Raw, Jpeg or both.

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Good lord no. Does anyone think that being a pro means you don't and can't make mistakes? Seriously? That we're infallible and get everythint right, first time, every time?

There are 2 things here though:

1) The idea that you're using raw as a safety net. That's not the case at all. I'm simply choosing to not throw away data at the point of capture. If I want to really work a file (and because of any mistakes) then raw gives me more headroom to do that.

2) The idea that pros don't make mistakes, and that shooting JPG is somehow purer. It's rubbish. It's a camera choice like any other. I'm after emotional moments. Choosing raw allows me to concentrate on that, and not worrying about my white balance (for example).

Do I make mistakes. Yep.

I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed.

Michael Jordan

My best advice for anyone starting out. Learn how to fail. And then don't make the same mistake again. Just a different one instead.
 
Would be nice if you read my post properly instead of hammering your keys in response (going by the time difference) ;)
 
gman said:
Would be nice if you read my post properly instead of hammering your keys in response (going by the time difference) ;)
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You said:
Get it right in the first place and you shouldn't need to worry about this.....
but then isn't the whole point of being a pro is that you don't make mistakes?


Nope. It's accepting that you will and then not repeating them.

I'm not saying anyone is infallible but for speed of workflow vs mistakes made, I would have thought a pro would avoid RAW and go JPEG.

So at least one pro is saying that's not the case (and I think you'd be surprised at how fast a well refined raw workflow can be)....

Not sure how that is 'not reading your post' and 'hammering the keys'.
 
Your first line. I never said people were infallible yet you are responding as if I did. The speed of the response...have you been sitting watching.....waiting? :suspect:

You also mentioned: "It's also about sometimes crucial shadow detail and highlight recovery". Yet, shooting RAW didn't help you with the blown sky in your 4th photo down on your website :naughty:

It's interesting to see what parts of my comments you latch onto. I agree that RAW can provide more flexibility with editing if you have the time but I can also see the argument with the benefits for shooting in JPEG. You only appear to see one side which I find a little obtuse, I prefer to keep an open mind :)

I get the feeling you've got a lot more time to argue this than me on something that's not really worth it and it's probably best to agree to disagree. I like shooting RAW also but I still feel a good pro should be able to get it right in camera. :D
 
To do a basic PP on a RAW file in LR for me can be as little as 20 seconds - but being able to tweak WB is great as the camera doesnt always get it right. Other times I will want to spend more time, looking at different processes. RAW gives me that option.

but I still feel a good pro should be able to get it right in camera
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Yes, to a degree, but using A or S setting is not always infallible, and using M can be a little trial and error. Of course, I aim to get things right in camera, but even if you get it right 80% of the time, thats still 2 out of 10 shots you may need to work harder on.
 
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gman said:
Your first line. I never said people were infallible yet you are responding as if I did. The speed of the response...have you been sitting watching.....waiting? :suspect:
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Or I was simply online. Which do you think?

gman said:
You also mentioned: "It's also about sometimes crucial shadow detail and highlight recovery". Yet, shooting RAW didn't help you with the blown sky in your 4th photo down on your website :naughty:
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Where to start with this. Aside from the unsolicited critique, which is seriously poor form on your part, you are aware of the dynamic range limitations inherent with digital sensors aren’t you. So with that in mind, and seeing as you want to go there, do you think I was exposing for the couple and foliage, or the sky?

I'm pretty gobsmacked that, for something 'that's not worth debating', you've actually gone to my site and found a blown sky. Here's some news. Spend longer there and you'll find plenty of blown highlights, there's usually a reason why. I'm not a technical photographer, I'm an emotional one. Yet those blown highlights don't seem to be an impediment to success.

gman said:
It's interesting to see what parts of my comments you latch onto. I agree that RAW can provide more flexibility with editing if you have the time but I can also see the argument with the benefits for shooting in JPEG. You only appear to see one side which I find a little obtuse, I prefer to keep an open mind :)
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Really? You’re lumping ‘pros’ into one category. Shooting sports where you’re wiring images back to a picture desk? JPG all the way. Shooting fashion for a magazine with extensive retouching? Raw. As with most aspects of photography it’s rarely black and white.

I’ve not stated that JPG doesn’t have its place, because it does. What I do take issue with is the idea that being a pro means you never make mistakes, or that shooting JPG is more purist because you ‘get it right in camera’. Where does shooting raw mean that you don’t get it right in camera? It doesn’t. As I’ve said, and you neatly ignored, it’s a choice made for lots of different reasons. You’re picking one to support your position.

gman said:
I get the feeling you've got a lot more time to argue this than me on something that's not really worth it and it's probably best to agree to disagree. I like shooting RAW also but I still feel a good pro should be able to get it right in camera. :D
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And we often do. Sometimes we don’t. Hardly news really. Separate the file format chosen from the ability of the photographer. They’re rarely linked.
 
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Mmmm...nah, I really can't be bothered anymore. Anyway, saw you coming a mile off. Let's just leave it as it is. :)
 
Brilliant. I respond with plenty of valid points and we see the Internet equivalent of taking your ball in because gman doesn't like the game any more.

This is the business forum, no?

It needs to grow up and ask itself whether it wants anyone who actually does this as a business to post honest replies. Or does it just want cuddles all round?
 
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Let's bring this back with a bump to reality...... well, relative to throwing away data at least!

jpg = 8 bit
RAW = 12 or 14 bit (Nikon at least - can't quote for Canon or others)

Let me see - looks like at least 33% is dumped from within the camera's processing engine to start with.

Now, what were we saying about highlight/shadow detail?
 
RAW. For most types of photography. Why would you throw away 4-6 bits of data and further arbitrary bits using JPEG? That'd be kinda like playing a SACD in a £5,000 player and listen using Apple iPod headphones.

You've invested all this money in high quality lenses and bodies. Doesn't it make sense to store the images in the highest quality format possible?
 
Radiohead said:
Brilliant. I respond with plenty of valid points and we see the Internet equivalent of taking your ball in because gman doesn't like the game any more.

This is the business forum, no?

It needs to grow up and ask itself whether it wants anyone who actually does this as a business to post honest replies. Or does it just want cuddles all round?
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:dummy::dummy::dummy::dummy::dummy::dummy::dummy:

Seriously, chill out. I'm just playing some light-hearted devil's advocate to see things from all sides. As said, I could see this coming from you which is why I wanted to call it quits ;)
 
Shoot RAW + JPG on my D700 and 99.9% of the time use the JPG for whatever I need done - bar printing out to B0+ then I'll use the raw.

Having the RAW as a fall back or when I dont quite hit the mark exposure wise is a great backup I think too many people rely on it too much.

Try to do as much in camera as possible is my motto, saves time and hassle and let your creativity and talent loose on the job instead of trying to tweak the *******s off generic shots in post.
 
chrisgeary said:
RAW. For most types of photography. Why would you throw away 4-6 bits of data and further arbitrary bits using JPEG? That'd be kinda like playing a SACD in a £5,000 player and listen using Apple iPod headphones.

You've invested all this money in high quality lenses and bodies. Doesn't it make sense to store the images in the highest quality format possible?
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Or to make it relevant, using a D700 with the £100 70-300 non VR lens!
 
I'm sick of this stupid argument because there isn't a right answer. Use what you're happy with, end of.

RAW shooters, stop trying to convince jpeg users. Jpeg users, stop trying to convince the RAW shooters, neither will win and you'll still both be wrong anyway.
 
gman said:
:dummy::dummy::dummy::dummy::dummy::dummy::dummy:

Seriously, chill out. I'm just playing some light-hearted devil's advocate to see things from all sides. As said, I could see this coming from you which is why I wanted to call it quits ;)
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:bang:

It's the business forum. People talk about business in here. Use the PP forum if you want that sort of thing.

It's nothing to do with anything 'coming from me'. You raised a load of points and you should have expected responses to all of them, not just the ones you wanted.

Otherwise that is just trolling.
 
oh, and I'm moving it as it's not technically business, it's arguably an image quality question
 
dod said:
I'm sick of this stupid argument because there isn't a right answer. Use what you're happy with, end of.

RAW shooters, stop trying to convince jpeg users. Jpeg users, stop trying to convince the RAW shooters, neither will win and you'll still both be wrong anyway.
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Just like old times Dod -eh? Never goes away does it? ;-)
 
Radiohead said:
Exactly.
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lol, you are quite amusing, in a child having a tantrum kind of way :p


dod said:
I'm sick of this stupid argument because there isn't a right answer. Use what you're happy with, end of.

RAW shooters, stop trying to convince jpeg users. Jpeg users, stop trying to convince the RAW shooters, neither will win and you'll still both be wrong anyway.
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I reckon this is the best post of the lot! I'll go with this and be happy :thumbs:
 
gman said:
lol, you are quite amusing, in a child having a tantrum kind of way :p
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Brilliant.

Well done Graham.

I've tried to add some value to the forums here, especially on the wedding/business side but it's become obvious I'm wasting my time.

So well done, because I won't be bothering any more.
 
:(
 
gman said:
lol, you are quite amusing, in a child having a tantrum kind of way :p
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gman, any more posts like this and you might have trouble logging in.

This sort of behaviour will not be tolerated. Final warning.
 
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