NSFW Photojournalist slammed for not intervening

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Grayman

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The link below leads to some shocking pictures of a man being stabbed in an alleged xenophobic attack - part of many such attacks which is sadly taking place across South Africa.

The photojournalist, James Oatway, has received a lot of online abuse for not intervening when the attack took place. I have been having many a debate with some of my friends as to whether he should have got involved or not.

My reply has been:

Why does the expectation/responsibility to help fall on him? What was he to do? Intervene and get stabbed himself? That is not his job and in reality how many others who were unarmed would intervene in that situation. He took the victim to hospital and recorded as much evidence that he possibly could - which is likely to help ensure at least some justice is done. Based on my experience having worked in such environments I would confidently say very few people would in the attack itself, no matter what they might say from behind a computer.

Interested to know what others think. I put a prefix of NSFW as some people might be disturbed by the images.
http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2015/04/19/kill-thy-neighbour-alex-attack-brings-home-sa-s-shame1
 
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Its difficult and I always wonder what i would do in a similar situation and to be honest I couldn't truthfully say, I know how I hope I would act but unless your actually in that situation no one can be certain. Personally I think the guy did what he could and as much as anyone probably could under the circumstances.

Now whether he should have taken the picture, then that is another matter, although again it is useful in identifying the perpetrators, and isnt too exploititive
 
Personally I don't have an issue with him taking the pictures, after all that is what his job is. Recording such issues is very often unpleasant but in my mind such images need to be captured. There is no difference to viewing those images than there is to viewing other images on the news.
 
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I think you put you here," Why does the expectation/responsibility to help fall on him?" ,I think its the old case" Dont shoot the messaged "
 
Grayman said:
Recording such issues is very often unpleasant but in my mind such images need to be captured.
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Why? Dont get me wrong I'm not arguing one way or the other, I just wonder why they need to be captured
 
The way I was brought up ,a man never hits a woman ,or do you stand idly by and watch someone getting bullied ,years ago I would willingly step in to stop this sort of thing happening ,BUT 15 years of driving a night taxi and realising what scumbags the majority of the population are cured me of that ,especially when they have had a drink to many or snorted white s*** up there nostrils .a good mate of mine who is even bigger than me and a ex marine commando also gave up on the same job due to the same reasons .
These days just watch and give a statement afterwards if asked is the safest route
 
jakeblu said:
Why? Dont get me wrong I'm not arguing one way or the other, I just wonder why they need to be captured
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Because it's documenting something important, something which impacts on society and the country. Were such things not to be documented then society quickly forgets.
 
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jakeblu said:
Why? Dont get me wrong I'm not arguing one way or the other, I just wonder why they need to be captured
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To help stop history repeating itself.

The photo's also identify the attackers

because everyone needs to know what atrocities go on outside of our little island.

Could you imagine a world without pictures of Vietnam or of WW2, Hiroshima, Death camps and more recently ISIS throwing a gay guy off a building.

I could go on but you should get the idea
 
mattyg said:
because everyone needs to know what atrocities go on outside of our little island.
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No they don't... Why on earth do you think that.. I would be quite happy to be born.. live a happy life and die.. wihtout worryign whats happening to people in other parts of the world.. where do you draw the line.. are we supposed to know about every bad thing that happens in the world.. we couldnt even begin to take it all in there so much.. or is someone going to decide what bad bit we learn about..
 
Grayman said:
Because it's documenting something important, something which impacts on society and the country. Were such things not to be documented then society quickly forgets.
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Nothing to do with selling said images to news outlets the world over, of course.
Photojournalists aren't philanthropic angels intent on exposing the ills of the world, they're in business to make money just like anyone else.
I'm not saying it's a bad thing, nor condemning those who do it, but nor do I class them as heroes.
They choose to put themselves in harms way and I'm sure for the good ones the renumeration is worthwhile.
 
mattyg said:
To help stop history repeating itself.
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Yeah, that'll do it

If there is nothing we can do about the atrocities then we are nothing more than voyeurs when we view such photos. I paraphrase, but its still true

I could go on but I'm sure you get the picture ;)
 
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In the UK I might step in, I've never been confronted by a knife though. I have stood up to a group of 10 kicking someone's head whilst they were on the floor and guarded that person (with others) and stopped \ intervened in other fights, got a lady's phone back off a mugger. It's always happened in relatively busy places apart from the mugger one where perhaps you subconsciously feel safer. I've found in one person steps in, others often do. I possibly would not intervene if I had my kids with me, but I'd certainly worse case call the police

In this situation it is perhaps different, different country, different issues going - a tough one, I'm not sure I'd intervene directly, though I might try and speak to the person, though when people are in this sort of insane rage I'm not sure they would listen and you would certainly put yourself at risk.

As a general rule I think people should interject more, and if everyone did, we'd all be in a better place - but some people would come to harm doing it.

I do remember watching a documentary on Tim Ethrington, he was following an armed group in Africa during a civil war, who suddenly decided on of the doctors was a spy for the other side and were about to shoot him. He intervened and saved the man's life. I'm sure there were many situations where he could not, but he certainly put himself at risk at that point and intervened.

As mentioned above photographers will often get some abuse for this, when everyone else around them stands around doing nothing. It must be an unbelievably awkward situation - the reality you would hope in many occasions is that the photo would save more lives due to the reaction it would get and would be more likely to bring those who committed the crime to justice.

I for one could not criticise him, he's put himself in a difficult situation to report on something horrific happening, which is no doubt more than most people having a go at him. Maybe they should share their anger a bit more at the people committing these crimes and those not doing enough to stop them.
 
I know Alex, and my daughter does volunteer work at the SPCA there. It's quite a dangerous place if you don't know your way around, and the areas to avoid, and I'm reluctant to even go there unarmed. Oatway did what he could, but criticising him for failing to get involved/intervene when this happened is naive in the extreme. As a white guy, he'd probably have been lucky to get away with his life.

There are about 50 murders/day in South Africa, that the police know about, and the death of a Mozambican man - who may well have been an illegal immigrant - isn't going to cause a great deal of angst. The SAPS are incompetent, corrupt and known to be complicit in crime, so I don't expect them to do anything about this. Notice the killer's apparent indifference to being photographed?

King Goodwill Zwelithini has much to answer for but, again, won't face any consequences. Cry the beloved country...
 
i think the issue for me is the three photos he has taken after the attack has finished. Ok so he's snapping away whilst it is happening and you can debate one way or another whether he should himself get involved. But those three shots (and there are probably more) of the guy laying there dying after they have gone. Ummmm not cool inmo.

The article says they rushed him to hospital - what they mean is - they rushed him to hospital AFTER capturing the shots of him dying after the attack. Those few minutes might have been paramount to saving his life.

That's the part that I dont think was the best idea personally
 
CanonDjango said:
i think the issue for me is the three photos he has taken after the attack has finished. Ok so he's snapping away whilst it is happening and you can debate one way or another whether he should himself get involved. But those three shots (and there are probably more) of the guy laying there dying after they have gone. Ummmm not cool inmo.

The article says they rushed him to hospital - what they mean is - they rushed him to hospital AFTER capturing the shots of him dying after the attack. Those few minutes might have been paramount to saving his life.

That's the part that I dont think was the best idea personally
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Minutes? Seconds at the most.
 
purpleclouds said:
Minutes? Seconds at the most.
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you know that how?

look at where the attack happened and then look at where the last photos are - they aren't even the same place. I watched an interview and the photographer said that the man walked along for a while to get away from the scene. It looks much more likely that we are talking minutes here, not seconds
 
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Where is the line drawn then? Is it his responsibility to take the man to hospital? It's miracle enough that a stranger even bothered to take him to hospital - dead or alive, especially in SA (having worked as a police officer in such areas I can say that with certainty). Perhaps an ambulance had already been called and its arrival was being waited on?
 
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James Oatway has given an interview explaining his side of the incident.

Sithole was attacked by at least two men, who were armed with a monkey wrench and knife, on an Alexandra street on Saturday morning. Although Oatway and reporter Beauregard Tromp tried to get Sithole to medical assistance, he later succumbed to his wounds. Oatway has come under fire for photographing the incident instead of intervening and trying to prevent the assault.

But Oatway told Radio 702’s John Robbie on Monday morning, that he had done everything he could to help Sithole at the time.

“The one regret that I have was that the first clinic that we took him to, which was just up the road, weren’t equipped to treat him and we did lose some valuable time taking him out of the car there, taking him into the clinic and then the nurses told us that there’s no doctor there. They patched – they put a gauze dressing on his wound – and then we put him back in the car, but that whole process took about 10 minutes,” he said.
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Actual radio interview is at the link.

http://www.thedailyvox.co.za/photog...ures-of-murdered-mozambican-emmanuel-sithole/
 
Grayman said:
Perhaps an ambulance had already been called and its arrival was being waited on?
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No it wasn't. The reporter and his team took him to the hospital.

After he took some photos of him lying in the dirt. Dying
 
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I love how we've all got these nice shiny cameras and now everything is photographable regardless of the privacy or dignity of our fellow human beings and god help anyone who would tell you otherwise, we have rights as photographers dont you know.
 
I think he did the best he can do, he also has a responsibility to his wife and family etc to stay alive.
If he had been in a war photographing would he have been expected to pick up a weapon and join the fight? No, because its not his role, neither is he a police man or law enforcement. He is merely a camera on legs. with a bit of luck the pictures he took can bring justice to him and his family.
 
jakeblu said:
I love how we've all got these nice shiny cameras and now everything is photographable regardless of the privacy or dignity of our fellow human beings and god help anyone who would tell you otherwise, we have rights as photographers dont you know.
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I can only reiterate what I wrote in post 4

I've been privileged to hear him talk, show and discuss his work.
 
Byker28i said:
I can only reiterate what I wrote in post 4

I've been privileged to hear him talk, show and discuss his work.
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It wasnt actually a remark aimed at him but at the general perception that anything and everything is photographable and the indignity some feel when they are told otherwise.

Also he's a photojournalist, its his job, he probably works on automatic and only later realised he was taking the shots, well I hope so anyway.
 
exactly that, plus the areas he works in means he's known and at times a possible target.
 
jakeblu said:
It wasnt actually a remark aimed at him but at the general perception that anything and everything is photographable and the indignity some feel when they are told otherwise.

Also he's a photojournalist, its his job, he probably works on automatic and only later realised he was taking the shots, well I hope so anyway.
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Thats what happen a lot, your photojournalist instincts kick in and sometimes it what can get you killed,because you see the camera as some sought of barrier between and whats going on about you.
 
CanonDjango said:
you know that how?

look at where the attack happened and then look at where the last photos are - they aren't even the same place. I watched an interview and the photographer said that the man walked along for a while to get away from the scene. It looks much more likely that we are talking minutes here, not seconds
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How far is away from the scene? 50ft to the road corner? Half a mile? Pure speculation.
 
CanonDjango said:
But saying he only waited seconds was the absolute truth?

What you have just posted makes you a hypocrite
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Oatway took him to a nearby medical centre, where there was no doctor as he'd fled due to violence against immigrants, ironically. It took the nurses around 10 minutes to patch up the wounds. Having been stabbed in the heart his fate was pretty much sealed well before Oatway snapped him crawling in the gutter. A tragic set of circumstances, that wouldn't have been changed by the lack of 30 seconds, one minute.. maybe even two minutes of little to no assistance.

Had Oatway not been there, he'd probably have died in the street having received zero medical attention and certainly next to none media attention. His murderers could well still be on the run, as their faces wouldn't have been plastered in the world's press.

Truthfully, if it'd have been me stood there with my camera, I'd have scarpered rather sharpish without having fired a frame. To question Oatway's actions from behind your keyboard is quite frankly, pointless.
 
purpleclouds said:
A tragic set of circumstances, that wouldn't have been changed by the lack of 30 seconds, one minute.. maybe even two minutes of little to no assistance.
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You are missing the point.

Oatway did not know that whilst he was snapping him lying in the dirt. It could have been the two minutes that saved his life.

Next time I hope he thinks more carefully
 
CanonDjango said:
You are missing the point.

Oatway did not know that whilst he was snapping him lying in the dirt. It could have been the two minutes that saved his life.

Next time I hope he thinks more carefully
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If he stood there and thought, that's further seconds or minutes wasted. Then again, maybe he did think. Maybe he thought, "heck, I best not be seen to be helping the poor chap, it might be my turn next." Have you ever witnessed someone being stabbed to death? Care to enlighten us to your thought process at the time? No, me either. Like I said, from behind your keyboard..
 
CanonDjango said:
You are missing the point.

Oatway did not know that whilst he was snapping him lying in the dirt. It could have been the two minutes that saved his life.

Next time I hope he thinks more carefully
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Surely under your 'rules' the point to save his life was at the point of the attack.

As written by the journalist BEAUREGARD TROMP who was there.

Suddenly a young man dressed in a grey tracksuit jacket beat him over the head with a wrench. The red-shirt man tried to fend off the blows, his arms raised. He stumbled back, falling into rubbish strewn by the roadside. The blows with the wrench rained down. Then the bludgeoning stopped and the man with the wrench moved away.

"Are we safe here?" asked a South African woman watching the attack.

The man in the red shirt got up. Now another man with a beige spottie approached, holding an okapi knife high above his head. Again, the man in the red shirt raised his hands, pleading for mercy. But his pleas were in vain. He was stabbed ... again and again.
The two grappled and fell to the floor. The man with the wrench returned. Finally, a lanky young man sprinted towards the man among the rubbish, kicking him in the head. The young man pulled a butcher's knife. A man in a black leather jacket who had discouraged the attack grabbed the wrist with the butcher's knife. The attackers fled.


He turned his head towards the questions fired at him, his face pleading. He said nothing. His shirt was drenched, a 2cm gash in his chest.

Metres further he stumbled and lay down in the gutter. He struggled to sit up and fell down.

"Help me get him into the car. Help me, please," said photographer James Oatway, looking around at the men gathered around him. One stepped forward, reluctantly.


So exactly at which point would you intervene, where are the two minutes you speak of, apart from during the attack?
 
The point I would have intervened was the point at which Oatway crouched down and took a couple of shots of him laying in the dirt dying whilst the attackers had left the scene.

But that's just me Oatway preferred to capture some shots of him bleeding to death. Each to their own. I notice that part was missing from the above account.
 
CanonDjango said:
The point I would have intervened was the point at which Oatway crouched down and took a couple of shots of him laying in the dirt dying whilst the attackers had left the scene.

But that's just me Oatway preferred to capture some shots of him bleeding to death. Each to their own. I notice that part was missing from the above account.
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..and what exactly would you have done here? At that point he's as good as dead. Now we're down to a couple of shots, we're certainly not in the 'minutes' wasted anymore either. A couple of shots is definitely 'seconds'.
 
purpleclouds said:
..and what exactly would you have done here? At that point he's as good as dead. Now we're down to a couple of shots, we're certainly not in the 'minutes' wasted anymore either. A couple of shots is definitely 'seconds'.
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1. you've only seen three shots - does that mean he only took three shots?

2. unless you are a doctor you can't possibly make the call that he is as good as dead - seconds minutes - every one "Might" be valuable. You only know afterwards
 
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CanonDjango said:
The point I would have intervened was the point at which Oatway crouched down and took a couple of shots of him laying in the dirt dying whilst the attackers had left the scene.

But that's just me Oatway preferred to capture some shots of him bleeding to death. Each to their own. I notice that part was missing from the above account.
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The part written by someone who was there - no someone sat thousands of miles away you mean?

Since you feel so strongly, why not write a complaint to the press complaints
http://www.pcc.org.uk/

or
The Sunday Times has established a fund to assist the family of Emmanuel Sithole. Anyone wishing to contribute can pay their donation into the following bank account:

Account name : Sunday Times Readers
Bank : Standard Bank
Branch : Rosebank
Account no : 00 160 4783
Branch code : 51001
Reference : Emmanuel

Please note the reference: Emmanuel.


Note: I got those details from James Facebook page...
I suggest you read some of the comments
https://www.facebook.com/jamesoatway#
 
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