Public or Private. How do you know?

ferjphoto

ferjphoto

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So I'm looking at spending a bit of time shooting some street photography and I know from my research you cannot shoot on private land. My question is how do you know what is public & what is private?

I mean some private land is obvious but some isn't and I'm not wanting to fall foul of the law! Any help appreciated!
 
not obvious are Royal parks (crown property)- shopping arcades - airports are all private property so permission may have to be sought first. What can be confusing is outdoor events such as showgrounds or areas of parks for events. These are normally public places but as the area is being used by say a dog show for example they are then private areas. Tthe event organisers have obtained a licence to hold the show so actually in theory they own the ground while the show is in progress. If in doubt say in London around certain areas photography may not be allowed, so always best to ask if in doubt. Areas outside building may also have indications that show the part that is private on the pavement. Banks and government buildings the security people may approach and question.
If I do this type of photography I try and make sure children are not in the scene as this could cause a problem

Just my thoughts others may disagree

Tip
if asked to remove a photo don't argue just delete (not format) it can be recovered later with a photo recovery program. The average person is not aware this can be done. Keeps police -security and others happy
 
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Most of the land in England & Wales (let's avoid Scotland because it is a LOT more complicated) is privately owned.
That even covers land with public access, such as parks and common land, which are usually owned by local authorities and administered by them.

Even pavements outside urban areas are often private land with public access, because the land under the road surface is owned by someone with the only obvious
rights to the public being that of pass and repass.
 
I think you need to be clear on the wording of the legislation first, it states "public place" not land. A useful guide is here. but a snippet from that says:

"Public Place" is not defined in legislation. A public place is usually a place to which the public are allowed to have access freely and without payment or permission. This includes any public highway or footpath. The inside of a car is also considered as a public place, unless it is parked on private property.

The website I took that from is here: https://www.blpawards.org/competition/photo-rights

And this from another website:

A public space is a social space that is generally open and accessible to people, such as; roads (including the pavement), public squares, parks and beaches. Photographers can freely take pictures of any buildings, sculptures, models, works, artistic craftsmanship in a public place without fear of ever violating copyright.

There is also similar wording on many Police websites.

So, I say go out, make images and enjoy yourself, if you are challenged just pack up and walk on by if you don't want any confrontation. But in my experience, I have never been challenged.
 
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Thanks for the responses, not quite so worried now! Looking forward to having some time in the future to head out and see how I get on.

Unfortunately I'm not in a big town or city but will work with what I've got and get some practice in!
 
FlyPhot said:
And this from another website:

A public space is a social space that is generally open and accessible to people, such as; roads (including the pavement), public squares, parks and beaches. Photographers can freely take pictures of any buildings, sculptures, models, works, artistic craftsmanship in a public place without fear of ever violating copyright.
Click to expand...

That's compounding X from copyright law, Y from trespass and making SOUP the result.

Just because an area has public access (a royal park, a shopping centre, a railway station etc) it does not mean that you have a right to take photographs as you wish. You don't.
 
DemiLion said:
That's compounding X from copyright law, Y from trespass and making SOUP the result.

Just because an area has public access (a royal park, a shopping centre, a railway station etc) it does not mean that you have a right to take photographs as you wish. You don't.
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It would seem that the law would disagree with you:

From the Devon and Cornwall police website (most other constabularies have a similar page: https://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/advice/your-community/taking-photographs-in-a-public-space/

Definition of a Public Space: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1972/71/section/33

Are you sure you're not talking about making moetary gain from such photographs? i.e. When you create an original artwork, such as a sculpture, painting or photograph, it is automatically protected by copyright law. As a result, if your street scene contains protected artworks (including shop logos) in a prominent position (rather than incidentally), and you plan to make your pictures commercially available, it’s advisable to obtain permission from the copyright owner. (Amateur Photographer magazine online)
 
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I would just go about your business until challenged in all honesty unless somewhere is obviously private/signed.

Some places also allow photos but not tripods but that's probably more of a H&S thing than professional/amateur thing I would guess.
 
FlyPhot said:
It would seem that the law would disagree with you:

From the Devon and Cornwall police website (most other constabularies have a similar page: https://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/advice/your-community/taking-photographs-in-a-public-space/

Definition of a Public Space: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1972/71/section/33

Are you sure you're not talking about making moetary gain from such photographs? i.e. When you create an original artwork, such as a sculpture, painting or photograph, it is automatically protected by copyright law. As a result, if your street scene contains protected artworks (including shop logos) in a prominent position (rather than incidentally), and you plan to make your pictures commercially available, it’s advisable to obtain permission from the copyright owner. (Amateur Photographer magazine online)
Click to expand...


Firstly That is a definition under the Public Order Act 1936 and the CJA 1972. It is for the purpose of assessing public versus private spaces when it comes to criminal acts of public order - for example indecency. It is not a legal definition of a 'public space' for the purposes of civil law.
It is defining a space that the public have access to and not defining the ownership of that space - or the associated licence granted for access.

As for the link from D&C that you posted, I suggest that you read the first line of the article very carefully.

I'm not even going to bother with the conflated copyright comment. It's utterly irrelevant to the issue at hand.
 
LeeRatters said:
I would just go about your business until challenged in all honesty unless somewhere is obviously private/signed.

Some places also allow photos but not tripods but that's probably more of a H&S thing than professional/amateur thing I would guess.
Click to expand...

My biggest worry these days over setting up a tripod in a public place is that I would be saying "I have expensive camera equipment, please wait until I have moved to a quiet area and then steal my stuff"!
 
DemiLion said:
Firstly That is a definition under the Public Order Act 1936 and the CJA 1972. It is for the purpose of assessing public versus private spaces when it comes to criminal acts of public order - for example indecency. It is not a legal definition of a 'public space' for the purposes of civil law.
It is defining a space that the public have access to and not defining the ownership of that space - or the associated licence granted for access.

As for the link from D&C that you posted, I suggest that you read the first line of the article very carefully.

I'm not even going to bother with the conflated copyright comment. It's utterly irrelevant to the issue at hand.
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OK, fine. I'm not here to get into an argument.

As i've already said to the OP, i've never had any trouble making images outside and i'm pretty confident that I won't in the future (all the time our law permits me to do it, which it does). The only people i'm aware of that do are thse numpties who actively go out of their way to make the point and then post videos on YouTube (but there are words that could/should be used for these types of idiots).

There's plenty of info available for those who want to make images outside, i'll follow that info and enjoy myself and I hope the OP does too..

Stay safe. ;)
 
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DemiLion said:
...And yet with seemingly little legal knowledge, you did.
Click to expand...

As I said:

There's plenty of info available for those who want to make images outside, i'll follow that info and enjoy myself and I hope the OP does too.

Stay safe. ;)
 
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realspeed said:
not obvious are Royal parks (crown property)- shopping arcades - airports are all private property so permission may have to be sought first. What can be confusing is outdoor events such as showgrounds or areas of parks for events. These are normally public places but as the area is being used by say a dog show for example they are then private areas. Tthe event organisers have obtained a licence to hold the show so actually in theory they own the ground while the show is in progress. If in doubt say in London around certain areas photography may not be allowed, so always best to ask if in doubt. Areas outside building may also have indications that show the part that is private on the pavement. Banks and government buildings the security people may approach and question.
If I do this type of photography I try and make sure children are not in the scene as this could cause a problem

Just my thoughts others may disagree

Tip
if asked to remove a photo don't argue just delete (not format) it can be recovered later with a photo recovery program. The average person is not aware this can be done. Keeps police -security and others happy
Click to expand...

You are NOT obliged to delete images. I would stand my ground. If they are aggressive, just walk away. They cannot detain you or obstruct your exit, that can amount to an assault.

You can include Railway stations into the list of private property, but they are generally amenable to photography so long as you do not interfere with the operations. Clarification can be had at the main station office. Going onto the running lines/depots is a criminal offence and there will always be a prosecution and a fine of up to £1000 can be imposed plus a criminal record. Tripods are a big no-no. If you are not on the station for to travel or other legitimate reason you can be told to leave, but unlikely unless you are causing a problem.

Outside some large military establishments can have notices prohibiting photography which may be against the Official Secrets Act, even from a public places. These warnings are enforceable in law

Royal Parks have no problem allow photography, but there are byelaws against using tripods.
 
i would not worry too much, it not like your in rural wales in my area where a farmer with a shotgun could come after you on a quad bike should "get off my land"
 
After 55 years of taking pictures for pleasure and profit, my experience is that if you carry a big camera and make a big fuss, people will notice you and some will be aggressive. If you carry a small camera, work quickly and keep moving, no one will notice you or care what you're doing. That's why most of my cameras are small, if not very small. However, I have occassionally used big cameras as well...

Canon Eos 1Ds II with 28-135mm lens and Ixus Digital TZ7 1020222.jpg
 
In many situations it pays to ask permission. You may be expected to sign a form to the effect that you are an amateur and the images are only for personal use which is the case for me. There are some very interesting buildings in Birmingham worth photographing inside. In one of them (The Library) we did not seek permission but coincidently arrived just after a class of University photography students (with permission) so the staff just assumed we were with them. I have heard that the Library has tightened up now. The Grand Central at New St Station is well worth some shots but we did get permission for that and used tripods. Sometimes if you just grab a few shots with a small camera, having planned what you want, you can be in and out before security notice. When I have been stopped by security in a private shopping arcade, I have always been pleasant and relaxed and confessed that I had no idea that it was private and agreeing to leave immediately. If you have planned carefully, you will already have grabbed the key shots you wanted.

Dave
 
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