potentially dumb question?

clud17

clud17

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Chris
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Having not tried an ND grad filter yet and starting to think about getting one i have a dumb question.

having seen then in online shops i notice that the darker glass is roughly to half way down. Given that a landscape benefits from rule of thirds, why wouldnt it apply to a filter?

im sure there is a good explanation out there but my work frazzled brain cant find it.
 
The rule of thirds can mean the top third or bottom third. And anyway, like all rules is there to be broken.
 
I'm pretty sure you can alter where the filter sits, so the transition would happen where you want it to.
 
i'm guessing if stopped at a third (or as aberal above mentions rules are made to be broken) - then the division between grad and non grad would be too extreme.

Not got a graduated ND (until Postie rocks up tomorrow) but as the name suggests, I am guessing blends in from dark to clear subtley........
 
It wouldn't, I only ever see square grads, not that I ever look for round ones...
I know a pro who doesn't use a holder, just his hand to hold the grad in front of the lens.
 
square filters have enough room to move them up or down to put the horizon of the filter where the horizon is in your composition.

Circular though, I wouldn't even bother :shrug:
 
I know in the long run a square system would be a better option but i have a selection of CP and ND and some adaptor rings so starting off again with say a cokin p set up seems a bit of a waste. Are they that much easier or better to use?
 
clud17 said:
I know in the long run a square system would be a better option but i have a selection of CP and ND and some adaptor rings so starting off again with say a cokin p set up seems a bit of a waste. Are they that much easier or better to use?
Click to expand...

You wouldn't have to ditch the old ones. Why not use a mix of square and round? The main advantage of square is that with the right adapter rings a few quid's worth of metal) you can use the same one filter on all of your lenses.
 
Even when the grad line is right across the middle, with a soft cut it generally only darkens the top third. You can effectively 'pull it down' by using a higher f/number - basically vary the amount of darkening, and where the line starts, with aperture.

I have used a screw in grad a lot without any trouble. If you really get stuck with positioning, zoom back so that you can compose the shot with the grad line as you want it, then crop in post processing. Not ideal of course, but if the alternative is to faff about with a square filter system all the time, it's maybe an acceptable compromise.

I only have a few filters - just the ones you actually want to use regularly - and they are all screw in, high quality, multicoated glass. The best thing is that none of them vignette even at 10mm :thumbs: Can you do that with a square system holder? Maybe. Maybe not :thinking:
 
HoppyUK said:
Even when the grad line is right across the middle, with a soft cut it generally only darkens the top third. You can effectively 'pull it down' by using a higher f/number - basically vary the amount of darkening, and where the line starts, with aperture.

I have used a screw in grad a lot without any trouble. If you really get stuck with positioning, zoom back so that you can compose the shot with the grad line as you want it, then crop in post processing. Not ideal of course, but if the alternative is to faff about with a square filter system all the time, it's maybe an acceptable compromise.

I only have a few filters - just the ones you actually want to use regularly - and they are all screw in, high quality, multicoated glass. The best thing is that none of them vignette even at 10mm :thumbs: Can you do that with a square system holder? Maybe. Maybe not :thinking:
Click to expand...

:D You can if you don't mind holding the perspex filter up against the rim of the lens by hand. I've taken to doing this recently (on sub-30 second exposures), as it's the only way that I can avoid vignetting on some of my lenses :( and if your feeling especially cheeky, you can even slide it around a little during the longer exposures to blur the "line" between light and dark a little :naughty: (although this may only make any real difference with bigger apertures).

This season, Cokin P's are out - fingers are in :lol:!
 
Naboo32 said:
:D You can if you don't mind holding the perspex filter up against the rim of the lens by hand. I've taken to doing this recently (on sub-30 second exposures), as it's the only way that I can avoid vignetting on some of my lenses :( and if your feeling especially cheeky, you can even slide it around a little during the longer exposures to blur the "line" between light and dark a little :naughty: (although this may only make any real difference with bigger apertures).

This season, Cokin P's are out - fingers are in :lol:!
Click to expand...

Yes, that will work! Or you can stick em on with blu tack. But what's the point when I almost always stick it across the middle anyway, and float it with the f/number? You can still rotate it of course.

I thought about getting nice Lee square system but that's a lot of money for something I would only use occasionally, plus all that gaboodle to carry around. No thanks :D

And I almost forgot, with screw-ins you can still use the proper lens hood :thumbs:
 
so a mixed bag of opinions, thanks everyone. a bit of knowledge makes the choice a more informed one, :lol: but still no idea!

i can see the pro's and cons of both and im sure whichever way i choose i will then advocate that to anyone who asks me.
 
Screw in ND grads - with respect, Mr Hopkins, ......avoid!

It's absolutely not necessary to use a holder with square ND grads, with a possible exception if you're not using a tripod. But you do use a tripod, don't you?

I've been using ND grads for many years and have never used a holder. You can always see the division in the viewfinder, in my experience.

It's a good idea to move it up and down a bit to "blur" the division - I hadn't thought of that! And you still don't need a holder!
 
HoppyUK said:
Or you can stick em on with blu tack. But what's the point when I almost always stick it across the middle anyway, and float it with the f/number? You can still rotate it of course.
Click to expand...

I don't understand this. Changing aperture will just broaden or narrow the transition band, not move the centre point up or down.


Steve.
 
jerry12953 said:
Screw in ND grads - with respect, Mr Hopkins, ......avoid!

It's absolutely not necessary to use a holder with square ND grads, with a possible exception if you're not using a tripod. But you do use a tripod, don't you?

I've been using ND grads for many years and have never used a holder. You can always see the division in the viewfinder, in my experience.

It's a good idea to move it up and down a bit to "blur" the division - I hadn't thought of that! And you still don't need a holder!
Click to expand...

Haha ;) No respect necessary, and I do accept your comments :thumbs: I also concede that I am lazy, no I don't use a tripod unless the shutter speed demands it, but I don't accept that screw in grads should automatically be avoided.

They are available as screw-ins because they can be perfectly usable, and I've been doing that quite successfully for a long time, using it in the manner I've described. However, I am not a dedicated landscaper or grad geek and if I was I would get a Lee square system for sure.

How do you move a grad up and down to blur the transition? My exposures are nowhere near long enough to do that.
 
never needed to blur my grads by moving them... there are two types of grad Hard and Soft hard grads have a very definite line perfect for say a sea scape where there is sea and sky however for landscape work you would want a soft grad where the transition between the dark and the light fades to unnoticeable. lee, singh ray and tiffen are the kings here but next on the list for quality are the hitech filters and then last on the list is cokin and bay specials the latter two will give a magenta cast to your images/sky, this can be removed in photoshop and some people even like the purple hue it gives the clouds.
"Grad geeks" in general go for the lee's;);)
 
Steve Smith said:
I don't understand this. Changing aperture will just broaden or narrow the transition band, not move the centre point up or down.

Steve.
Click to expand...

You are referring to floating the transition line up and down with f/number.

I said in an earlier post that this was an 'effective' movement of the transition line. Of course the line itself does not move, as you say.

However, the effect of the transition is highly dependent of f/number as it is subject to depth of field. It is increasingly pulled into slightly sharper focus as f/number is increased, and this has the 'effect' of pulling the grad line down, hardening it, and it can also darken the top of the frame. For the same reason, using a grad on a long lens is a waste of time - it just disappears.

If you are prepared to mess around with f/numbers, it is possible to get, in practise, a virtually identical result from a 2-stop hard cut and a 3-stop soft cut. I don't recommend it as there are usually other considerations which make a certain f/number preferable and in that sense it is much better to have a range of grads available, in a sliding holder, but the real point is, f/number makes a huge difference even when using the same filter.
 
HoppyUK said:
Haha ;) No respect necessary, and I do accept your comments :thumbs: I also concede that I am lazy, no I don't use a tripod unless the shutter speed demands it, but I don't accept that screw in grads should automatically be avoided.

They are available as screw-ins because they can be perfectly usable, and I've been doing that quite successfully for a long time, using it in the manner I've described. However, I am not a dedicated landscaper or grad geek and if I was I would get a Lee square system for sure.

How do you move a grad up and down to blur the transition? My exposures are nowhere near long enough to do that.
Click to expand...

Sorry, Hoppy, the post was a response to the OP, but knowing you'd read it, I put that comment in ........
 
I think if you are really serious, then square filters are the way to go. However, I think that you can still get some passable results using screw-ins:

 
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