- Messages
- 3,883
- Name
- Anna
- Edit My Images
- No
I seriously doubt that the CPS is spending time debating whether to bring charges against someone accused of pinching someone on the bum,in the 70s, or similar.
and help to keep the site free for all
Rape/sexual assault charges
- Thread starter tiler65
- Start date
But we hear/read this all the time - such a person is charged with sexual assault in a nightclub -'he slapped my arse as I was going past' (usually footballers but those are the ones we only find out about)
Is there a definition of what sexual assault is?
Nobody has answered my q about the accused, if found not guilty, being able to sue for ....well just about anything relating to their character etc.
- Messages
- 3,883
- Name
- Anna
- Edit My Images
- No
As I said, almost all of these high profile cases are relating to multiple allegations of assault, NOT one offs and maybe I don't read the papers enough (or indeed at all) but I have never seen someone actually charged with assault on the basis you state above.
Lord McAlpine is indeed bringing suits, but then he was named for something he didn't do, for which there was no evidence against him at all. He certainly hasn't been questioned and charged, there was a lot if idle speculation and a case of mistaken identity.
- Messages
- 10,522
- Name
- Suz
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Martyn D said:
He has. Some settled including the bbc. It was a relative that's dead although the similarity between them was enough to cause reasonable confusion.
Oddly he's never sued the original pamphlet producers which have all the information about the case. But conveniently some original evidence disappeared including photos of actual abuse which could have settled things one way or another. Disappeared in some legal dispute over unpaid rent.
Next up is the dodgy guest house and a host of MPs and the odd pop star.
- Messages
- 12,760
- Name
- Mark
- Edit My Images
- No
tiler65 said:
There'd be absolutely nothing that accucsed could do if found 'Not Guilty', because that's all the verdict means. It does not mean innocent.
Likewise you can't bring a case of defamation for an allegation made to the police. However if the allegation is proved to be false (and/or malicious), the accuser could be done for wasting police time or, if it goes to trial, perjury.
- Messages
- 2,719
- Name
- Bernie
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Demi
If a person is accused of any offence, and charged that is then a matter of public record.
An acquittal means you are innocent in law. End of story, except in Scotland where the verdict of not proven exists.
The principle in the rest of the UK is you are innocent until proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. If you are acquitted then you have not been and issuing proceedings against your accuser is common place. As is success in those proceedings.
The chances of them winning at Civil Court is proportionately higher due to a different standard of proof being required.
Tom
In answer to your original point, conviction on the basis of one person's word against another is common place. It's for a District Judge or Jury to make the decision if the evidence of one side or the other is compelling to them having heard all of it.
In the cases you started this thread over, at least one of the attacks, if it was reported at the time it's unlikely there is any DNA evidence now. Samples were not held for long periods of time, as it simply wasn't practical. In any case the person accused, was well known and would have at least been nicked and interviewed at the time.
DNA wasn't in use in the mid 70's, and I don't think it could be broken down at all into matchable samples then. But blood was, and seamen gives you blood type.
So in a nutshell, I doubt if it was reported then, and I doubt there is any physical evidence.
But thats not the entire story, there are other things that can be used in evidence, there's witness evidence, of circumstances if not act. Evidence of early complaint to friends/family. Both of these are seen as supportive of a complaint of rape, even if it is not made to police.
Until it comes to trial, we wont know what evidence there is supporting the claims. But as already been said, the CPS are shall we say very risk adverse, and aren't known for taking anything where the chances are slim to court, unless it's a Policeman, or there's a current fad on. At the moment there's one on celebrities, so that may have swayed them to take things to trial which normally wouldn't see the light of day.
From the other side of it, rape is a very easy allegation to make, and very difficult for a defendant to disprove, especially if sex has taken place, and the issue is consent or lack thereof. It means that there are miscarriages of justice on both sides. But what do you do to improve matters? It's an imperfect system, and always will be when humans are involved, who are not always honest.
If a person is accused of any offence, and charged that is then a matter of public record.
An acquittal means you are innocent in law. End of story, except in Scotland where the verdict of not proven exists.
The principle in the rest of the UK is you are innocent until proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. If you are acquitted then you have not been and issuing proceedings against your accuser is common place. As is success in those proceedings.
The chances of them winning at Civil Court is proportionately higher due to a different standard of proof being required.
Tom
In answer to your original point, conviction on the basis of one person's word against another is common place. It's for a District Judge or Jury to make the decision if the evidence of one side or the other is compelling to them having heard all of it.
In the cases you started this thread over, at least one of the attacks, if it was reported at the time it's unlikely there is any DNA evidence now. Samples were not held for long periods of time, as it simply wasn't practical. In any case the person accused, was well known and would have at least been nicked and interviewed at the time.
DNA wasn't in use in the mid 70's, and I don't think it could be broken down at all into matchable samples then. But blood was, and seamen gives you blood type.
So in a nutshell, I doubt if it was reported then, and I doubt there is any physical evidence.
But thats not the entire story, there are other things that can be used in evidence, there's witness evidence, of circumstances if not act. Evidence of early complaint to friends/family. Both of these are seen as supportive of a complaint of rape, even if it is not made to police.
Until it comes to trial, we wont know what evidence there is supporting the claims. But as already been said, the CPS are shall we say very risk adverse, and aren't known for taking anything where the chances are slim to court, unless it's a Policeman, or there's a current fad on. At the moment there's one on celebrities, so that may have swayed them to take things to trial which normally wouldn't see the light of day.
From the other side of it, rape is a very easy allegation to make, and very difficult for a defendant to disprove, especially if sex has taken place, and the issue is consent or lack thereof. It means that there are miscarriages of justice on both sides. But what do you do to improve matters? It's an imperfect system, and always will be when humans are involved, who are not always honest.
- Messages
- 12,302
- Name
- Garry Edwards
- Edit My Images
- No
As above, more or less.
I was in a magistrates Court recently, and whilst waiting for a case to come up, there was a remand hearing on an attempted rape case.
According to the CPS solicitor, they had been a couple but had split up. Then he called round to see her, they started kissing and ended up in bed. She said that she suggested that they went to bed for a cuddle, they both got undressed. Then he got a bit carried away, she said no and ended up calling the police. He tried to hit a police officer and was promptly arrested.
Whilst on bail he assaulted another woman and has spent the last 5 months in custody. He also has a history of assaulting women. He was refused bail and sent back to gaol.
Now, from what I heard, he is not a nice man and he is far too handy with his fists. But is he really guilty of attempted rape? What kind of woman is stupid enough to take all her clothes off and go to bed with a man who she knows is sexually violent and expect to only get a cuddle? Based on what I heard that day, I don't think I would believe a word that either of them said.
And yet, I'm sure that both of them will believe every word that they say in Court...
With the obvious exception of stranger rape and rape against children, I think that there can sometimes be grey areas, especially around the issue of assumed consent.
I was in a magistrates Court recently, and whilst waiting for a case to come up, there was a remand hearing on an attempted rape case.
According to the CPS solicitor, they had been a couple but had split up. Then he called round to see her, they started kissing and ended up in bed. She said that she suggested that they went to bed for a cuddle, they both got undressed. Then he got a bit carried away, she said no and ended up calling the police. He tried to hit a police officer and was promptly arrested.
Whilst on bail he assaulted another woman and has spent the last 5 months in custody. He also has a history of assaulting women. He was refused bail and sent back to gaol.
Now, from what I heard, he is not a nice man and he is far too handy with his fists. But is he really guilty of attempted rape? What kind of woman is stupid enough to take all her clothes off and go to bed with a man who she knows is sexually violent and expect to only get a cuddle? Based on what I heard that day, I don't think I would believe a word that either of them said.
And yet, I'm sure that both of them will believe every word that they say in Court...
With the obvious exception of stranger rape and rape against children, I think that there can sometimes be grey areas, especially around the issue of assumed consent.
CT
TPer Emeritus
- Messages
- 26,617
- Edit My Images
- Yes
If the case was reported at the time but not proceeded with, then it's possible that forensic samples were taken but if it wasn't reported then we can rule out forensic evidence completely.
If samples were taken they still wouldn't be actually conclusive unless they lifted fingerprints. Not all people secrete their blood group into bodily substances such as sperm, but in the case of secreters it only provides a blood group which is not conclusive.( Nowadays of course it could provide conclusive DNA but this procedure wasn't available in the 70s). If it's a rare blood group, it can be more compelling evidence of course, but still not conclusive, although it's another strong indication if coupled with other corroborative evidence.
For someone to actually be charged with a rape this old there has to be some corroborative evidence apart from the complainatn's statement. I simply cannot see CPS proceeding with it otherwise. It could be in the form of witnesses to the rape itself ( unlikely but possible) or simply someone providing evidence of proceedings and events leading up to the alleged offence, which supports the complainant's account and therefore adds credibility to it. That's assuming of course that there is no forensic evidence taken at the time.
Having dealt with a few rape cases including a couple of really revolting gang rapes I might add that it's one of the most distressing things to deal with let alone be a victim of. I've also lost count of the number of times women and young girls have complained of rape and subsequently it's turned out to be fear of an unwanted pregnancy, simply being late home, and sometimes sheer malevolence, so we're right to be concerned about cases like this one. We can only hope that in the end justice is done.
If samples were taken they still wouldn't be actually conclusive unless they lifted fingerprints. Not all people secrete their blood group into bodily substances such as sperm, but in the case of secreters it only provides a blood group which is not conclusive.( Nowadays of course it could provide conclusive DNA but this procedure wasn't available in the 70s). If it's a rare blood group, it can be more compelling evidence of course, but still not conclusive, although it's another strong indication if coupled with other corroborative evidence.
For someone to actually be charged with a rape this old there has to be some corroborative evidence apart from the complainatn's statement. I simply cannot see CPS proceeding with it otherwise. It could be in the form of witnesses to the rape itself ( unlikely but possible) or simply someone providing evidence of proceedings and events leading up to the alleged offence, which supports the complainant's account and therefore adds credibility to it. That's assuming of course that there is no forensic evidence taken at the time.
Having dealt with a few rape cases including a couple of really revolting gang rapes I might add that it's one of the most distressing things to deal with let alone be a victim of. I've also lost count of the number of times women and young girls have complained of rape and subsequently it's turned out to be fear of an unwanted pregnancy, simply being late home, and sometimes sheer malevolence, so we're right to be concerned about cases like this one. We can only hope that in the end justice is done.
- Messages
- 12,302
- Name
- Garry Edwards
- Edit My Images
- No
I remember a case, which allegedly happened in the park opposite my studio.
When I went over there with my dog there seemed to be half the West Yorkshire force there, spread out in a line searching.
Later, the police knocked on my door because I have CCTV. It seems that a 14 year old girl had claimed that 3 asian lads had gang raped her.
Hours of trawling my CCTV proved otherwise, and it turned out that she had met a boy over there, had consensual sex and then made up a story. It happens, often.
CT
TPer Emeritus
- Messages
- 26,617
- Edit My Images
- Yes
The other thing of course is that it's pretty much standard form for men accused of rape to claim it was consentual sex which puts any forensic evidence straight out of the window. They'll often deny any sex took place at all, but usually once we started talking about taking samples from them, it would be a quick break to consult with their brief, followed by " Sorry to have messed you about - we did have sex but she was gagging for it"
Yeah right. The problem is of course it brings it all down to one word against another in most cases.
Yeah right. The problem is of course it brings it all down to one word against another in most cases.
- Messages
- 3,093
- Name
- Russ
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Slightly off topic.....
There was a story in our local rag about a young woman being raped in the town centre early hours one Friday morning, said she was found in a distressed state with "injuries".
It turns out she fabricated the rape claim to try and cover up the fact she'd attacked another woman earlier that evening.
Now the area in which she was found is a fairly popular walk through, if some genuine guy had found her and tried to assist I would lay money on the fact he'd become the prime suspect, have his name plastered all over the papers and be labled a rapist.
Whilst I'm all for "real" rapists getting what they deserve, I think there needs to be a little more balance and sensitivty when these accusations are made.
In a completely unrelated instance, whilst on honeymoon last year, the missus got completely wasted one night. The next morning she vaguely remembers leaving the bar but that was it. Technically speaking she did not consent to what happened when we got back to our room..... what does that make me?
As you said earlier Garry..... there is a lot of grey here.
CT
TPer Emeritus
- Messages
- 26,617
- Edit My Images
- Yes
An opportunist?
Certainly not rape anyway as rape means sex with a woman against her will and has to be achieved by either force, fear or fraud, none of which apply in your case so I think you'll be OK.
- Messages
- 3,093
- Name
- Russ
- Edit My Images
- Yes
An opportunist?
Certainly not rape anyway as rape means sex with a woman against her will and has to be achieved by either force, fear or fraud, none of which apply in your case so I think you'll be OK.
She certainly didn't complain (in fact she insitgated it) but let's change the scenarro a little........
I meet a girl in a bar, we drink and she gets very drunk, I know she's drunk but not how drunk.
The same thing happens and she doesn't remember leaving the bar. If she made an allegation against me how could I ever prove she didn't say no?
CT
TPer Emeritus
- Messages
- 26,617
- Edit My Images
- Yes
LOL. I can just see the ears perking up out there and the bums twitching! 
There is actually a separate offence of administering drugs to facilitate intercourse which doesn't actually need rape to be proven if sex takes place as a result. As far as I'm aware intoxicating drink has never been held to be a drug within the meaning of the legislation.
In practice of course if she admits to being smashed on booze she's a discredited witness from the word go and little reliability will be placed on anything she says.
This must happen every Saturday night X about 10,000. Comes down to how much of a gent you are in that situation.
There is actually a separate offence of administering drugs to facilitate intercourse which doesn't actually need rape to be proven if sex takes place as a result. As far as I'm aware intoxicating drink has never been held to be a drug within the meaning of the legislation.
In practice of course if she admits to being smashed on booze she's a discredited witness from the word go and little reliability will be placed on anything she says.
This must happen every Saturday night X about 10,000. Comes down to how much of a gent you are in that situation.
CT
TPer Emeritus
- Messages
- 26,617
- Edit My Images
- Yes
It's all about witness credibility when they get in the box. If the witness was drunk no guy is going down the stairs on the strength of their highly dubious recollection of events.
The whole thing is a huge ordeal even for a genuine rape victim with the medical examination and samples being taken. Finally when the case does get to court the defence will have raked up anything they can find in her background to discredit her, so women need a lot of courage and resolve to go the distance, and I've no doubt at all that many genuine rapes aren't dealt with because the victim would rather not face that ordeal.
The whole thing is a huge ordeal even for a genuine rape victim with the medical examination and samples being taken. Finally when the case does get to court the defence will have raked up anything they can find in her background to discredit her, so women need a lot of courage and resolve to go the distance, and I've no doubt at all that many genuine rapes aren't dealt with because the victim would rather not face that ordeal.
- Messages
- 3,093
- Name
- Russ
- Edit My Images
- Yes
- Messages
- 12,302
- Name
- Garry Edwards
- Edit My Images
- No
Medical examination yes, obviously that can be a traumatic experience for a victim.
But I thought that things had improved in the XE dept.,, are Counsel still allowed to bring up previous sexual history etc? If so, then I don't see any great relevance, because no woman should have to suffer rape regardless of what she may have done in the past.
But I thought that things had improved in the XE dept.,, are Counsel still allowed to bring up previous sexual history etc? If so, then I don't see any great relevance, because no woman should have to suffer rape regardless of what she may have done in the past.
CT
TPer Emeritus
- Messages
- 26,617
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Courts are more sympathetic these days Garry for sure, but the bottom line is some guy stands to draw some hard time so the defence will do everything they can to get him off and if that means showing the complainant to have a promiscuous past or whatever, they'll be seeking to bring the evidence of it.
It's up to the trial judge of course what he deems relevant but courts (quite rightly) bend over backwards to be fair to defendants and being seen to be fair.
It's up to the trial judge of course what he deems relevant but courts (quite rightly) bend over backwards to be fair to defendants and being seen to be fair.
CT
TPer Emeritus
- Messages
- 26,617
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Bit of grey area though which it's always going to be where prior social drinking is concerned,...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1546789/Drunk-women-can-consent-to-sex-judges-rule.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1546789/Drunk-women-can-consent-to-sex-judges-rule.html
- Messages
- 3,093
- Name
- Russ
- Edit My Images
- Yes
And that's where the problem sits..... if both parties are under the influence it's likely one won't know how under the influence the other is.
In the example of my wife on honeymoon, I knew she'd had a few but she was coherent and still standing, at one point I was telling her to go to sleep as I was tired and very drunk myself but she wasn't taking no for an answer.
- Messages
- 2,719
- Name
- Bernie
- Edit My Images
- Yes
The drink, consent and one word against the other is why the conviction rate isn't as high as some would like it to be.
The trouble is that you really have to be sure to convict, and with rape or any sexual offence, you really are ending most peoples normal lives. Probably more than any other offence.
I can see why a jury would be reluctant to convict, why the CPS are often reluctant to charge, and why the feminist lobby are up in arms.
The trouble is that you really have to be sure to convict, and with rape or any sexual offence, you really are ending most peoples normal lives. Probably more than any other offence.
I can see why a jury would be reluctant to convict, why the CPS are often reluctant to charge, and why the feminist lobby are up in arms.
- Messages
- 11,505
- Name
- Jim
- Edit My Images
- Yes
- Messages
- 29,465
- Name
- Bat-Frog
- Edit My Images
- No
Thanks for the input from the experts but I would like to ask a female (hopefully Ruth) would she consider being slapped on the arse* a sexual assault, as we hear about in the news...ie footballers - nightclubs - drinks - flirting and then one leads to another with the resulting slap. Are buttocks a sexual area according to law?
*I could use pat on the bottom even though they could mean the same thing.
*I could use pat on the bottom even though they could mean the same thing.
magicaxeman
An Idiot
- Messages
- 3,095
- Edit My Images
- No
Sometimes all it needs is a public outcry or a push from the political masters above.
The other thing that needs bearing in mind is that in some of these cases the offences they were charged with weren't even an offence at the time they were committed, it was a very different era in the 60's & 70's, groping went on all the time and was done by both sexes
- Messages
- 3,883
- Name
- Anna
- Edit My Images
- No
can you retrospectively be charged with an offence, if it was not illegal at the time? is that even possible?
Have checked, and no, if it wasn't an offence at the time, you cannot be charged if it later becomes an offence.
Last edited:
Good point, sorry for leaving you off my list of potential 'slapped arse victims' who could give a view on whether they would consider it sexual.
- Messages
- 3,883
- Name
- Anna
- Edit My Images
- No
I would probably have to go with yes. In my first job, when I was 17, a gazillion and one years ago, there was a bloke who was always slapping my arse on the way past. He also made lewd comments and once tried to pin me against a photocopier.
I probably now associate that kind of behaviour with any arse-slapper. Probably not as sexual as, ooh, grabbing my chest (which unbelievably has happened a few times, but this is of course my fault for it it being 1. there and 2. large), but sexual none the less.
On the plus side I am now 39 and everythings gone south, so unless someone's aiming for the knee area for either, I'm unlikely to be bothered
SarahLee
TPer Emerita
- Messages
- 13,060
- Name
- Sarah
- Edit My Images
- No
Anna, there was me thinking that type of behaviour just didn't happen any more - perhaps it's just a case that at 37 my arse isn't as slappable as at 20
Seriously though, I don't know that I'd necessarily say that it was "sexual".
Certainly in the workplace way back when it could equally be done as a patronising and dismissive "move along now little lady" type gesture.
Neither is acceptable or appropriate behaviour but even by today's standards I personally wouldn't classify either as an "assault" or consider it something worthy of reporting.
big soft moose
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy...
- Messages
- 20,964
- Name
- Pete
- Edit My Images
- Yes
this thread needs more pictures
I would perhaps mention that in my last place of employment i was touched up by a female colleague in what could be considered a sexually agressive way
(ie she pinched my arse and said " you've got such a cute bum" )
I wouldnt charecterise that as an assault although it could be considered sexual harrasment (and probably would be if the genders were reversed).
SarahLee
TPer Emerita
- Messages
- 13,060
- Name
- Sarah
- Edit My Images
- No
this thread needs more pictures
Nah.
It would be followed with "and you've got such a cute face" . . . SMAAAACK !!!
- Messages
- 3,883
- Name
- Anna
- Edit My Images
- No
this thread needs more pictures
I would perhaps mention that in my last place of employment i was touched up by a female colleague in what could be considered a sexually agressive way
(ie she pinched my arse and said " you've got such a cute bum" )
I wouldnt charecterise that as an assault although it could be considered sexual harrasment (and probably would be if the genders were reversed).
it is nothing to do with reversing genders, sexual harassment is not gender specific
big soft moose
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy...
- Messages
- 20,964
- Name
- Pete
- Edit My Images
- Yes
It would be followed with "and you've got such a cute face" . . . SMAAAACK !!!
lol - i went for " yes, i know, my wife tells me regularly"
Last edited:
big soft moose
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy...
- Messages
- 20,964
- Name
- Pete
- Edit My Images
- Yes
no - but can you really see a 6ft 4 , 15 stone bloke feeling sexually threatened by a 5ft nothing, size 8 girl pinching his bum and making a slightly inappropriate remark - reverse the roles and its easy to see how the girl could feel intimidated/threatened
- Messages
- 15,804
- Name
- Neil
- Edit My Images
- Yes
There are plenty of shy men who would probably fit that description and would "die" if a woman even looked at them let alone pinched his bum or made a remark.
We had a woman at work who always used to ask one man in particular, to show her his nipples, he'd scuttle off embarrased with everyone else laughing at him.
- Messages
- 3,883
- Name
- Anna
- Edit My Images
- No
CT
TPer Emeritus
- Messages
- 26,617
- Edit My Images
- Yes
The offence used to be 'indecent assault' which was simply defined as an assault accompanied by circumstances of indecency
Due to the fact that an indecent assault wasn't necessarily a sexual one, a new offence was created around 2003 I think of 'sexual assault'. I'm not absolutely sure if one replaces the other completely now or whether they're both still usable - I don't keep up with this stuff like I used to.
Anyway, grabbing, patting pinching a woman's arse can most definitely be construed as sexual assault if it's deliberate. Women don't have to put up with it and shouldn't - end of. Men who take advantage in this way are pathetic immature prats IMHO. I've had some very close working relationships with women with the inevitable bit of kidding and flirting but if you really feel that way about a woman there are other ways to tell her without grabbing handfuls of her anatomy.
If on the other hand the attention is welcome, then please disregard the foregoing.
Due to the fact that an indecent assault wasn't necessarily a sexual one, a new offence was created around 2003 I think of 'sexual assault'. I'm not absolutely sure if one replaces the other completely now or whether they're both still usable - I don't keep up with this stuff like I used to.
Anyway, grabbing, patting pinching a woman's arse can most definitely be construed as sexual assault if it's deliberate. Women don't have to put up with it and shouldn't - end of. Men who take advantage in this way are pathetic immature prats IMHO. I've had some very close working relationships with women with the inevitable bit of kidding and flirting but if you really feel that way about a woman there are other ways to tell her without grabbing handfuls of her anatomy.
If on the other hand the attention is welcome, then please disregard the foregoing.
Last edited: