Presenting photos with no exif data

Page 4. Has he told us what he's learned from reading exif data yet?
Sort of...
Okay, I am not an artist...

I see people's photo art on web sites and although I will probably never have that artistic flare to create something fantastic and original myself, I can at least sometimes see the technical data, as to what lens was used, shutter speed, type of camera etc..... This gives ME a basis to try and capture a picture for myself, that will resemble those of a real artist. For ME it is a starting point to pay homage to the incredible effort and talent that went into the original work, where the photographer obviously got up at 3am, maybe walked several miles, was cold, uncomfortable, then, via his/her artistic talent creates with the camera and post processing, something that can bring tears to the eyes.

As I said, seeing the EXIF data helps ME, but it also helps other people evidently. Is that a good enough explanation?

Bonkers!
As many have already dispelled the myth that the same settings will yield the same results.

And as I showed, vastly different results can be had with 'the same settings'.

The OP has asserted its useful, I'd like to see an image of his, with a comparison to a shot he was 'copying' which would prove his point.

To copy his analogy, there's thousands of clips on YouTube of people creating note perfect copies of the work of Hendrix / Jimmy Page etc. so he ought to be able to show the same with a photo;)
 
To me its is not a good thing to do, removing the EXFI, as this leaves your images open to be used as there is no copyright in the EXIF so making more likely someone might take them without asking, more so when posted at large sized as many do.
And as everyone has said, the vast majority of photographers don't purposely remove exif (but the default export for web strips everything... except copyright info)
 
Shame on you for invoking the name.
Now, you go and sit in the corner and think about what you did!


Only said it once - and even then, not the whole thing. (Mainly because I can't remember his last name!)
 
Page 4. Has he told us what he's learned from reading exif data yet?

Yes, in post 115

I may not agree with his motives particularly, but it's fair enough - that's how he feels, and if he feels that he'll actually benefit more in the long run by taking his preferred course of action and "boycotting" any non-exif containing images then that's his decision to make. Everyone elses mileage may vary.

As I see it, his choice is no different to my choosing not to give critique on nature pictures, street shots or macro images - because, I've nothing to bring to the table on those subjects. I don't GAIN anything by not contributing, but at least I don't upset people by saying what I feel about them.
 
Only said it once - and even then, not the whole thing. (Mainly because I can't remember his last name!)

Scri........No!!!! :runaway:
 
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The only reason I can think that the exif might be useful is for landscape photography, where knowing what focal length was used for a particular scene may prevent you from taking a 200mm lens where a 20mm lens was used if your intention was to go out and copy the same photograph, and this is sort of stretching it as usually you can get a half decent idea from looking at the image. If not you could always ask the photographer.

Other that this the only thing exif data achieves (for me) is make you wonder why your own pictures are worse than ones with comparable equipment or to lust after more expensive stuff in the hope that will make a difference to your own photography.

Due to changes in light, use of filters / editing techniques etc, exposure blending and focus stacking, flash, and this is just my opinion, I can not see what can be 'learned' from exif. In terms of not commenting on photographs without exif data, you may be missing out from leaning stuff by just asking the person what equipment they used, so could end up shooting yourself in the foot by not engaging with images with no exif info, when that information may be provided if you asked for it.
 
Er....... I look at exif data to learn. Reading other people's research or work is how you learn at school and uni, where would be if it was all kept secret?

Also, like I said, we are not back in the 60s and 70s, my view is that forums, where people post their photos for comments, should be supplying all the information that goes with the photo.

Whilst I see what you're saying (and I leave the exif data in unless it gets stripped accidentally) it's a rather moot issue. Photography is so dynamic and unpredictable (unless you're 100% studio based) that those same settings won't be relevant unless you're shooting in identical conditions.

I just look at exif to see what kit is being used out of pure curiosity [emoji3]
 
I think my main point is that a forum is not an art gallery.

I you see a painting that you love, you may buy it. You don't need to know how the artist painted it.

If you want to paint and are inspired by that piece of art, you will probably want someone to show you how to paint in his/her style, hence art courses.

If you want to play George Formby style ukulele banjo, can you just watch a film, sit down and play your new banjolele, of course not, there are many videos where people have posted lessons for free on YouTube to instruct.

This site is not an art gallery, it is a forum where many people want to learn. Just posting a piece of art so people can go oooooo.... arrrrrrr, in my opinion, is not the purpose of a comments forum. Included with the art should be as much information on how it was produced, to help others reproduce the effect they see and love.

Is that too much to ask?

Personally, I share my photos on here and Flickr simply because I enjoy doing so. I don't see the point in taking photographs and hiding them away for only my viewing.
 
Scri........No!!!! :runaway:
That's twice don't say it 3 times whatever you do!

FYI Scrivv has been posting under another name for some considerable time, although he logs in regularly, his last post under the pseudonym was nearly 2 years ago ;)
 
For example, guess what settings this was taken. The answer is...a crazy setting that I wouldn't suggest anyone using for city scape


ZcKEcWk.jpg

@Raymond Lin - I like your modern take on Edward Steichen's 1904 photo of New York's Flat Iron building - see http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/267803 - replacing the horse and carriage with a yellow cab.

Obviously you were lucky that Steichen didn't strip out the exif data, and so you stood a chance of replicating it! :);)
 
@Raymond Lin - I like your modern take on Edward Steichen's 1904 photo of New York's Flat Iron building - see http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/267803 - replacing the horse and carriage with a yellow cab.

Obviously you were lucky that Steichen didn't strip out the exif data, and so you stood a chance of replicating it! :);)

Lol he must have exposed -2 stops, tripod, lens shifted up (being large format it's easy) for a straight vertical. Although in those days there wouldn't be any light meter so it's mostly educated guess work using the sunny 16 rule.

But at least I didn't cut off the top :p
 
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I sometimes look at the basic exif of pics in the weekly challenge, as I get to know what cameras the entrants own and I'm sometimes intrigued ....

wonder if he used his full frame + nifty 50 or his RX100

I rarely take further interest.

My pics don't show exif because they get copy and pasted all over the place from Picasa3 to Gimp to Paint.net and more sometimes. I keep the sooc with exif attached.
 
the exif data is useful to the raw processor when it uses the camera settings you made and the inbuilt camera a lens data, to make automatic corrections.
It is also useful to panoramic programs like PTAssembler and PTGui as they can pick up the camera and lens focal length settings, which they need to use in stitching.
It is also useful when I am being overly curious as to camera and lens used by someone else.
It is virtually useless in teaching anyone how to take better photographs.

As programs are available that can edit Exif data it is virtually useless to prove anything at all about a photograph.

Many programs strip out exif data like it or not.
 
Surely the EXIF is b*gger all use without a diagram giving measurements of the scene and a lighting diagram complete with meter readings?

fwiw my standard Lightroom export presets are set to delete most of the EXIF 'cos I might not always want the information in there and I'm too lazy to mess about with different settings every time I export something.
 
Exif data can be interesting when comparing different images captured at the same time (more or less) using different camera settings and modes, but the same pov, focal length & angle-of-view on the same subject. But I just read that info on my camera which tells me more ... like integrated ND filter or HDR on or off, info that I believe is not included in the Exif.
 
Thanks for all your input although some of it was, I feel, somewhat hostile.

I am not sure whether some of you read my welcome post, but it clearly states that I was developing and printing from 8 years old, in other threads I stated that I have had an SQA with all the lenses, this was a pretty big investment in the eighties. I used ND filters and still have the full set of Cokin P Series plus gels, that I had plenty of fun with.

So, I think I may have been a bit flippant about my experience with photography, certainly on film I have had some great success and made money in the distant past, although this subject came third in line after Physics/Electronics and Guitar/Banjo.

I sold my SQA and lenses when I could see they would soon loose their value completely, and lo and behold, they did.

I didn't bother getting a DSLR, I had bridge cameras with some zoom, Fuji, Canon and Lumix. They all created RAW, and I understood about bracketing 3 to 5 raw files and creating a merge in Photoshop, I understood this was the post processing that I would do with B&W film and the pro lab would do for me in colour.

I am not sure, but perhaps some of you thought that I was stating EXIF data is THE way to learn photography or that I was saying it was my main source of learning, I don't think I ever stated that. EXIF data for me, and many others is a learning aid. Although I have had a lot of comments on this thread regarding past ability at teaching, I have a wealth of qualified experience and understand that students have different methods of learning, they can use many different sources and I would never DICTATE which source is right or wrong, as long as the student gets something out of it, and achieves the required result.

There are many experienced professional photographers that have stated in articles that EXIF data has been useful to them in learning, stating on here that it won't tell you what ND filter is on the camera to me is irrelevant, as I can probably work that out myself. I suppose I have been used to taking as much data as possible and using it to my advantage, in my usual environment with learned colleagues, that is the norm.

I still stand behind my scan comment in the OP, and I do think that some people intentionally keep their techniques secret, as Phil V pointed out with his Jimmy Page comment, this is human nature. I am a sceptic, this is the only reason I will only like photos with EXIF data, but this is just a choice I can make,

My OP was hoping to encourage more to keep their EXIF data intact for the benefit, OR NOT, of others, it was not meant to be an outright attack on those using film or those who unintentionally strip their data in Photoshop or pro filter software.

If my statements offended the innocent, please accept my apology.
 
I'm sorry if I appear harsh but I do feel that you would benefit from a little less self edifying waffle and a little more consideration of the subleties of written English.

I still don't know what you gain from exif. I still don't know what you think others gain from exif. I still don't know if you are unable to consider how others might interpret your, at best, ambiguity on the subject.

As long as you're happy though.
 
No offence taken.

I do think that some people intentionally keep their techniques secret

I think I missed that bit but sounds at bit conspiracy theorist. We are talking mere photographs here aren't we, innocent pleasing images?
 
If someone wanted to keep their (exif) secrets they wouldn't post any images.

What a ridiculous thread :)
 
I am not sure whether some of you read my welcome post,
Not relevant. People read what you wrote. You demonstrated an inability or more likely unwillingness to read the comments and it went from there. My only advice to you is "stop digging a hole when you are in it".
 
I'm sorry if I appear harsh but I do feel that you would benefit from a little less self edifying waffle and a little more consideration of the subleties of written English.

I still don't know what you gain from exif. I still don't know what you think others gain from exif. I still don't know if you are unable to consider how others might interpret your, at best, ambiguity on the subject.

As long as you're happy though.

Self edifying waffle? Do you understand what this means, I don't think you do? How could I be educating or enlightening myself from what I am writing? Please explain.

If someone wanted to keep their (exif) secrets they wouldn't post any images.

What a ridiculous thread :)

Another put-down

Not relevant. People read what you wrote. You demonstrated an inability or more likely unwillingness to read the comments and it went from there. My only advice to you is "stop digging a hole when you are in it".

I never was and never will be in a hole over my statement in this thread.

Four posts since my last and three of them are, well.... waffle, ridiculous and not relevant :)

It certainly has shown the closed-mindedness and pack mentality of some members at least...... enjoy.
 
I did read your other post, and to be honest that confused me. I couldn't see (and still can't see) what benefit you could extract from exif data given your previous history and experience; by this time I would have expected exposure to be second nature, depth of field something you'd been made visually aware of long ago from the scales on the lenses and shutter speeds to be pretty self evident. Clearly I am wrong.

This thread did make me look more closely at exif data; and very surprising it was. I found that the exif data on one photograph I recently edited for a book cover was rather unexpected. Looking first at the jpg straight from the camera (a Sony a7r which I've never used with a flash), I was surprised to find that the illumination was flash; but happily it didn't overpower the outdoor sun (behind me, no fill in needed) because the exif also told me that the non existent flash didn't fire. When it came to looking at the exif data from the final version, which had been through a raw editor and then Photoshop I found that it was taken two years (approx) after the jpg, and didn't have a date that matched the actual date that I did the processing anyway. So I am even less impressed at the reliability of the data.

Obviously (sorry!:D) different genres of photography have different priorities; my own interests lie rather heavily on the art rather than record side. I fully appreciate the importance of the technical side of photography, but don't worry too much about it. Getting the exposure right is pretty much of a given; getting the appropriate aperture for the depth of field I want is simple as I use a view camera and can check on screen; what appears sharp there will also appear sharp on a 20x16/A2 print, and that's enough for me. Shutter speed is then determined - although I might sacrifice depth of field for motion stopping if leaves are waving around too much. BUT these decisions won't be apparent from the exif data (which from a view camera doesn't exist); and if I used a camera which did produce exif data, the same is still true.

For my type of photography, I'd have half a dozen or so books that I'd recommend, and none of them are written by or for photographers. These days, you can set the camera on auto and it will get it right most of the time. For far more of the time than a photographer will, in terms of images worth keeping even though technically perfect.

It used to be said that you learned what came out of the end of your pencil rather than what went in through your eyes (or ears); the idea being that thinking about something, expressing it in words or checking your understanding through exercises was what fixed the ideas and cemented the understanding of them. On that basis, carefully looking at and studying images and writing a critique of them (even if never communicated - that's not important) would teach someone far more than studying exif data which is relevant only to the one example, and devoid of any reasoning as to why the choices that were made were made.

Not all "big name" photographers have tried to keep their methods secret; look at the writings of Ansel Adams (and there are many others). Nor do I think that there's any great conspiracy to keep the dark arts within a narrow circle. From reading many of the comments in this thread, it seems far more likely that experienced photographers are aware that the settings contained in exif data won't reveal anything of the "magic" behind the image; that came from the photographer's own understanding of the processes and their own vision. What came in through their eyes and passed through their brains had a bigger influence on the photograph than what came though the lens, because they chose the viewpoint and the lens to reveal what they saw and felt, and then carried it through the subsequent stages. None of this is documented in exif data.

No offence taken, and I'll get over the fact that you won't like any of my non-record photographs because they are taken on film :).
 
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I suppose I have been used to taking as much data as possible and using it to my advantage, in my usual environment with learned colleagues, that is the norm.

You can take in as much data as you like, but taking in the wrong data never works well. Try taking in pictures instead of numbers for a change.

Hope this helps. :)
 
There are no "secrets" hidden in exif data that is useful to any one.
Exif data "capture" data only applies to the camera settings used under the express conditions found at the point of exposure.
They can not be transposed to other conditions.

Few famous photographers have been secretive about their methods. Virtually all have brought on assistants, written books, given masterclasses and talks.
Those that have fewer of these social skills have had their work reviewed and books and articles written about them.
Photography is not a secretive profession.
Photographers are pretty well universally generous with their knowledge and skills.

It would take someone who has failed completely in their mastery of the subject,
to think that other photographers might feel it necessary to hide their most valuable secrets from anyone.

That is the way of paranoia. ...
 
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There are no "secrets" hidden in exif data that is useful to any one.
Exif data "capture" data only applies to the camera settings used under the express conditions found at the point of exposure.
They can not be transposed to other conditions.

Few famous photographers have been secretive about thir methods. Virtually all have brought on assistants, written books, given masterclasses and talks.
Those that have fewer of these social skills have had their work reviewed and books and articles written about them.
Photography is not a secretavive profession.
Photographers are pretty well universally generous with their knowledge and skills.

It would take someone who has failed completely in their mastery of the subject,
to think that other photographers might feel it necessary to hide their most valuable secrets from anyone.

That is the way of paranoia. ...
This^
I've never met a photographer who wasn't keen to share 'secrets', likewise guitarists.

Indeed, if the OP's assumption about photographers being secretive was correct, there'd be no forum for him to post this on.
 
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