grey result. I would take a series of 10 shots, one after the other as soon as the recycling beep has gone off. To get meaningful results the test really needs to be done at full, half, 1/4 and 1/8th power settings. The only scientific way of doing it involves a colour temperature meter, but looking at the shots in either Lightroom or Photoshop gives a useful indication.
if i am using soft boxes, are you saying that the "pie dish" reflector behind the flash tube is causing problems?
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Yes, the reflector prevents the light from spreading out and bouncing off the sides of the softbox, which it needs to do.
 
jonesy_ni said:
Getting interested myself, but I dont know if I could be bothered!

Is there a reasonably easy and not too time consuming way to do a test Garry that would show up colour problems in your opinion? I would be interested in a little experiment
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To check colour variation, shoot one at full power, and one at min. Make sure you pre set white balance for flash, not AWB. The min power shot will be warmer.

Power output changes are most noticeable at minimum power. Shoot ten pictures in succession and you'll notice at least something. I've seen anything from +/- 0.3, which is bad, to almost nothing. And price doesn't seem to be a very reliable guide.

Also check the recycle time by shooting immediately the beeper sounds, and then giving it an extra second. Often makes quite a difference as the beeper often sounds on 70% charge.

FWIW, I've tested what I think was a re-badged e-bay set (badged Proline, but I think made by Neewer as many are, 300Ws) and they weren't at all bad. Certainly very usable. The main problem with them was the price, £350 at retail for a two head kit, which puts them right up against some tough opposition.

But the three head kit linked in the OP for £140, although not the same as the Proline kit I reviewed and with much lower power, but, well, for £140 it looks like pretty good value! It wouldn't be my choice at all, and I'd rather spend more to get more, but if you can live within its limitations and accept that it's not the most robust in the world and there are some reliability issues reported, you might well get a lot of good sessions out of it.

Edit: crossed post with Garry
 
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Cheers Garry and Hoppy

If anyone fancies trying this out then prob best starting up a new thread as I don't think anyone has the actual lights the OP asked about.

I will prob give it a try later on tonight
 
Simon photo said:
the lencarta, smart flash and elites have metallic reflectors behind the flash tube???????
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Being behind the flash tube isn't the issue it is that the inbuilt reflector is shrouding the tube to the sides and thus already modifying the light. As a consequence putting another reflector on the front is just that putting one reflector over another - obviously not a problem with snoots, barndoors and the like.

Paul
 
paul williams said:
Being behind the flash tube isn't the issue it is that the inbuilt reflector is shrouding the tube to the sides and thus already modifying the light. As a consequence putting another reflector on the front is just that putting one reflector over another - obviously not a problem with snoots, barndoors and the like.

Paul
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ahhhhhh right im with you
yeah see what you mean now wonder if i can do anything about that????hmmmm
 
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