Quick rant - Secretive people

[Merovingian]

Tell me all this nonsense isn't just about moving the sliders about in Lightroom........:shake:

Guess it beats a load of nonsense about a semipro/pro who's not one!

 

[artona]

I might have read the tread incorrectly Dave but did she not come to judge a comp rather than run a workshop.

If a pro photographer was covering and being paid to shoot a wedding how would he or she feel if the the bride suddenly said while you are here I have lined up a dozen families for some free portrait shots, make sure you include a free print for each of them!!

stew

 

[DiddyDave]

I might have read the tread incorrectly Dave but did she not come to judge a comp rather than run a workshop.

If a pro photographer was covering and being paid to shoot a wedding how would he or she feel if the the bride suddenly said while you are here I have lined up a dozen families for some free portrait shots, make sure you include a free print for each of them!!

stew

I was referring to an earlier encounter with her

And I have no idea what your 2nd para is trying to say :shrug:

DD

 

[AliB]

I have to say that I have come across this quite a bit especially with pros. The reason that some just won't divulge what they have done is that they have developed techniques for PP that they will claim defines their "style" and if they go telling everyone how to do it, they no longer have a unique look that they will say is their USP (unique selling point) as everyone will be able to do it.

So in those circumstances I can see why people chose to keep their own processing to themselves.

DD already knows what I do to mine coz I showed him last week! lol

The real pity though is that the bulk of what goes into a truly good image is actually what you do with the camera. The PP won't make a silk purse out of a pig's ear.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

If a pro photographer was covering and being paid to shoot a wedding how would he or she feel if the the bride suddenly said while you are here I have lined up a dozen families for some free portrait shots, make sure you include a free print for each of them!!

stew

Surely that would only be the same thing if she was a professional photo retoucher and you were asking her to process dozens of images for free, rather than just for a bit of advice?

 

[lukewoodford]

I was referring to an earlier encounter with her

And I have no idea what your 2nd para is trying to say :shrug:

DD

Im confused too. As far as im concerned all forgottom.

Dave sorry for swearing at you. Just understand that I do give advice and I have told people everything about the PP apart from the exact workflow, Half of those Hellingly ones were processed using a preset I had created the other day by having an exmerimenting session and basically moving loads of sliders. And my last wedding that I posted I told two people via PM what I did to achieve the look. Even though I know my style isn't unique ( I dont think anything is), I wouldn't want to give away exactly what I have created for my look. If people really ant to learn my processing as people have said its not hard to mess about for a day and work it out. Right im off for a wedding

 

[DiddyDave]

Im confused too. As far as im concerned all forgottom.

Dave sorry for swearing at you. Just understand that I do give advice and I have told people everything about the PP apart from the exact workflow, Half of those Hellingly ones were processed using a preset I had created the other day by having an exmerimenting session and basically moving loads of sliders. And my last wedding that I posted I told two people via PM what I did to achieve the look. Even though I know my style isn't unique ( I dont think anything is), I wouldn't want to give away exactly what I have created for my look. If people really ant to learn my processing as people have said its not hard to mess about for a day and work it out. Right im off for a wedding

No worries m8 - have a ***-un (that was good btw - as in a good-un)

Mine doesn't start until 1pm today so I'll have to cut the grass first

DD

 

[lukewoodford]

No worries m8 - have a ***-un (that was good btw - as in a good-un)

Mine doesn't start until 1pm today so I'll have to cut the grass first

DD

At least its not your first one since march, feeling a bit rusty. At least I have backup gear now though

 

[Albi]

I love the way people come on here and basically say...

"I want you to pass on your years of business experience & knowledge for free, cheers"

Makes me laugh - thanks

Oh - and I use flash all the time with babies too, it's not a problem

DD

Is this the same DD.

 

[POAH]

because they want to stay ahead of everyone else.

same thing with rig shots, people never wanted to show them unphotoshopped and some people actually got nasty pms when they did reveal lol

if people don't want to share its up to them, telling them to FO if they don't is just as childish IMHO

I hate unnecessarily secretive people!!! :bang:

Recently we've had one of the most secretive people at the camera club - a person who 'wows' you with their images, and when you say...

"Love it, the PP is great - do you mind me asking what you did?" the short answer is

"NO!!!"

Soz - but unless you're selling Actions or training sessions on PP work - WTF is the point of being so secretive???

Many on here will just about tell you everything about anything you ask - we are NOT competitors trying to out-do the other in sales etc. we are fellow photographers trying to improve our photography and image creation

If someone has a great processing technique you like, then ASKING them shouldn't be a crime IMHO - IF you're not trying to sell those techniques, if you are intent on selling them then that's fine obviously - but just remember that just one TP member could buy your DVD (pass it to a mate) and let anyone know of their new Action they've invented and you'd have no case to argue - so why be secretive???

We are NOT going to shoot that same landscape in that same light and process it the same are we; nor are we going to do that with a person shot either - get over it people

Share or FO IMO

I get loads of pms for just about everything I do - and I never say NOT TELLING YOU - am I odd then? I had so many pms about the new/different flooring I use Dellipher posted a thread explaining where & how to buy it FFS

So can I just ask that if you think your images are so amazing in their PP that they are worth protecting by refusing to tell one & all how you did it - DON'T POST THEM

Blood boiling now - so mini rant over

DD

 

[artona]

Ok Let me explain what I was getting at. I get the feeling that this speaker also does workshops. In the instance DD is refering to she was invited along as a judge. Maybe she does not charge for being a judge but even if she does I bet its not as much as she charges for a workshop.

My example of the wedding and the portraits is as most pros know you earn more from portraits, so a photographer is booked to shoot a wedding for say £1500 and then is asked to shoot 12 portrait sittings for free worth maybe £2500. How would the pro photographer feel if the bride started slagging off the photographer if he refused to shoot them.

Pro Photographers work hard to keep ahead of the game, if I invoiced my company for every hour I spent working hard to develop new techniques it would bankrupt it.

On saying that a group of like minded photographers, amateur or pro, like DD and ALiB exchanging ideas is the way forward.

stew

 

[POAH]

I love the way people come on here and basically say...

"I want you to pass on your years of business experience & knowledge for free, cheers"

Makes me laugh - thanks

Oh - and I use flash all the time with babies too, it's not a problem

DD

Is this the same DD.

LMFAO

 

[artona]

Surely that would only be the same thing if she was a professional photo retoucher and you were asking her to process dozens of images for free, rather than just for a bit of advice?

so you go into the retoucher to get some retouched, would you be offended if they declined to teach you how to do it whilst you were there. Remember this lady was there to judge not give a free workshop.

I remember judging a camera club comp 15 years ago and giving a mini workshop on each photo, explaining why it had won / why it hadn't etc etc. There was such silence I wondered whether I had offended. Then they all started talking at once saying how great it was and how they had never seen it done that way before. As far as I was concerned I was there to improve their photography if I could. But I did that because I wanted to not because I was expected to

stew

 

[DiddyDave]

I love the way people come on here and basically say...

"I want you to pass on your years of business experience & knowledge for free, cheers"

Makes me laugh - thanks

Oh - and I use flash all the time with babies too, it's not a problem

DD

Is this the same DD.

I have repeatedly said - I see no issue with being candid where there's some business interest - so no, it's nothing like the same

DD

 

[DiddyDave]

Ok Let me explain what I was getting at. I get the feeling that this speaker also does workshops. In the instance DD is refering to she was invited along as a judge. Maybe she does not charge for being a judge but even if she does I bet its not as much as she charges for a workshop.

My example of the wedding and the portraits is as most pros know you earn more from portraits, so a photographer is booked to shoot a wedding for say £1500 and then is asked to shoot 12 portrait sittings for free worth maybe £2500. How would the pro photographer feel if the bride started slagging off the photographer if he refused to shoot them.

Pro Photographers work hard to keep ahead of the game, if I invoiced my company for every hour I spent working hard to develop new techniques it would bankrupt it.

On saying that a group of like minded photographers, amateur or pro, like DD and ALiB exchanging ideas is the way forward.

stew

Soz Stew - but NO - I wasn't referring to her as a judge & she's not a Pro as far as I know. She was invited to showcase her work and was asked about her technique on a couple where she refused - some of which I'm sure now can be had by simply buying a set of Actions

Had she been selling anything, then fine to withhold business sensitive info - but it was more of a hobbiest to another meeting so I couldn't see the point

DD

 

[Flash In The Pan]

so you go into the retoucher to get some retouched, would you be offended if they declined to teach you how to do it whilst you were there. Remember this lady was there to judge not give a free workshop.

That's not the same thing either.....never mind

 

[Tyke Tiler]

This is a very interesting conversation/debate/scuff

I've been sitting on a metaphorical fence for some time with an idea in doing step by step guides for lighting a shot and then a tutorial screencast for post production.

I really don't know if it would offer anything to anyone, I will face fact, I'm nothing unique, there are plenty of other photog's doing similar stuff to me and many of them far better but I do have 'a' style that I'm happy with and I do get asked enough questions to include an explanation on the good stuff, plus I enjoy writing about things and helping folk out.

But...

I had a chat with a good mate, and he suggested that if I gave away all I know at such an early stage, what would separate me from the rest?
What happens to my unique selling point that Ali B described earlier on in the thread? Would it effect me in a way that could be damaging?

Personally, I feel that it's the future work and the future decisions I make that should theoretically maintain my style and keep me fresh. Teaching shouldn't harm me in any way but what my buddy said got me thinking/worrying.

Look at all the other photog's that teach and host workshops, as many of you know I'm a big McNally fan, his work is very individual and he teaches precisely how to do it all over the world.
Unca Joe is still mighty fresh and still rockin.

I know exactly where folk are coming from when being secretive with post technique, I respect that train of thought in all honesty.

I also believe that folk who sponge of the net and don't give anything back are failures though. Usually bigheads who aren't who they think they are.

It's even funnier when you see folk who won't even tell a shutter speed, aperture or any other camera setting!

Luke helps folk, ask him summin, he'll tell you, if Luke wants to keep anything personal to himself, then fair effin do's.

I'm still on the fence, this discussion has made me think a little harder.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

This is a very interesting conversation/debate/scuff

I've been sitting on a metaphorical fence for some time with an idea in doing step by step guides for lighting a shot and then a tutorial screencast for post production.

I really don't know if it would offer anything to anyone, I will face fact, I'm nothing unique, there are plenty of other photog's doing similar stuff to me and many of them far better but I do have 'a' style that I'm happy with and I do get asked enough questions to include an explanation on the good stuff, plus I enjoy writing about things and helping folk out.

But...

I had a chat with a good mate, and he suggested that if I gave away all I know at such an early stage, what would separate me from the rest?
What happens to my unique selling point that Ali B described earlier on in the thread? Would it effect me in a way that could be damaging?

Personally, I feel that it's the future work and the future decisions I make that should theoretically maintain my style and keep me fresh. Teaching shouldn't harm me in any way but what my buddy said got me thinking/worrying.

Look at all the other photog's that teach and host workshops, as many of you know I'm a big McNally fan, his work is very individual and he teaches precisely how to do it all over the world.
Unca Joe is still mighty fresh and still rockin.

I know exactly where folk are coming from when being secretive with post technique, I respect that train of thought in all honesty.

I also believe that folk who sponge of the net and don't give anything back are failures though. Usually bigheads who aren't who they think they are.

It's even funnier when you see folk who won't even tell a shutter speed, aperture or any other camera setting!

Luke helps folk, ask him summin, he'll tell you, if Luke wants to keep anything personal to himself, then fair effin do's.

I'm still on the fence, this discussion has made me think a little harder.

Right then, I've got a question for you, Tomas.........






























Can I borrow your D3?

 

[dellipher]

Dave's just made me email him one of my secrets

 

[DiddyDave]

Dave's just made me email him one of my secrets

Wasn't a secret you wally

Had you told me it was - I'd have told you to FO then made you send me it

DD

 

[Tyke Tiler]

Right then, I've got a question for you, Tomas.........

Can I borrow your D3?

You can borrow my 3D glasses

 

[swanseamale47]

Maybe a few of you could get the club sec to write to her explaining some of the members were very dissapointed at not being given more details, and invite her back to give a fuller explaination of her methods?.
Chances are shes paranoid you'll all get better shots than her if you know her tricks, and is afraid to give anything away.

 

[dellipher]

Wasn't a secret you wally

Had you told me it was - I'd have told you to FO then made you send me it

DD

you've had to ask for it 4 times

 

[Simmotino]

Personally I don't see why anyone would want to know. Surely the whole reason we do this (whether it be as a hobby, a compulsion, or a business) is because we want to for our own reasons and in our own way?

To have someone give you details of how they do something for you to then be able to mimic it surely eliminates that individuality? If you want to know so that you can do something similar but in your own way, why do you need to ask in the first place?

Admire other people's wrok, sure, but work on your own style and techniques in trying to replicate them rather than banging in the same numbers to get the same result.

You'll learn more and achieve greater IMO.

 

[Marcel]

Show me how to achieve something, and I learn the underlying processes to apply in other areas. I agree to blindly copy someone elses style without any thought or learning is just silly.
However, many people (myself included) learn by replication.

It's fine to not want to teach everyone who comes along how you do everything, step by step. That was the basis of DD's 'Give away everything for free' post quoted above. It was in response to a question which read like "Hi, I have a camera, teach me everything you know so I can make money..........go!". Quite different from "I've done some thinking myself, got most of it worked out, how do you do specific x and y, any tips for z perhaps?"

It's fine to want to keep some special little tweaks to yourself, that maybe took a while to master, but to refuse to share any information just incase someone elses shots look like theirs translates to me as insecurity and lack of belief in their own talent and skill.
Protecting their PP just incase the other person learns how to replicate the 'look' and then does it better.
Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how it reads to me.

Again, that's not directed at anyone inparticular, it's a general observation.

I am talking about within the photography community here, and peers.
Obviously if you're selling a product you don't want to give it away for free.



That said, I've not really noticed much selfishness of that kind on here tbh, and nor would I want to. This place is about sharing information and helping each other.

 

[natjag]

Interesting, Pete Carr, love him or hate him has a tutorial which you can view for nothing still does ok, despite given the raw ingredients of his processing away for others to use. Pete would have even more reason NOT to divulge his methods for free, as he now has a book available on HDR.

Does evenyone elses photos look like Petes - NO - because he still does other adjustments in PS, plus he takes and composes the shot himself, considers the light and so forth.

Perhaps members that don't wish to divulge their Methods (secrets) should just openly say, 'sorry I don't want you to copy me' or similar.

 

[artona]

Soz Stew - but NO - I wasn't referring to her as a judge & she's not a Pro as far as I know. She was invited to showcase her work and was asked about her technique on a couple where she refused - some of which I'm sure now can be had by simply buying a set of Actions

Had she been selling anything, then fine to withhold business sensitive info - but it was more of a hobbiest to another meeting so I couldn't see the point

DD

I got that totally wrong, teaches me not to try to do 10 things all at the same time.

Yep I would have been peeved as well. Its a few years since I went to a camera club and the last time I did there was this plonker at the front who put one photo after another up and all he would say is "I took this one in Derby" "I took this one in Scotland". That was it. I actually did as you asked Dave and asked about technique and he gave me a really odd look and there were even hushed comments made by the audience.

The above was so long ago digital had not been released, maybe I need to visit a club again

stew

 

[Jelster]

Different subject I know, but go down to your nearest lake and ask the guy catching all the fish what he puts in his bait and 99 out of 100 will lie or just plain not tell you......

People like to milk success when they can. However, I'm in the "fortunate" position of knowing the square of jack all about photography, so I don't suffer with the problem

Steve

 

[Shinkansen]

"Love it, the PP is great - do you mind me asking what you did?" the short answer is

"NO!!!"

Surely if somebody is answering "No" to your question as specified, they are in fact opening up for the question to be asked, and hopefully answered :shrug: