Picking an editor is hard

firewireguy

firewireguy

Messages
170
Edit My Images
Yes
I've been a long time Nikon Capture NX2 user, although haven't used it in recent years as I dropped out of the photography hobby for a bit. I bought the Nix Color Efex plugins for it, it did B&W conversion really nicely and I love the U-point controls. It was slow but I was happy with it.

Coming back to photography now and my new Z6 no longer works with NX2 and it really shows its age. So I've been using NX Studio and I like it with one big caveat - Black and White conversion is really lacking. As far as I can tell the only option is to use a B&W picture control which gives very limited tweaking. And altering the colours doesn't work to affect the image as the image is already B&W by the time the processing gets there.

I quite like the B&W treatment I get by default, but the customisability isn't there so its over to using Upoints.

I've got a trial of DxO PhotoLab7 and that has a lot of options with its B&W conversion, which is nice, but it's a lot of work to get them as good as the NX Studio images. But Photolab does do colour images a lot better than NXS. Photolab also has Upoints including more options with them, which is nice. It's also faster than NXS. But where NXS stores all edits in the NEF files, PL uses side car files, which isn't as neat.

I've also Rawtherapee, which makes nice images with some work but holy moly there's a bazillion options and I don't know what most of it means. Just calm down Rawtherapee!

I also have the trial of Nix Silver Efex, but that doesn't work with NEF files. I need to spend more time with it and Colour Efex to see if I can get a good workflow, but I'm not convinced so far.

The whole thing is a minefield. I just want a one stop shop for everything. NXS is so close for that as are the others. Having multiple editors doesn't appeal. I'm erring towards DxO Photolab, but seems expensive for the full version - I am not buying any subscription service.

How did you make your choice?

/rant
 
2 key issues really - image development and digital library management. Tagging and cataloguing pictures was important to me, so there were only a few packages that do it and of those I fin lightroom to do it best for me. If you don't need that then find the one with a set of tools that work for your needs at a reasonable price point.
 
firewireguy said:
I've been a long time Nikon Capture NX2 user, although haven't used it in recent years as I dropped out of the photography hobby for a bit. I bought the Nix Color Efex plugins for it, it did B&W conversion really nicely and I love the U-point controls. It was slow but I was happy with it.

Coming back to photography now and my new Z6 no longer works with NX2 and it really shows its age. So I've been using NX Studio and I like it with one big caveat - Black and White conversion is really lacking. As far as I can tell the only option is to use a B&W picture control which gives very limited tweaking. And altering the colours doesn't work to affect the image as the image is already B&W by the time the processing gets there.

I quite like the B&W treatment I get by default, but the customisability isn't there so its over to using Upoints.

I've got a trial of DxO PhotoLab7 and that has a lot of options with its B&W conversion, which is nice, but it's a lot of work to get them as good as the NX Studio images. But Photolab does do colour images a lot better than NXS. Photolab also has Upoints including more options with them, which is nice. It's also faster than NXS. But where NXS stores all edits in the NEF files, PL uses side car files, which isn't as neat.

I've also Rawtherapee, which makes nice images with some work but holy moly there's a bazillion options and I don't know what most of it means. Just calm down Rawtherapee!

I also have the trial of Nix Silver Efex, but that doesn't work with NEF files. I need to spend more time with it and Colour Efex to see if I can get a good workflow, but I'm not convinced so far.

The whole thing is a minefield. I just want a one stop shop for everything. NXS is so close for that as are the others. Having multiple editors doesn't appeal. I'm erring towards DxO Photolab, but seems expensive for the full version - I am not buying any subscription service.

How did you make your choice?

/rant
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With the proviso that I don't use either the Nikon programs, nor currently use the Nik plugins, Nik plugins have never read NEF files.

The Nik plugins with Capture NX2 relied on NX2 converting the NEF file into. TIF files before opening the Nik Plugin.

If you are happy with NXStudio, this link appears you to show how you can get the current Nik Plugins to work with NXStudio in the same way as they used to work out the box with NX2.

www.photoartfromscience.com

Use Nik Plug-ins Inside Nikon NX Studio

How to configure Nikon's free NX Studio to use the Nik plug-ins. Vastly increase the power of NX Studio.
www.photoartfromscience.com www.photoartfromscience.com
 
You can use the programs in the Nik suite as plug ins for NX Studio

if you select "file/open with" from within NXS the drop down options will include programs that NXS recognises. If you choose SilverFX, The NEF will be converted to a tiff and open for editing.

you may have to add Nik programs to the list of options manually, but it’s pretty simple and you only have to do it once

looks like myotis beat me to it - Doh!
 
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I still find Silver Effx the best B+W conversion, once you get it dialed in right for your pics it takes some beating. I dont use it on raw though.
 
You could use NX Studio for most things and if you want B&W use "Other Apps" to open the file with Capture NX2 as a TIFF?
 
OK, I've spent a bit more time with them all and the things I've noticed are:
PL is faster
PL has WAAAAYYY better noise reduction and sharpening tools. It's just no contest compared to NXS.
PL Elite has a really nice set of B&W conversion tools with the colour adjustments.
The perspective and lens correction tools in PL are really nice and quick to use. Didn't think I'd really use them, but have tried them on a few building shots and it's excellent.

So all in all, I'm going to get Photolab Elite. I was erring that way, but having just looked at some high ISO images and the difference between them in PL and NXS I was sold. I thought NXS was pretty good, but it turns out that DxO just walks the floor and I suspect I was just impressed with my Z6 compared to my old D7100. The auto sharpening tools based on the lens used is really fantastic. It detects the lens, if it doesn't have the profile for it, it gets downloaded and now everytime I open an image that used that lens, the sharpening profile for it is applied automatically. And it really makes a huge difference and much better than faffing with unsharp masks all the time.
 
GreenNinja67 said:
Just go with the Adobe Photographer's package.

£10 a month is nothing really for what you get.
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Loads of people say that, without understanding the needs of the person.
I had been happy with CaptureOne Express. I don't take many photos so £10 a month is a lot.
Previous to capture one I had lightroom perpetual.
Looks like DXO Photolab is my best option really, though I'm going to see what Sony ImageEdge or what ever it's called can do.

I'm not paying £120 a year, I want something to buy that I will keep and use until I NEED to update IE a new camera it doesn't support.
 
robj20 said:
I'm not paying £120 a year, I want something to buy that I will keep and use until I NEED to update IE a new camera it doesn't support.
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Whenever I see a subscription based service:
itsatrap.jpg
 
I’ve used Adobe Photographers package for a few years and find it much better than the old model of having to pay for new versions to keep up with the advances. Great value for money for me, a fraction of what I’ve paid for my camera gear, laptops and other peripherals.

I’m not sure I understand this aversion to a photography subscription based service, it’s how we pay for many things in life now - either subscription or rolling direct debit etc. I’m not a believer that Adobe are trying to con anyone or that there is some kind of Illuminati conspiracy at play, just an alternative method of paying for a product.

Still, horses for courses and payment choice is always a good thing to keep developers on their toes.
 
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I have mixed feelings. Bought a black Friday subscription and have 2 years for £130 odd. But compared to version 6, I'd say lightroom actually works less well in my hands, with images looking more artificial and over-processed. I get better results with On1 photoraw 2023, and regret the 'upgrade'.
 
firewireguy said:
PL uses side car files, which isn't as neat.
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Sidecars are optional - you can turn them off in prefs & just rely on the catalogue. The catalogue is present anyway, but if relying on it it's advisable to back it up regularly, just as in other apps such as LR or C1.
 
While I agree that if you’re seriously into photography £10 a month for Adobe isn’t too bad it depends on the individual
When I retired I needed to cut down on what I spent so stopped the Adobe subscription and bought Affinity photo and actually found that it was better for some things that I did such as image stacking
also more recently I bought DXO photolab and found that it did a better job on raw conversion than lightroom when I went back and redid images that I had worked on in Lightroom, this may have changed though since
 
robj20 said:
I had been happy with CaptureOne Express. I don't take many photos so £10 a month is a lot.
Previous to capture one I had lightroom perpetual.
Looks like DXO Photolab is my best option really, though I'm going to see what Sony ImageEdge or what ever it's called can do.

I'm not paying £120 a year, I want something to buy that I will keep and use until I NEED to update IE a new camera it doesn't support.
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Have you tried one of the FREE open-source alternatives (eg Darktable)? And there's always Affinity Photo ...

Photolab isn't exactly cheap. And if you didn't upgrade it for more than a couple of years, even as an existing user your upgrade would no longer be at an offer price.

Another thing with changing apps is that one has to learn yet another damned interface and ways of doing things!
 
LCPete said:
also more recently I bought DXO photolab and found that it did a better job on raw conversion than lightroom when I went back and redid images that I had worked on in Lightroom, this may have changed though since
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I do find that it can vary at different times how one gels with a given app, never mind different ones - and how one perceives particular image possibilities too. Also, over time one becomes more experienced across the board ...
 
droj said:
Have you tried one of the FREE open-source alternatives (eg Darktable)? And there's always Affinity Photo ...

Photolab isn't exactly cheap. And if you didn't upgrade it for more than a couple of years, even as an existing user your upgrade would no longer be at an offer price.

Another thing with changing apps is that one has to learn yet another damned interface and ways of doing things!
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I tried Darktable, really didn't like it.
Photolab 7 is £129 for Essential which looks to have everything I need. That's the same price as 1 year of Lightroom so after 2 years I'm saving money.
 
droj said:
I do find that it can vary at different times how one gels with a given app, never mind different ones - and how one perceives particular image possibilities too. Also, over time one becomes more experienced across the board ...
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Very good point actually
I’m going through and reeditng some of my old raws at the moment
 
re - subscription services - they are businesses - how else do you expect them to fund R & D. Do you think these programs would be as good as they are today had they not switched their business models?
 
Wellsyboy said:
re - subscription services - they are businesses - how else do you expect them to fund R & D. Do you think these programs would be as good as they are today had they not switched their business models?
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I would expect them to be better, because instead of sitting back and enjoying vast profits from small tweaks, they would have to compete in an aggressive market.
 
Wellsyboy said:
re - subscription services - they are businesses - how else do you expect them to fund R & D. Do you think these programs would be as good as they are today had they not switched their business models?
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I'm going to vote with my wallet and not but into subscription software that I don't want it need updating every day with frankly minor updates.

If it got so bad that it was the only option I'd either rely on the camera manufacturer raw converter or shoot jpeg.
 
I’m going to have to upgrade my software as I really need to update the Mac. I’ve stuck with the old OS because PS CS6 does all I need although I do like to do the initial RAW stuff in Photolab which will also stop working. I’ve toyed with the idea of updating the DXO and using Elements as the last stage but I’m not sure I’ll be happy with it.
 
I think I did a review of them all a couple of years ago in a desperate attempt to shed Lightroom, but none of them were up to the task of asset management which is the most important thing for me. I'm always looking back at my catalogue, pulling certain images for projects, or one off things and being able to very quickly pull images together - even automatically with smart collections is a feature I can't find anywhere else. Most of them seem to have UIs from the 90s...

Unless something has changed?
 
Merluza said:
I’ve toyed with the idea of updating the DXO and using Elements as the last stage but I’m not sure I’ll be happy with it.
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If you've been happy with PS (my version is slightly older than yours), I think that any flavour of Elements could be enough to drive you nuts, unless you want to live in Toytown? Only one way to find out! But Affinity Photo's very capable as a PS alternative, and will also a decent basic RAW conversion unless you need more sophisticated & batch functions. Unfortunately its interface (apart from the RAW converter) can be somewhat bamboozling to a seasoned PS operator, but I expect that one could settle in?

Sounds like you're accustomed to Photolab, & as Rob pointed out above there's the option of its 'Essential' version ...
 
firewireguy said:
OK, I've spent a bit more time with them all and the things I've noticed are:
PL is faster
PL has WAAAAYYY better noise reduction and sharpening tools. It's just no contest compared to NXS.
PL Elite has a really nice set of B&W conversion tools with the colour adjustments.
The perspective and lens correction tools in PL are really nice and quick to use. Didn't think I'd really use them, but have tried them on a few building shots and it's excellent.

So all in all, I'm going to get Photolab Elite. I was erring that way, but having just looked at some high ISO images and the difference between them in PL and NXS I was sold. I thought NXS was pretty good, but it turns out that DxO just walks the floor and I suspect I was just impressed with my Z6 compared to my old D7100. The auto sharpening tools based on the lens used is really fantastic. It detects the lens, if it doesn't have the profile for it, it gets downloaded and now everytime I open an image that used that lens, the sharpening profile for it is applied automatically. And it really makes a huge difference and much better than faffing with unsharp masks all the time.
Click to expand...
I recently went for the Elite package as well as I was really impressed with the noise handling and thought even if I use a different editing package, the noise processing would still be useful.

How have you been learning Photolab, just having a look around and trying it out or have you been following any guides or tutorials?
 
I use Affinty Photo. It has everything I need for photo editing and If I want an extra tweek, then I use the NIK software, with which it is fully compatible.
A one off payment circa £60, and regular updates, (free), for when new cameras come onto the market. None of the old photoshop malarky that we had before.
 
camairish said:
I’m not sure I understand this aversion to a photography subscription based service, it’s how we pay for many things in life now - either subscription or rolling direct debit etc. I’m not a believer that Adobe are trying to con anyone or that there is some kind of Illuminati conspiracy at play, just an alternative method of paying for a product.
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To me a subscription service is holding you to ransom. If you stop paying you'll stop being able to use it. You want to use Lightroom in 10 years time you need to still be paying them or you'll lose access. When you buy something outright you can use it for as long as you want. I'm still not keen that PL requires an internet connection to validate a license, but it's better. I bought Capture NX2 maybe 15 years ago and it still works fine for the cameras it supports. It's not the latest and greatest today, but it's exactly as good as it ever was and I could keep on using it for another 20 years without it costing me anything more. I'm not tied to any one company and I have freedom to move around at ease.

So I have an aversion to subscription services - I host all my own services at home where I can up to and including a mail server, so I know I'm not normal.
droj said:
Sidecars are optional - you can turn them off in prefs & just rely on the catalogue. The catalogue is present anyway, but if relying on it it's advisable to back it up regularly, just as in other apps such as LR or C1.
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This is where my understanding falls apart. I get side car files, they make sense. OK, NX Studio and Capture NX2 stored all the edits in the NEF files themselves, it was self contained, portable and really easy. It's just a file I do what I want with in any application. Applications having their own built in databases and catalogs is confusing, especially as when you buy PL Elise you can install it on 3 different machines. Each machine will have their own catalog database and presumably will have no way to sync as there isn't a catalog server. I'm wondering if I can just place the catalog database files on my NAS and have all instances use the same catalog? I don't know. In order of preference I'd go:
1) include edits in the files
2) side car files that can be moved around
3) sand paper loo roll
4) independent catalogs

The way I work typically is to copy the images on a folder on my PC, edit them, sort them etc using the fast disk of the PC. Then when I'm done just move the whole folder over to my NAS. The NAS is redundant, backed up and accessible throughout my network where as my PC is in one place, no redundant disks, no backup, not accessible elsewhere but faster. So I want to keep doing the same, which is where sidecar files make sense to me.
robj20 said:
I tried Darktable, really didn't like it.
Photolab 7 is £129 for Essential which looks to have everything I need. That's the same price as 1 year of Lightroom so after 2 years I'm saving money.
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After 1 year and 1 day you'll be saving money!
Wellsyboy said:
re - subscription services - they are businesses - how else do you expect them to fund R & D.
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Through sales.
JohnMcL7 said:
I recently went for the Elite package as well as I was really impressed with the noise handling and thought even if I use a different editing package, the noise processing would still be useful.

How have you been learning Photolab, just having a look around and trying it out or have you been following any guides or tutorials?
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I've watched a few of the tutorial videos on YT that have been pretty useful. I still don't know exactly what I'm doing, but I can at least make some quite nice edits quickly now. There's bound to be loads I can learn still though.
 
firewireguy said:
I've watched a few of the tutorial videos on YT that have been pretty useful. I still don't know exactly what I'm doing, but I can at least make some quite nice edits quickly now. There's bound to be loads I can learn still though.
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That sounds a similar stage to where I am :D

I'm 100% with you on subscription services and it's one of the reasons I went with PL7 as I've been hanging onto the last standalone version of Lightroom until I've reached the current point where it doesn't support my newer cameras. Because it's not a subscription I can carry on using Lightroom as much or as little as I need so I can still use it for older cameras I'm content with and I like its panorama stitching whereas if it was subscription I'd have to cancel in favour of another editing software or keep paying for something I'm not really using.
 
JohnMcL7 said:
I've been hanging onto the last standalone version of Lightroom until I've reached the current point where it doesn't support my newer cameras.
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Honestly, don't make that jump. LR6 works better than the present LrC in key areas like colours, control of tones and dust/healing masking. It's really nice to be able to open files from my A7III directly, but converting to DNG wasn't that big a faff. If I could cash in what remains of my 2 years of subscription right now and go back to LR6 then I definitely would.
 
I was very reluctant to swap LR6 for the subscription package. But I must say I'm glad I did. I love the dehaze function, and a few of the other things they have introduced. Yes, I'm not held to ransom - but I'm 58, so I reckon I might have 20 more years to pay for. That will likely be £4k at most, which in the scheme of things isn't huge. And so long as my two sisters live the same length of time, I can just ask them to pay for my subscription as I did last year!

The thing that worries me though is that all the original files on my computer are unprocessed and rubbish. The processed versions only 'work' in Lightroom - so what happens if I did ever want to change or stop? Would I have to export 40,000 photos as jpegs?
 
Bodian said:
I was very reluctant to swap LR6 for the subscription package. But I must say I'm glad I did. I love the dehaze function, and a few of the other things they have introduced. Yes, I'm not held to ransom - but I'm 58, so I reckon I might have 20 more years to pay for. That will likely be £4k at most, which in the scheme of things isn't huge. And so long as my two sisters live the same length of time, I can just ask them to pay for my subscription as I did last year!

The thing that worries me though is that all the original files on my computer are unprocessed and rubbish. The processed versions only 'work' in Lightroom - so what happens if I did ever want to change or stop? Would I have to export 40,000 photos as jpegs?
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As I understand it when your subscription expires you lose access to the Develop and Map modules but you should still be able to export your existing edits:

You can continue to access all your photos on your local hard drive through Lightroom for the desktop. You can continue to import and organize photos and output your edited photos through Export, Publish, Print, Web, or Slideshow. Access to the Develop & Map modules and Lightroom for mobile is not available after your membership ends.
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I liked when I could CHOOSE to pay for the latest version of a software package, and when I could decide to SKIP the latest version because it contain no particular BENEFIT for me. The company got my money when I derived benefit from their efforts, not merely paying them monthly for nothing I needed.
When I generated income from photography, I had no hesitation to pay for software, when it provided me benefits of features and helped me to make money. But in retirement, when photography makes NO INCOME at all for me, and I have need for [no new features or support of no new camera models], I do not see why I should pay unnecessarily each month for usings 'same old stuff' for 10 years. IF I were to buy a new camera, and the new software supported it, it would make sense to pay for the latest software, again.

If you put $10 in the bank each month, and your savings earned interest from the bank, if the interest were merely 4% and compounded merely monthly (not even the usual daily compooiunding), you would have $19,000 at the end of 50 year hobby (ages 15 to 65), had you put that money into the bank rather than paying Adobe. Hardly 'insignificant'. Wise money management, when your kitty is perpetually shrinking in retirement..
 
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Does anyone know if Affinity Photo have revised their crappy highlight recover yet?
 
wiltw said:
I liked when I could CHOOSE to pay for the latest version of a software package, and when I could decide to SKIP the latest version because it contain no particular BENEFIT for me. The company got my money when I derived benefit from their efforts, not merely paying them monthly for nothing I needed.
When I generated income from photography, I had no hesitation to pay for software, when it provided me benefits of features and helped me to make money. But in retirement, when photography makes NO INCOME at all for me, and I have need for [no new features or support of no new camera models], I do not see why I should pay unnecessarily each month for usings 'same old stuff' for 10 years. IF I were to buy a new camera, and the new software supported it, it would make sense to pay for the latest software, again.

If you put $10 in the bank each month, and your savings earned interest from the bank, if the interest were merely 4% and compounded merely monthly (not even the usual daily compooiunding), you would have $19,000 at the end of 50 year hobby (ages 15 to 65), had you put that money into the bank rather than paying Adobe. Hardly 'insignificant'. Wise money management, when your kitty is perpetually shrinking in retirement..
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(My bold) Install Adobe DNG converter, convert all your photos to DNG and work on them with impunity using your older software.
 
droj said:
Another thing with changing apps is that one has to learn yet another damned interface and ways of doing things!
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This is absolutely critical. I used LR from v2 to v6.14 and got on well with it. I so disliked the subscription model that I decided to try Photolab and it was such a struggle to get used to doing everything differently. While the NR/sharpening was better than LR in other ways it just felt difficult. I then decided to swallow my pride and signed up for the Adobe subs....and fortunately LR had improved no end in the meantime, with several excellent new features. So I didn't regret it at all.

Since then LR now has AI Noise Reduction as well but it is very slow on my PC, so I still use DXO for that.
 
wiltw said:
If you put $10 in the bank each month, and your savings earned interest from the bank, if the interest were merely 4% and compounded merely monthly (not even the usual daily compooiunding), you would have $19,000 at the end of 50 year hobby (ages 15 to 65), had you put that money into the bank rather than paying Adobe. Hardly 'insignificant'. Wise money management, when your kitty is perpetually shrinking in retirement..
Click to expand...

In 50 years time I will be dead, so I would rather spend my money now, on something that I get pleasure out of using.
 
dcash29 said:
Does anyone know if Affinity Photo have revised their crappy highlight recover yet?
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No idea, but Capture One is very good ... in terms of revealing detail that is genuinely there, without AI-ing it. :)
 
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