NSFW Photojournalist slammed for not intervening



  • I think the words you're looking for are: Yes, I was wrong. There is indeed nothing generic about the thread title nor the opening post.

    There, that wasn't too hard, was it?

Nope, the title doesn't specify the journalist, so it's fair to be a generic conversation. To add, when was there ever a thread on TP that didn't have some thread drift?

He's a self important prat trying to act like forum police, he needs to shut up or contribute, not try and shut up other contributors.
 
Nope, the title doesn't specify the journalist, so it's fair to be a generic conversation. To add, when was there ever a thread on TP that didn't have some thread drift?

Plus as I said the paralell between Oatway's situation and Uts (or any other photo journalist) ought to be obvious (per my previous post) - I don't beleive for a moment Joe was too stupid to realise that.

He's a self important prat trying to act like forum police, he needs to shut up or contribute, not try and shut up other contributors.

The ignore function is a wonderful thing
 
I suppose Kevin Carter's 1993 photograph of the starving child and vulture near a feeding station in the Sudan also falls into the 'intervene or not' category. There's been controversy about this too, and Joao Silva - who was also there - put another perspective on it.

FWIW, Carter and Silva were both members of the Bang Bang Club, and Carter committed suicide about three months later.
 
Imo its always going to be a difficult line for photo journalists - in order to get the shots they need to create powerful stories they have to put themselves in difficult situations where intervening might be a human impulse but one they have to supress in order to get the shots that tell the wider world what is going on.

Its not a job i could do, but that doesnt mean I can't respect those who do
 
I suppose Kevin Carter's 1993 photograph of the starving child and vulture near a feeding station in the Sudan also falls into the 'intervene or not' category. There's been controversy about this too, and Joao Silva - who was also there - put another perspective on it.

FWIW, Carter and Silva were both members of the Bang Bang Club, and Carter committed suicide about three months later.

I think Carter's suicide note even made reference of the psychological turmoil taking the photograph had put him in IIRC.
 
I suppose Kevin Carter's 1993 photograph of the starving child and vulture near a feeding station in the Sudan also falls into the 'intervene or not' category. There's been controversy about this too, and Joao Silva - who was also there - put another perspective on it.

FWIW, Carter and Silva were both members of the Bang Bang Club, and Carter committed suicide about three months later.

Reading up on the'bang bang club ' its easy to see the price these guys pay for their dedication to photo journalism - Carter committed suicide , Oosterbroek was shot dead by 'peacekeepers' in SA ( Marinovich was also serious injured in that incident), and Jao Silva stepped on a mine in afganistan and lost his legs
 
I think Carter's suicide note even made reference of the psychological turmoil taking the photograph had put him in IIRC.

yep according to wikipedia it said

I'm really, really sorry. The pain of life overrides the joy to the point that joy does not exist... depressed ... without phone ... money for rent ... money for child support ... money for debts ... money!!! ... I am haunted by the vivid memories of killings and corpses and anger and pain ... of starving or wounded children, of trigger-happy madmen, often police, of killer executioners ... I have gone to join ken if I am that lucky
 
Yes we are talking about Oatway - but it ought to be obvious that I was using a comparison to make the point , Nick Uts job was to take photos not comfort distressed children (and whether or not that particular image shortened the war - photojournalism of the various attrocities of the war in general helped put pressure on the american govt to get their act together)

Ah I see I will try and remeber that should I ever come across distressed children who need my help, sorry, not my job.

Does being a photographer mean they have not to show any humanity, does that role excuses them from their responsibilites as a human being? I am curios now not winding anyone up or trolling just want to know the general feeling on this.
 
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sigh - I forgot you'd be too litteral minded to understand a parallel (or at least that you'd pretend to be for the sake of argument)

Yes we are talking about Oatway - but it ought to be obvious that I was using a comparison to make the point , Nick Uts job was to take photos not comfort distressed children (and whether or not that particular image shortened the war - photojournalism of the various attrocities of the war in general helped put pressure on the american govt to get their act together)

Likewise with McCullins pictures of famine in africa - his job is to let the world know what is happening, not to help individual starving children

Equally Oatway's job is to take photos , not to render first aid and comfort to victims of violence - and by taking the shots he did he has raised awareness of what is happening down there - just the fact that we are having this discussion demonstrates that

(oh and Joe you arent a mod so don't tell me what i can or can't post )

There are no parallels which is why your point is mute. Different circumstances entirely.

But ... Let's get this thread back on track. I don't intend to further indulge in this conversation of whether it is or isn't relevant, it's derailing the thread and it's not helping. I'm sure you will quote this post and further discuss it but I shall not comment further on this particular point.
 
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The main thing I see from Carter's suicide note there is money.
 
I suppose I should have been clearer in my OP. Whilst I referring to Oatway's actions, my question was meant to be broader in t
Ah I see I will try and remeber that should I ever come across distressed children who need my help, sorry, not my job.

Does being a photographer mean they have not to show any humanity, does that role excuses them from their responsibilites as a human being? I am curios now not winding anyone up or trolling just want to know the general feeling on this.

Like being a tourist in another country excuses you from helping indigenous people/children in a distressed state needing food/shelter/medical help?
 
The main thing I see from Carter's suicide note there is money.

I thought this was the essence of his problems, the money problems probably followed on from his state of mind.

I am haunted by the vivid memories of killings and corpses and anger and pain ... of starving or wounded children, of trigger-happy madmen, often police, of killer executioners
 
What are their responsibilities as a human being and who defines it?
Do you really need to ask that Steve, honestly? If you do then I pity you.
 
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Like being a tourist in another country excuses you from helping indigenous people/children in a distressed state needing food/shelter/medical help?

You've lost me their mate, I've never seen 'indigenous' children in a distressed state needing food, shelter, medical aid perhaps I've led a sheltered life or maybe I simpy wouldnt holiday at such places and flaunt my weath and well being in their faces. But, if I did feel that their life was in imminent danger because of it I would hope that I would do something. Would you?
 
I think what it is you are trying to portray and thrust on us is what you think is someone elses duties. Spell it out, what do you think the photographer is done. Your view is your view, it is not law or gospel.
If you really need lessons in humanity then your past helping. What does it mean to you Steve, me, me, me, me, me
 
One thing I would never accuse Pete of is being mute...

@big soft moose ;).

I think he meant moot ;)

I'm not sure how Joe can say there are no parrallels where in one case you have a photojournalist (Ut) in a highly dangerous environment and someone in front of him needing aid or comfort , and on the other you have a photojournalist (oatway) in a highly dangerous environment with someone in front of him needing aid or comfort ... yeah completely different, what was I thinking :rolleyes:



Does being a photographer mean they have not to show any humanity, does that role excuses them from their responsibilites as a human being? I am curios now not winding anyone up or trolling just want to know the general feeling on this.

The photo journalists job is to depict whats happening and let the world know about it , ie to report the news - this doesnt mean they can't show any humanity (afterall Oatway took Sithole to hospital he didnt just take his shots then wander off laughing) but it does mean that they have to turn it off enough to do their job if its going to get in the way.

with the child and vulture picture that Carter took - he could have just scared the vulture away and taken the child into the aid station - but that wouldnt have produced a powerful image that helped publicise the plight of children in the sudan (and according to Jao Silva's account the child was never in any danger from the vulture anyway)
 
Nope, the title doesn't specify the journalist, so it's fair to be a generic conversation. To add, when was there ever a thread on TP that didn't have some thread drift?

He's a self important prat trying to act like forum police, he needs to shut up or contribute, not try and shut up other contributors.

No need Dave, we can have disagreeing views without resorting to insults

If you really need lessons in humanity then your past helping. What does it mean to you Steve, me, me, me, me, me

Ditto.


Lets keep it civil please, it has the possibilities of being yet another interesting discussion with two opossing views.
 
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Lets keep it civil please, it has the possibilities of being yet another interesting discussion with two opossing views.
Point taken, I think I have laboured my point enough anyway
 
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If you really need lessons in humanity then your past helping. What does it mean to you Steve, me, me, me, me, me

More rhetoric and personal comments. Can you please answer the question. Here is is below. Please be specific and one better would be to keep the answers in the context of the thread. Give it a go.

What are their responsibilities as a human being and who defines it?
 
Money, yes, but drugs were involved too.

Werent both his money problems and his drug addiction the consequence of the trauma of what he's seen - in essence he was suffering from PTSD and depression - his post about the pain overcoming the joy is fairly classic depression stuff

theres more info on carters life and death here for those that are interested http://www.thisisyesterday.com/ints/KCarter.html

whilst i'm not big on recreation drug taking, i have to say that unless any of us have been through similar to what he went through we arent well placed to judge him from the safety of our armchairs
 
More rhetoric and personal comments. Can you please answer the question. Here is is below. Please be specific and one better would be to keep the answers in the context of the thread. Give it a go.
I would bother but I think it would just go straight over your head mate ;) (sorry @Byker28i he pushed me :))

Of course you could read my posts in this thread and others and it might give you an inkling of what I feel our responsibilities as human beings are. I certainly know from your posts what you think they are. And no thats neither rhetoric or a personal insult, just MY opinion of your posting history, after all not personally knowing you thats all I have to go on
 
You've lost me their mate, I've never seen 'indigenous' children in a distressed state needing food, shelter, medical aid perhaps I've led a sheltered life or maybe I simpy wouldnt holiday at such places and flaunt my weath and well being in their faces. But, if I did feel that their life was in imminent danger because of it I would hope that I would do something. Would you?

I spent a good portion of my working life helping people in extremely distressed and dangerous states, so yes I would and have on many many occassions.

Ever been to South Africa? Irrespective of where you go you would see that - and it's not a matter of flaunting wealth, the situation is sadly unavoidable, so I guess you must have lived a sheltered life - as you so eloquently put it...
 
I would bother but I think it would just go straight over your head mate ;) (sorry @Byker28i he pushed me :))

So that's a no then.

Of course you could read my posts in this thread and others and it might give you an inkling of what I feel our responsibilities as human beings are. I certainly know from your posts what you think they are. And no thats neither rhetoric or a personal insult, just MY opinion of your posting history, after all not personally knowing you thats all I have to go on

I have read them, and cannot see your logical at all. Sorry, mate. Here is my logic.

The guy took the pictures (it doesn't take more than a second to loose of an image like that) then took him to hosptial. Short of risking getting himself stabbed, there wasn't a lot more he could do. He could have just called emergency services and waited to they showed up, but went above and beyond and took the man himself to care.

I really don't get what the fuss is about.
 
The guy took the pictures (it doesn't take more than a second to loose of an image like that) then took him to hosptial. Short of risking getting himself stabbed, there wasn't a lot more he could do. He could have just called emergency services and waited to they showed up, but went above and beyond and took the man himself to care.

I really don't get what the fuss is about.

he''d have had a f*****g long wait - I doubt they go in there without a police escort

for once i agree with you (at least on this post)
 
I think this subject does need to be expand, not just restricted to James Oatway. After all what we really are discussing is the ethics of photojournalists.


So the two .codes of ethics are Associated Press and National Press Photographers Association
http://www.ap.org/company/News-Values
https://nppa.org/code_of_ethics


When discussing this, one of the the standards often refered to is: While photographing subjects do not intentionally contribute to, alter, or seek to alter or influence events.(NPPA)
although there is also the last standard whichg says: When confronted with situations in which the proper action is not clear, seek the counsel of those who exhibit the highest standards of the profession. Visual journalists should continuously study their craft and the ethics that guide it. which seems to recognise the conflict between professional and moral decisions.

This supposed morale outrage could be addressed at nearly all photojournalists, yet the difference is their actions. Nick Ut took the burnt child to a hospital, as did James Oatway.
How about Just remember thef Civil War carnage by Mathew Brady, US Soldiers being dragged and beaten in Somalia by Paul Watson; the Katrina victims by Vincent Laforet?

AD Coleman said of this: Charles Moore risked life and limb to document the Civil Rights movement and bring the viciousness of southern racism to the world’s attention; neither he nor his subjects nor those who published or viewed his work back then thought he needed to do anything more beyond that.
Paul Watson could not have “helped” the dead U.S. soldier whose corpse he photographed being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu by an angry mob.
Vincent Laforet was not in a position to “help” the people he photographed (often from the air) in the aftermath of Katrina more effectively than he did by bringing their plight before the world’s eyes.


Marcus Bleasdale wrote, “I’ve always been taught that journalists must comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. With our words and pictures, we
can trigger a reaction from the general public and from the leaders they elect”

How about the New York photojournalist who took images of the man on the tracks?
http://gawker.com/5965447/photo-of-...ront-page-of-the-new-york-post-sparks-outrage
In this case he probably does have a case to answer., in a Forbes article (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffber...york-posts-subway-death-photo-was-it-ethical/)

John Long of the National Press Photographers Association.ethics committee said: “I cannot judge the man,” he says. “I don’t know how far away he was. I don’t know if he could’ve done anything.”

On the question of what his duty was in the situation, he’s unequivocal. “If you have placed yourself in a situation where you can help, you are morally obligated,” he says. “The proper thing to do would’ve been to put down the camera and try to get the guy out. I can understand why people are upset.” “Your job as a human being, so to speak, outweighs your job as a photojournalist,” he adds.

I think that about sums up the difficult decisions. In Oatways case, I think he made the right decisions, when he realised how injured the man was (when he collapsed after walking away) he stepped in and took him to medical facilities.
 
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So that's a no then.



I have read them, and cannot see your logical at all. Sorry, mate. Here is my logic.

The guy took the pictures (it doesn't take more than a second to loose of an image like that) then took him to hosptial. Short of risking getting himself stabbed, there wasn't a lot more he could do. He could have just called emergency services and waited to they showed up, but went above and beyond and took the man himself to care.

I really don't get what the fuss is about.
Youve clearly not read my post then.
 
Werent both his money problems and his drug addiction the consequence of the trauma of what he's seen - in essence he was suffering from PTSD and depression - his post about the pain overcoming the joy is fairly classic depression stuff

whilst i'm not big on recreation drug taking, i have to say that unless any of us have been through similar to what he went through we arent well placed to judge him from the safety of our armchairs

Yeah, all that, and the death of his friend Ken Oosterbroek too. I'd also forgotten that he photographed the shooting of the three AWB members in Bophuthatswana after the 'intervention'.

Damned if I'm going to judge him for his drug habit either.
 
Ever been to South Africa? Irrespective of where you go you would see that - and it's not a matter of flaunting wealth, the situation is sadly unavoidable, so I guess you must have lived a sheltered life - as you so eloquently put it...
Much the same as anywhere in India, Sri Lanka, Far East.

We're currently heavily involved within orphanage in Nairobi, there's a lot of places the you don't go as a white person as it's assumed you'd have something of worth, whether you have or not. Even I. The orphanages and schools, it's not unusual to find children who only have one meal of posho, no shoes etc.
 
I spent a good portion of my working life helping people in extremely distressed and dangerous states, so yes I would and have on many many occassions.
Then Kudos to you, Im not being sarcastic or filppant, I admire those that do what they can, we all seem stuck in our own little worlds immune from the really serious problems that many in the world face.

My comment regarding flaunting was in fact in your reponse to your comment about being a tourist.
 
You are in no position to hold forth about empathy or compassion then.

And when it comes to matters of substance abuse, I dont. So what's your point?
 
You are in no position to hold forth about empathy or compassion then.

don't waste your time Andy - if someone doesnt get why someone in Carters position might have turned to "the white pipe" and alcohol to blot out the trauma he was confronted with on a near daily basis, then theres no persuading them otherwise.
 
he''d have had a f*****g long wait - I doubt they go in there without a police escort

for once i agree with you (at least on this post)
In most situations they won't - that's if there was an ambulance available. I worked in Port Elizabeth, quite a large city and regularly there was only one ambulance available for an area probably the size of half of Hampshire.
 
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