Please settle an argument- aperture priority & low light?

Twizzel

Twizzel

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Dinner time was not a good event tonight, dad and I had a blazing row first over jobs, and then over photography.

When I'm out doing horse shows, I use aperture priority set at about f4, on a Sigma 70-200 2.8 lens. I used to use shutter priority, but having been introduced to aperture priority by a pro this season, haven't used SP since.

My shots have been consistently sharp, not over/under exposed, nice depth of frame.

Dad told me tonight that under no circumstances whatsoever could I use aperture priority for sports when the light is rubbish. Despite me telling him yes I could (and did yesterday!) he still said I would HAVE to use shutter priority.

He said it so much that I'm beginning to question my own judgement. I'm now looking back at some photos taken on dark gloomy days and think they look ok?

5209_100949382922_502157922_2194526_1251642_n.jpg

(Taken yesterday, just before the heavens opened, what you can't see is the jet black sky behind me)

4434_87247557922_502157922_1977340_7388183_n.jpg

Taken during a downpour, light was awful, foggy and gloomy.

4434_87247597922_502157922_1977346_4210532_n.jpg

Taken on the same day as above.

So those of you that shoot sports, which setting do you use? I'm so confused now, as I thought I was getting some nice shots even in such bad light, but now I'm being told in a very dogmatic manner that I shouldn't ever think about using aperture priority in bad light? :shrug:
 
TerryO said:
Twizzel, is this not a case where the results speak for them selves?
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I don't know!! I put up my side of the argument but he just wouldn't listen and kept banging on about how I was wrong. There's only so much you can take before you actually question your own judgement.

Then I had the "well you've obviously been doing photography a lot longer than me so you know everything" line, at which point I began to wonder whether I was right or not? :shrug:
 
I can see where Dad is going with this but it's not really that simple.

I suspect that his reasoning for suggesting SP is that if the light dips then the camera will happily throw in shutter speeds that won't freeze the action and leave you with a blury mess.

BUT..... if the light is that low and you're on SP, you camera will tell you that it can't shoot as your at your widest aperture and still under exposed. I suppose doing things this way around, you know that your out of light and you can up the ISO or stop shooting.

If you were on AP, you might be shooting away and not know that your getting movement blur. After all, everything looks good on a 2inch LCD.

Personally, control over DoF very nearly always sits higher in my priorities than control over movement. With cars and bikes being about the only exception that I ever shoot.

So for me, I'd take the risk of AP and keep an eye on what shutter I'm getting. After all, it's right there in your face as your shooting.
 
Use what suits you and gets results for you.Aperture priority seems to be fine in your case.
 
Twizzel said:
"well you've obviously been doing photography a lot longer than me so you know everything"
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Hey I'm a dad and use that kind of line a lot! (teenagers!) But hopefully only on the really important things. Don't let it worry you just look at your shots. It's already been said - I think they speak for themselves, especially when you have noticed an improvement after moving from SP.
 
If you want sharp shots, there is a minimum shutter speed for sports, what that speed is depends on the sport.
There was obviously enough light to shoot fast in those photos.
The other factor is iso sensitivity, I doubt aperture is that much of a problem at those distances.
It would be easier to point out why the photo's are sharp if they contained exif, I've been having trouble finding anything that works with flippin FireFox, so apologies if they do have exif.....spell checker doesn't work...exif viewer doesn't work properly.......mumble grumble...blah



*note, add-on English dictionary to Firefox stupidz*
 
Twizzel said:
Dinner time was not a good event tonight, dad and I had a blazing row first over jobs, and then over photography.

When I'm out doing horse shows, I use aperture priority set at about f4, on a Sigma 70-200 2.8 lens. I used to use shutter priority, but having been introduced to aperture priority by a pro this season, haven't used SP since.

My shots have been consistently sharp, not over/under exposed, nice depth of frame.

Dad told me tonight that under no circumstances whatsoever could I use aperture priority for sports when the light is rubbish. Despite me telling him yes I could (and did yesterday!) he still said I would HAVE to use shutter priority.

He said it so much that I'm beginning to question my own judgement. I'm now looking back at some photos taken on dark gloomy days and think they look ok?


So those of you that shoot sports, which setting do you use? I'm so confused now, as I thought I was getting some nice shots even in such bad light, but now I'm being told in a very dogmatic manner that I shouldn't ever think about using aperture priority in bad light? :shrug:
Click to expand...


Twizzel, can I ask you: what do you think is more important when shooting a moving object (like a horse), aperture or shutter speed?
 
I favour shutter priority in low light, as I can find a compromise between too dark and too blurry while staying in control. Having less experience with aperture priority, I can't say for sure whether you'd have that same level of control. For your event, there was enough light for it to work, but somewhere darker (a poorly-lit gig for example), I've found aperture priority to be hopeless.
 
I tend to shoot 90% of my equine stuff in aperture priority as it gives me better control over dof but in you must keep an eye on your shutter speed as well and adjust the ISO if necessary.

They are your images so shoot using whatever you are comfortable with and whatever gives you the results.
 
I found that when shooting in aperture priority, I always have a nice depth of frame, and then the image is sharp due to the shutter speed increasing to whatever it has to. Oh god I'm not explaining myself very well here...

When I was shooting in shutter priority, I was finding that images were sharpish (but due to the fixed shutter speed some were coming out soft as the shutter speed obviously needed to be higher), and my images were quite flat, with DOF not great.

I'm getting in such a muddle... I know what I want to say, I'm just not very good at explaining it :(
 
I think your Dad may be saying that by using Aperture mode if the light is insuficient then the shutter speed will drop to something below that required to freeze the action. What you need to remember that cloudy/overcast days does not always mean poor light it is just more diffused. So even on cloudy days (and this is in part proved by your shots) there will be enough light to give a shutter speed to freeze the action. What you are doing is not wrong but you may not be giving yourself the best chance to get the shot if the light is bad.

IMHO ..... No right or wrong ways in Photography .... just different! and difference of opinions.

Nice shots by the way .... I would try and get a bit more BOKEH as the difficult backgrounds take some impact away from the subject. Dependant on lens though.

Paul
 
As pointed out above, it depends on the subject your photographing. As the speed of show jumping is relatively slow compared to say motorsport for example, in poor light it's easier to capture the action and achieve slightly higher Apertures because shutter speeds aren't so important, on the other hand, say for lowfly photography, shutter speeds are important to get better results. Depends whether you need to control aperture or shutter for your images.

ISO 800, TV 1/1300, AV F4
IMG_3794_edited-2.jpg


ISO 200, TV 1/200, AV f7.1
IMG_2768_edited-2.jpg


Peter
 
To be honest I don't think it worth getting too upset about.

Aperture/Shutter/Program are not so different. All of them are balancing shutter speed and aperture based on the exposure mode you have selected.

OK the parameter that you set is different, but the camera is still going to make the other decision based on its exposure program.

As long as you keep an eye on the setting that the camera is choosing and are aware of the implications and are ready to step in with Iso changes then there is no problem.
 
It doesn't really matter. If you have control of one parameter and let the meter set the other (aperture/shutter) then you are probably going to end up with the same (or very similar) settings whichever way you do it.

If you get better results using one method rather than the other then that is what you should use.


Steve.
 
What about shooting a f/2.8 lens at f/4, the dof can't be an issue at tele lengths, so we are losing a stop of shutter speed for nothing.
Possibly its an issue at double figure lengths and diagonal composition, but its a sacrifice worth making I think.
 
There is probably a crossover point where the shutter speed required becomes THE most critical factor such as with really, really fast things as pointed out above but as Hacker can very ably attest to the horses are not moving at the speed of an aircraft!

So long as you check from time to time that the general light levels give you the shutter speed you need and shift the ISO to compensate then shoot away!

I have tried both, (one with each camera) at a wedding because I've worked out that I need a minimum of 1/60 sec. When the light drops too much for the shutter speed the aperture just blinks at you so at least I get a warning to prompt me to up the ISO, but as a functioning adult who can read I can check the shutter speeds in AP anyway!!
 
Just to come back to this again, there is actually a good case for using aperture priority as the best way to control the shutter speed.

If you're in AP and you've nailed the lens open, you know your getting the fastest shutter speed, however the light changes.
 
dazzajl said:
If you're in AP and you've nailed the lens open, you know your getting the fastest shutter speed, however the light changes.
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That's it - in a nutshell. ;)

You're never going to get a faster shutter speed at any ISO and prevailing light conditions than you will with the lens wide open. That's how I shoot most of the time -usually struggling for a fast enough shutter speed. Stopping down is a luxury I don't enjoy often enough.
 
In 26 years of professional photography, shooting equestrian subjects, coursing as well as sheet metal, powerboats and aviation industry stuff, I have used Shutter Priority very little -

The Nikon FA had an excellent system of shutter priority, which I did use for action. You could set your shutter speed and it would run down the apertures as the light dropped, until when you hit rock bottom it would then still shoot, but it started to chip away at the shutter speed, just enough to balance the EV.

If you can't tell, by lookng at the ambient light that it is too dark for your settings, then you are not taking enough notice of your surroundings and how they affect your shooting.

Use Apertture, and watch the shutter speed - to adjust, remain in Aperture and use the exp comp dial - job done.
 
PS - in your first shot, if you had a big, black cloud behind you - you should have moved to use it as the background. You don't get the chance for dramaitc lighting like that very often - use it when it happens!
 
I'm just wondering are you working for your dad? if he's the boss then I'd suggest doing it his way, if not then do it your way. I know a few sports togs who use AP rather than SP.
 
Surely what matters is what aperture/ISO/shutter setting is used to take the shot :| Does the method you use to get to those settings really matter that much? :wacky:
 
I'd stick with AP if this is what you are most comfortable with, and just keep an eye on shutter speed...up the ISO if it drops too low to handhold. I guess that at the distances from the horse that you usually are, a shallow DoF won't affect getting the whole horse in focus, but to be sure, just keep focal points over the face.

Nowt wrong with the shots posted......though maybe an even shallower DOF might have blurred the background a bit more???

Just out of interest, do you use single focus or continuous/servo for this kind of shooting?
 
Lensflare said:
PS - in your first shot, if you had a big, black cloud behind you - you should have moved to use it as the background. You don't get the chance for dramaitc lighting like that very often - use it when it happens!
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It would have made a fantastic photo! But I was outside of the ring, so if I had moved round to face the cloud, I wouldn't have been able to shoot that jump :(

No I don't work for my dad, he doesn't do any professional photography, and doesn't even shoot sports, which is why I got a little bit annoyed when he started lecturing me on what settings to use :puke: At the end of the day yes it's down to personal preference, but I just wanted him to see that having used both methods, aperture priority works better for me, but he wouldn't accept it :(

What dazzajl said is what I've been trying to say all along, that's exactly what I meant!

Lensflare what's the exp comp dial?

I'm pretty sure I used AI servo for this kind of shooting though don't quote me on it as I could be wrong!!
 
I use shutter priority for my equine shots. Originally I did use aperture but I was unhappy with the results. It was a pro who nudged me over to shutter priority. That was some time ago now.... maybe I'll go out and do a personal study covering both :)
 
I do a lot of indoor horse event photography and find that I switch between the modes, if one isn't giving quite good enough results I try the other. The indoor venue lighting can be a nightmare and trying to get sharp jumping pics indoors can be a right pain in the butt no matter what settings you use. Mind you upgrading from a D80 to D700 made one heck of a difference :eek:).

Auto ISO is a wonderful for adapting to the different lighting patches in the old arenas and I've even taken to adjusting the white balance by Kelvin temp to get a decent image in the orange lighting of some places.
 
apologies for interrupting this really educational thread with a novice question, but I wanted to ask that under AP, does the camera automatically know you are shooting a fast moving object and pick the best shutter speed? So given there is enough light, would it always pick the right speed/i.e the fastest?
 
hsuffyan said:
apologies for interrupting this really educational thread with a novice question, but I wanted to ask that under AP, does the camera automatically know you are shooting a fast moving object and pick the best shutter speed? So given there is enough light, would it always pick the right speed/i.e the fastest?
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No, it doesn't know what you are shooting. What cameras do does is automatically link aperture and shutter speed to set the correct exposure to suit ambient light conditions. So the wider the aperture, the faster the shutter and conversely, the smaller the aperture, the slower the shutter.
 
Of course the more perfect solution is to shoot in aperture priority (so you can control your DOF and achieve better subject isolation) and use auto-ISO...

With Nikon's auto-iso you set a minimum shutter speed (which will be high in this case to freeze the action) and then the camera just bounces around the ISO to achieve the minimum shutter speed you desire whilst keeping the aperture you also desire...

Job done!

I use that for motorcross, which is quite similar in demands.

The only problem you can get is of course too much light...
 
The amount of light hitting the sensor will be the same in either AV or TV.

It is normal to chose TV when you need to set a shutter speed to stop action.
And use AV when depth of field is the important factor.
Which to use, is down to an intelligent appraisal of the subject matter.

Most sports and fast moving subject benefit from choosing a shutter speed, that either stops action or allows for panning blur.

A right choice reduces the element of Luck involved.
 
Gofer said:
Twizzel, can I ask you: what do you think is more important when shooting a moving object (like a horse), aperture or shutter speed?
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Think this is a very sensible question which probably explains your Dad's train of thought.

If I knew I'd have to maintain, for example, a minimum of 1/400 sec for a sharp horse shot then there are a few ways round it.

1, Use Av. Make sure you have the lens wide open on an ISO setting that would achieve such a shutter speed or faster. But if it got dark say approaching dusk you could find yourself dropping to slower than 1/400 and end up with blurry shots.

2, Use Tv set to 1/400. The camera will use an aperature of say f/11 when it's bright and maybe f/5.6 when it's getting dull. But if it got dark approaching dusk the lens will go fully wide e.g. f/4.5 and then the camera will start forcing the shutter speed to slower than 1/400. Again blurry shots.

3, Use Tv set to 1/400. If you're really border line with the aperature becoming fully wide open, you could keep adjusting the ISO to suit or use AutoISO (although on a Canon this will make the slowest setting at ISO400)

Use 1,2 or 3.

1 will require you to keep an eye on how the shutter speed changes following alterations in lighting conditions. If you don't keep an eye on it, you could find yourself with a few blurry shots by mistake.

2 isn't really more secure than 1 although if you were using the camera wide open like in 1 again you'll end up with blurry shots as the camera has no option but to go slow on the shutter speed.

3 is secure. You'll always end up with the right shutter speed. If the camera senses it will underexpose it will bump up the ISO to suit.

If however, realistically you have lots of light you should have no issues using aperture priority. If the light drops off and you weren't watching the shutter speed being applied you could find youself with blurry shots.

You can use whatever method you want but its important to keep an eye on what the camera is doing.

PS I used 3 above the other week. My zoom lens is f/5.6 so quite annoying and slow. I was taking shots of a bear in the wild. As the bear moved in and out of the forest, the light was drastically changing as he'd walk in to the low 6am morning light or back in to the shade darkness of the forest. I decided that at the focal length of 350mm, that 1/400 would be suitable for a sharp shot. However I found I was constantly changing my ISO to get the camera to stay on this speed as it was quite dark. So I wacked it on Auto ISO to help me round it.
 
30psi said:
2, Use Tv set to 1/400. The camera will use an aperature of say f/11 when it's bright and maybe f/5.6 when it's getting dull. But if it got dark approaching dusk the lens will go fully wide e.g. f/4.5 and then the camera will start forcing the shutter speed to slower than 1/400. Again blurry shots.
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Will it? On my old Canon it will just sit there flashing the aperture figure in the view finder and not lettting me take the photo...

3, Use Tv set to 1/400. If you're really border line with the aperature becoming fully wide open, you could keep adjusting the ISO to suit or use AutoISO (although on a Canon this will make the slowest setting at ISO400)
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Canon auto ISO is 400 upwards? Really? Thats pants!
 
Interesting that it wouldn't let you take the shot. The only time my Canon does that is when it can't focus.

Yep ISO400 upwards. A pain really, if it was 100 upwards it would be great, so I only use it for difficult situations where I want to secure the best ISO with a suitable aperature and shutter speed
 
To be fair, my Canon 30D had a custom function in the menu which is called "shot saver" or something like that that would do what you describe and shift the shutter speed down if you shot in shutter priority but the aperture couldnt open any wider...

Which is fine, unless of course the shutter speed was critical, which it probably is if I have selected shutter priority :D
 
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