Parabolic umbrellas (flatter not deep) - anyone experimented ?

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MidnightUK

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Any useful comments or experience on using the shallower parabolic umbrellas?
I thought I might have a play with one and am wondering how others put them to use?
 
Parabolic can be but does not have to be deep. Satellite dishes for example are parabolic.
 
Graham W said:
to be properly Parabolic the umbrella would have to be deep.
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Possibly, seems something of a debate on this on the net. Its what the companies call them - I am not fussed to be honest how accurate that is or not, just curious what others are finding them good for. They are affordable if you shop around, and they pack down small and fast.

Interested in possibilities for fill light or group shots maybe.
 
MidnightUK said:
Interested in possibilities for fill light or group shots maybe.
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I would have thought if they did work as true parabolic, they would focus the light and be less use for fill or large groups?

Or have I got that wrong?

For fill or larger groups isn't a big reflective brolly the easy / cheap option?
 
Phil V said:
if they did work as true parabolic, they would focus the light and be less use for fill or large groups?
Or have I got that wrong?
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I have seen comments about using them as such - thought I would check out experiences here. Not having tried one out yet myself, you could be wrong or right!

One of the plus points in the 'parabolic' ones look well constructed.

This guy claims to use them for groups, but I don't know much about him
http://www.robgalbraith.com/multi_pagebb9d.html?cid=7-10046-10396
 
Phil V said:
I would have thought if they did work as true parabolic, they would focus the light and be less use for fill or large groups?

Or have I got that wrong?
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I've got a big deep one. They only focus the light as a parallel beam (approximately) if the flash is mounted at the focal point. As you move the flash away from the focal point the beam spreads, but never nearly as widely as the beam from a diffuse white brolly. It takes some careful experiment to locate the flash head at the nearest approximation to the focal point, which in fact you can't quite manage because the stick gets in the way. For a symmetrical beam a pair of flashes strapped together with the stick in the middle might be better. {It would be definitely better if the brolly was perfectly parabolic, which it isn't.) :)

For fill or larger groups isn't a big reflective brolly the easy / cheap option?
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It's much the better option. The virtues of a silvered parabolic reflector are that you can beam a lot of light a long distance, or alternatively that you can light something close with a parallelish beam, which will therefore throw parallel shadows as though lit from a distance. Plus the general sharper quality of light from a silvered rather than a white diffuse reflector. In other words although it may be a big brolly, the quality of light is more akin to that from a small source. That will highlight skin irregularities compared to a diffuse light source of the same size. That's usually unpopular with women :)

However if you want to impress people with your whizzo expensive photographic gear a big parabolic looks very impressive :)
 
There are a lot of umbrellas sold as parabolic, there are also a lot of softboxes sold as parabolic. All it means is that it focuses the light and depending how far you are from the umbrella determines the way it focuses, now to the issue, how can you focus with a rear mounted light which is the way that many parabolic softboxes are sold

Mike
 
IMHO, parabolic is nothing more than a meaningless marketing term when it's applied to a shallow umbrella. In shallow profile, a parabola is very close to a sphere - certainly less different than the irregularities inherent to an umbrella. And unless the light is a) at the focus position (surprisingly close to the surface), and b) is radiating light evenly over at least 180 degrees as a point light source, it cannot work as a parabolic anyway.

Those big, deep, and expensive parabolic umbrellas with an adjustable point light source are entirely different animals.
 
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Thanks to everyone who has posted so far.

Could we perhaps now move on to what people are using these for (if anything) ?

I dont actually mind if they are true parabolic or not - I wish to know what you do actually use them for successfully! :) Or is the bottom line that they have no photographic value at all, in any way, and should just be thrown in the bin?

If anyone has sample images to post, that would be great. Of something that worked, not of someone throwing umbrellas into a bin :)
 
HoppyUK said:
IMHO, parabolic is nothing more than a meaningless marketing term when it's applied to a shallow umbrella. In shallow profile, a parabola is very close to a sphere - certainly less different than the irregularities inherent to an umbrella. And unless the light is a) at the focus position (surprisingly close to the surface), and b) is radiating light evenly over at least 180 degrees as a point light source, it cannot work as a parabolic anyway.

Those big, deep, and expensive parabolic umbrellas with an adjustable point light source are entirely different animals.
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That's the way I understand it, I knew someone would be along to explain it properly. :)
 
MidnightUK said:
Thanks to everyone who has posted so far.

Could we perhaps now move on to what people are using these for (if anything) ?

I dont actually mind if they are true parabolic or not - I wish to know what you do actually use them for successfully! :) Or is the bottom line that they have no photographic value at all, in any way, and should just be thrown in the bin?

If anyone has sample images to post, that would be great. Of something that worked, not of someone throwing umbrellas into a bin :)
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As I said i just regard it as a big umbrella. Any parabolicity (I'm making up words as I go along.) is incidental. I tend to use it "On location" when I can't be carting lots of stuff around.
I think this was the last time I used it. It probably doesn't tell you much, I like my lighting subtle. :)
_DSC3301-Edit.jpg
 
The shape of the reflector's radius is less relevant than the position/distance of the light source. If the source is close to the reflector it will project rays that are more parallel, converging at some point near infinity (parabolic). As the source is moved farther away the reflected rays will start to converge nearer to the source (ellipsoidal). And once the source is at the center of the radius the reflected rays will converge/cross at the source point (spherical). The actual shape of the radius is more of a "refinement" and only works as designed with a fixed source distance.

The point of a true parabolic is that the light pattern from it is the same irregardless of the distance from the subject.
None of this really matters if you put diffusion over it... the diffusion material is your new source (multiple sources). In that case the only difference shape/distance makes is in how even the diffusion material is illuminated.
 
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MidnightUK said:
I dont actually mind if they are true parabolic or not - I wish to know what you do actually use them for successfully! :) Or is the bottom line that they have no photographic value at all, in any way, and should just be thrown in the bin?
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I don't have a shallow one, but the question isn't really "what can they do?" but rather more "what do you need it to do?" Almost any light source can be used effectively for some purpose...even a really "crappy"/uneven one. And if there is enough scattering or diffusion stages you can even just about anything out...shape/depth won't affect it much other than "efficiency."

A parabolic "reflecting source" needs to be deep to increase efficiency and minimize spill as it is reflecting light from a source radiating at 180* or more. A parabolic "reflecting receiver" (i.e. sat dish) doesn't need to be deep as it is receiving rays that are effectively parallel... extra depth doesn't really do anything (but a larger diameter does).

So, what do you want one for, and why? If you just want a larger modifier to use in space limited situations, and it's going to be used diffused, then go for it... it can almost certainly be made to work well enough.
 
Thanks Graham for posting your image. Helpful.



sk66 said:
"what do you need it to do?"
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I am trying gradually to build up a comprehensive, adaptable lighting kit made up of easily storable modifiers that take up minimal space and require minimal assembly. I have a largish softbox which fits those terms, but ideally at this point in time I personally don't want any more softboxes. An umbrella takes up a lot less space when storage is tight. Its also light and portable. It might also hopefully be an added 'look'. Whether that look is worthwhile or not is harder for me to estimate

I have not seen many images labelled as being done with a 'para' brolly. Mostly images posted are done with the massive deep ones from high end pro photographers who can afford such things and who have a load of space in the studio to house them. So such sample photos are family useless for my research purposes. I am not looking to replicate that look anyway as I realise the deep bodied modifiers are somewhat different in effect.

Gaps in my array are a big light source and also any coverage for groups. I used to assist someone who did quite a few groups or people in lines (dancers, stage, indoor stuff) and he used to use white shoot through 60" umbrellas His results were OK but I felt he lost a lot of light with it bouncing back from the umbrellas into the space behind the photographer. Any wall behind him would usually be a long way off as performance areas tend to be biggish. This meant he was still low on light that was 'usable' and quite often this lack could become critical and problematic I am thinking I would like to have kit to cover group shoots and had been thinking perhaps silvered umbrellas instead, to drive more of the light forward and get slightly more directionality.

Then as I wandered the internet pricing up and wondering if and where to go with this, I came across some affordable silver 'parabolics' that look more stoutly built than most umbrellas. The general internet view seems to be (fully parabolic or not) that the are sightly more controllable as the light spread is narrower to some degree, more than that of a standard brolly anyway.

I have also come across the idea that an elasticated diffuser can be slipped over the front, bringing them back to a more diffuse umbrella look or making them into something along the lines of an octobox. If this is true, then I would be getting along the lines of 3 modifiers in a very compact form when stored or moved to locations.

Its also a cheapish way of looking at larger light sources. I had thought if i go head with this, that I might also look at trying out a home made diffuser for the front as I have stuff kicking around here that I could try out the additional effect with initially, with no immediate additional expense on the cost of the brolly. If it seems worthwhile, maybe buying a formal proper diffuser later.

I thought I would ask people on here, despite my search of the internet, as I am more familiar with the people who post here and their standard of work.
 
Have a look at Lencarta Folding Beauty Dishes. Sizes 60, 80 and 120cm, in silver or white, with a detachable parabolic deflector, detachable double-diffusers, and grid. Well made, easy to put up and fold away into a nice bag. They offer a lot of versatility in a single unit https://www.lencarta.com/studio-lighting/beauty-dish-for-studio-flash

Also consider umbrella-softboxes, like Phottix Para-Pro with detachable diffuser, and others https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Electron...350&sr=1-2&keywords=phottix+umbrella+diffuser
 
I did some crude calculations based on published dimensions for a number of commonly available 'parabolic' reflectors. Most of them wouldn't have put the light anywhere near the focal point, nor functioned as a parabolic reflector. The Elinchrom deep octa and Profoto Umbrella deep were notable exceptions.

The cheapo reflective brolly / softbox combo I bought from eBay before I knew what I was doing actually functions quite well as a parabolic reflector. Though when I compare the results from that with those from a large octa with just the inner diffuser fitted I struggle to see much difference. I'd add a grid if I wanted to narrow the beam.

I'd still like to play with one of the really big paras, though :)
 
redsnappa said:
Parabolic can be but does not have to be deep. Satellite dishes for example are parabolic.
Click to expand...
Usually they are a section of the side of the parabola, so they don't need to be angled upwards as much and don't collect the elements and dirt. That's the reason the antenna in the focal point seems to sit off-centre.

If you took a "flat parabolic" umbrella and put the light-source in its focal point, a lot of the light just wouldn't hit the umbrella. So ... pretty much just a normal umbrella.
 
MidnightUK said:
Gaps in my array are a big light source and also any coverage for groups.
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I like the idea of the 120cm BD with sock and honeycomb... that would be a very versatile modifier of good size, and BD's tend to be shallower for their size.

As far as the larger groups go, it's not so much about size but rather power/qtty. Once you place a modifier more than about 3x as far away there is little point to using it... that would require a VERY large modifier for a large group. You will almost certainly be better off using multiple unmodified sources.
 
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juggler said:
When I want a really large light source I either use a silk or I bounce the light off something large and flat, but then I don't often need portability. The commercially available collapsible frames are expensive but it should be possible to DIY something.

This might be useful, too: http://profoto.com/blog/portrait-photography-2/white-silver-translucent-umbrella-deep/
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Lighting a silk is a great option... especially if you use a smaller modifier behind it (situation dependent). It's easy to make a portable/collapsible frame from 1" PVC tube.

http://photographic-academy.com/tips-and-tricks/99-tips-and-tricks/144-diy-4x6-multi-panel
 
MidnightUK said:
Glad you said that. I do indeed feel an urge to play with something a bit different, human curiosity I guess :)
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I totally understand... my lighting has been all over the place and back again, and I've played with as many modifiers as I could get my hands on.

It's often said - usually by folk who haven't taken their own advice - that's it's worth wringing every last drop out of a single modifier before getting any more. It's only recently that I've tried to do that. I don't think I've seen any of your work but if you just want _different_ I'd encourage you to do the same.

e.g. same modifier, same model, very different results:

https://flic.kr/p/PFETC7
https://flic.kr/p/PZX9Tt
 
juggler said:
It's often said - usually by folk who haven't taken their own advice - that's it's worth wringing every last drop out of a single modifier before getting any more.
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That'd be my vice :(

Mostly because I like studio work, but it's not 'what I do'.
 
The trouble with the shallow "parabolic" umbrellas is that the point of focus is quite far away from the face of them making it difficult to get the light close to the subject - either the light head or the feet of the stand end up in the way. You can pull them back but at a distance you may as well use normal umbrellas.

On the rare occasions mine get used, I use exactly as if they were normal umbrellas and I can't say I've noticed any difference in how they light. When I want focused light on regular subjects i use beauty dishes & honeycomb grids, and if I want to flood a large area with sharp light from a huge source I occasionally use a traditional parabolic.
 
juggler said:
It's often said - usually by folk who haven't taken their own advice - that's it's worth wringing every last drop out of a single modifier before getting any more. It's only recently that I've tried to do that. I don't think I've seen any of your work but if you just want _different_ I'd encourage you to do the same.
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Wise advice and thanks for it. I am aware that now is the most viable time personally for me to collect together modifiers as it is likely over the next couple of years it will become difficult for me to do so, with other financial priories kicking in. I don't want to go too mad, just get a decent small collection that is adaptable and which will cope with a wide range of tasks. I promise not to try to use every one in a single shoot :eek:;).

Most of my studio stuff was done while assisting. People I assisted tended to have a rule that I could take images and suggest or carry out ideas for images/lighting during or after a shoot but I was not to post any images I took in any public way. I was not worried about that as it was a great learning experience both good and bad! I am not assisting at the moment but trying to get my own kit together, which is taking quite a while, plus other factors are in play.
 
I have continued to research the large flatter 'parabolics' in the last few days and have found a few links showing comparisons of area coverage and speed of light fall off in relation to normal umbrellas and also some sample images of these shallow parabolics in use.

Around 4 mins into this video is a demo of coverage of a standard silvered umbrella with a shallow parabolic. They are different sizes, but at the beginning of the video there is an explanation about size of modifier being less relevant in some ways than perhaps one would expect. There are also comparison portraits towards the end of the video. (The same folk also do this type of video for softboxes and octobanks)

Umbrellas 101 - Photography & Video Tutorial - Slanted Lens
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0bFax2ZCIY
 
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Links to sample work and setups for shallow parabolics

Outdoor musician shoot
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/News/News-Post.aspx?News=15118

Orchestra, Ariel hoop acrobat and various other shoots
The shallow parabolic stuff is part way down the page.
http://www.markkitaoka.com/latest-news/using-light-modifiers

Interior architecture and furnishings
http://sveneselgroth.com/a-gun-for-hire-confesses-a-love-and-lights-up-on-the-inside


juggler said:
I'd still like to play with one of the really big paras, though :)
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Juggler, not huge, but the acrobat link above might be of curiosity value to you, given your own subjects. I have mixed views about some of the images in the links I have posted. Quite like the orchestra group though, as I had been looking for group capacity.
 
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MidnightUK said:
Links to sample work and setups for shallow parabolics

Outdoor musician shoot
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/News/News-Post.aspx?News=15118

Orchestra, Ariel hoop acrobat and various other shoots
The shallow parabolic stuff is part way down the page.
http://www.markkitaoka.com/latest-news/using-light-modifiers

Interior architecture and furnishings
http://sveneselgroth.com/a-gun-for-hire-confesses-a-love-and-lights-up-on-the-inside



Juggler, not huge, but the acrobat link above might be of curiosity value to you, given your own subjects. I have mixed views about some of the images in the links I have posted. Quite like the orchestra group though, as I had been looking for group capacity.
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Thanks for that - it's exactly why I'd like to play with large paras. Acrobats tend to make much wider shapes than most subjects, and I tend to light from the side for drama. To avoid too much fall off across the body the light source has to be a fair distance away - with the consequent loss in power and problems of light going everywhere. At the moment I tend to use carefully feathered strip boxes or large octas with just the inner diffuser and sometimes a grid.

fwiw it looks to me as though he hasn't got the lights terribly well positioned in those paras. If they were functioning as true parabolics then I wouldn't expect to see a bright spot in the centre like that. Or maybe they're not truly parabolic? But as I've said, the only para I've played with is a much smaller brolly so I may be speaking out of my proverbial.

I don't rate the lighting on the orchestra group at all, I rather suspect that the para was the wrong tool for the job. But again I've little experience of shooting that kind of thing; maybe he's done the best he could have.
 
juggler said:
I don't rate the lighting on the orchestra group at all, I rather suspect that the para was the wrong tool for the job. But again I've little experience of shooting that kind of thing; maybe he's done the best he could have.
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Interested, what do you see that I am missing (bound to be the elephant in the room :rolleyes: )

I had not expected them to be used in the room/furniture lighting.
 
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Calumet do a large brolly but hedge around it being 'parabolic' or not, though when seen on a display it looks much the same shape as the ones claimed to be shallow parabolics. Its not too bad a price for these very large umbrellas when they are doing one of thier frequent 30% off calumet brands offers. It looks well built.

They claim "Its 16-panel design and deep profile creates a pleasing round catchlight and allows you to reposition your light source along the shaft for additional light control." but I guess that could be said of any umbrella.

Calumet 65" Silver/Black Umbrella
https://www.calphoto.co.uk/product/Calumet-65-Silver/Black-Umbrella/AU32650

there is also a smaller 16 panel one, but the site photo is misleading so it looks less panelled and shallower than it is in life.
Calumet 52" Silver/Black Umbrella
https://www.calphoto.co.uk/product/Calumet-52-Silver/Black-Umbrella/AU32520

Ah well, I shall continue my wavering and defer going this or any large umbrella route until I feel more certain. I have been given an Amazon voucher for Xmas... another crisis to deal with :rolleyes: took me months to spend the last one before going for some 7" grids. Choosing the right stuff seems even harder when effectively spending someone else's money, not something to make a mistake with.

 
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I thought the first couple of photos might be helpful to someone. The rest is prob not a lot of use unless you have access to buying Paul Buff equipment, which is mainly USA.
 
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