Reclaiming VAT

[admirable]

I'm with Graham on this too.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

If you were VAT registered you'd probably find that buying from a UK company works out cheaper!

Not if their price genuinely does include VAT

 

[DemiLion]

Not if their price genuinely does include VAT

Well, erm yes, OK- you got me there!

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Well, erm yes, OK- you got me there!

Or not

 

[domino1999]

Just wondering what the position is for VAT-registered customers, do you provide a VAT invoice so that the tax can be reclaimed?

Just read their FAQ:

7. Are you able to issue a VAT invoice?

Please note we don't provide this service currently.

Meaning your initial question has been answered...

Where was it answered? I haven't seen a post from Panamoz...

Looks like it was answered to me, maybe not in a direct post in this thread by Panamoz, but it's in their FAQ on the website which srichards has already pointed out :shrug:

I really don't know what more you expect? Also in their FAQ it says they pay all duties/taxes/VAT, so there is nothing else for the customer to pay other than the price quoted - I have no reason to doubt this statement, but then I'm not interested in reclaiming the VAT back.

I still suggest you email them with your questions. If you still don't get any answers that you're happy with, then presumably you'll opt not to buy from them and source whatever it is you're after from another supplier

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Looks like it was answered to me, maybe not in a direct post in this thread by Panamoz, but it's in their FAQ on the website which srichards has already pointed out :shrug:

I really don't know what more you expect? Also in their FAQ it says they pay all duties/taxes/VAT, so there is nothing else for the customer to pay other than the price quoted - I have no reason to doubt this statement, but then I'm not interested in reclaiming the VAT back.

I still suggest you email them with your questions. If you still don't get any answers that you're happy with, then presumably you'll opt not to buy from them and source whatever it is you're after from another supplier

It's a logical suggestion, however I suspect they would simply ignore the email The whole point of this forum is for them to be able to interact with (potential) customers, so answering it here is actually in their best interest, as doing so would remove the need to constantly answer emails asking the same thing

If Panamoz are legitimately "covering" the VAT then it must be reclaimable, as they have to be VAT registered in the UK due to the volume of goods they are importing to the UK.

As I said in a previous post I'd like clarification as to whether they do, as you claim "pay all duties/taxes/VAT, so there is nothing else for the customer to pay", which is not what it actually says on their website, or whether they just send the goods over and pay the tax if the shipment gets stopped by customs.

I would have thought clarification of this point would be important to anyone dealing with the company and,as a potential customer I'd like it, in writing, from Panamoz that the VAT and duty is paid and if that is the case why it cannot be reclaimed, as legally I can't see any way that they can collect VAT but not be in the position to allow the purchaser to reclaim it...

 

[Rebel t3i]

there is no import duty on cameras imported from Hong Kong into the uk only a vat liability
Graham

 

[Flash In The Pan]

there is no import duty on cameras imported from Hong Kong into the uk only a vat liability
Graham

I'm well aware of that, there is import duty on lenses though. What's your point?

As someone who has bought goods from Panamoz does the paperwork you received indicate that the duty has been paid? Why not, as suggested earlier, post a scan of it or the customs declaration,that would clear the matter up

 

[domino1999]

As I said in a previous post I'd like clarification as to whether they do, as you claim "pay all duties/taxes/VAT, so there is nothing else for the customer to pay", which is not what it actually says on their website, or whether they just send the goods over and pay the tax if the shipment gets stopped by customs.

I don't want to split hairs with you Graham, but I didn't actually "quote" what their FAQ says word for word and it was my personal interpretation, not my claim. The FAQ actually reads as:-

"3. Will I have to pay Import taxes?

No, all import taxes/duties/VAT are covered by us. We are responsible for all additional tax charges. The price you see when you place an order with us, is all you have to pay. The price displayed for items sold by Panamoz Electronics are inclusive. You will be able to see your final price before you confirm your order, when you have completed your order information (including your delivery address)."

Nevertheless, I also doubt you'll get an answer, other than what's been published in their FAQ and given the fact they are closed until 4th October.

By the way, have you asked the same question to DigitalRev, OneStopDigital and HDEW? If so, what were their answers?

 

[Rebel t3i]

I'm well aware of that, there is import duty on lenses though. What's your point?

It seems you already know all the answers so why are you asking all these questions

 

[domino1999]

It seems you already know all the answers so why are you asking all these questions

Indeed.

 

[B1ts]

Regardless of the wording they are still liable to collect and pay UK VAT, see the quote in my previous post.

Is your meant to imply that it's ok as long as you don't get caught?

Nope meant to imply I am playing devils advocate as I do understand your general point/complaint. Just that putting words in their mouths doesnt help with making it.
Is your question meant to imply personal opinion is equal to fact? (ie if my opinion were as you wrongly assumed it wouldnt change the wording they obviously carefully chose to use).

Wont bother with a smily so you know I am not looking to argue as that seems to encourage it for some reason......

 

[B1ts]

That's still illegal....

So you are saying ian kerso is trading illegally?
I suspect you may wish to clarify that point if so.......

 

[Flash In The Pan]

I don't want to split hairs with you Graham, but I didn't actually "quote" what their FAQ says word for word and it was my personal interpretation, not my claim. The FAQ actually reads as:-

"3. Will I have to pay Import taxes?

No, all import taxes/duties/VAT are covered by us. We are responsible for all additional tax charges. The price you see when you place an order with us, is all you have to pay. The price displayed for items sold by Panamoz Electronics are inclusive. You will be able to see your final price before you confirm your order, when you have completed your order information (including your delivery address).

Well, yes, it's just your interpretation. My interpretation is that the duty isn't being paid, hence my asking the question, I can't see why you're having trouble with the concept that someone would want to double-check that everything was above board before parting with a large sum of money to someone at the other side of the world.

Nevertheless, I also doubt you'll get an answer, other than what's been published in their FAQ and given the fact they are closed until 4th October.

"Tina" has been on this forum, answering other queries, since this was posted, without addressing what is a fairly straightforward question. Draw from that any conclusion you wish.

By the way, have you asked the same question to DigitalRev, OneStopDigital and HDEW? If so, what were their answers?

I've asked Digital Rev, they made it clear that their prices didn't include local taxes and payment of them was up to the importer.

HDEW Cameras are a VAT registered UK retailer with a bricks and mortar presence, OneStop are HK based, but their FAQ section contradicts itself with regard to VAT, so I think it is safe to say they don't pay it either.

 

[B1ts]

It's a no brainer to want a VAT receipt if you're a business as it means another chunk off! Who wouldn't want one?!

Noone is arguing that.
Just that if you do want one you should deal with a company that adds it to their/your price and thereby get relevant paperwork.
You cant reclaim what hasnt been paid.
Legal/moral or whatever for vat recpt boils down to that really.

There would be little to no market for other companies out there if the likes of panamoz et al were selling at their prices and inc vat within them, uk companies dont choose to be uncompetitive, margins are not that high.

 

[Rebel t3i]

kThe importer is liable for the VAT and duty which in this scenario would be you Graham not the foreign based company
Imports and purchases from abroad: paying and reclaiming VAT
Generally speaking, VAT is payable on all purchases of goods and services that you buy from abroad at the same rate that would apply to the goods or services if supplied in the UK. You must tell HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) about goods that you import, and pay any VAT and duty that is due. taken from here http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/managing/international/imports/importing.htm

I have stated this on other treads before but you choose to try to imply that the foreign base companies are breaking UK law when in fact it appears they are not
seems you are on a bit of a witch hunt IMO
why pick on panamoz what about all the hundreds of other companies that ship into the uk
The facts are that we don't really manufacture anything in the uk so almost all goods are imported including most of you food and clothes

 

[B1ts]

In what way am I trying to "stitch them up"?

I'm sure it's just a misunderstanding too, so I'm sure Panamoz will have no qualms with confirming that UK tax is paid on the goods (and therefore reclaimable as per my original question), because the impression I'm getting is that it's not, unless they get caught.

If anyone posted a thread asking whether they should buy from an Ebay seller in HK and deliberately avoid tax then the mods would be all over it, pointing to the site's t&cs, the assumption therefore is that Panamoz are above board and the UK tax is paid and can be reclaimed...

So what is your view re digitalrev?
That may make all three advertisers here illegal?
Maybe you should be asking the mods?

 

[domino1999]

Well, yes, it's just your interpretation. My interpretation is that the duty isn't being paid, hence my asking the question, I can't see why you're having trouble with the concept that someone would want to double-check that everything was above board before parting with a large sum of money to someone at the other side of the world.

"Tina" has been on this forum, answering other queries, since this was posted, without addressing what is a fairly straightforward question. Draw from that any conclusion you wish.

I have no trouble with you wanting to double-check that everything is above board. However, you're doing it on a public forum, so you have to expect other people to give their opinions as well. If you just want the answer directly from Panamoz/Tina themselves, then simply email them directly, as I've already suggested a couple of times, or put a remark in your opening post saying that you only want replies from Panamoz/Tina and not other forum users.

It's not for me to draw any conclusion from the fact that Tina hasn't participated in this thread. I've already made my mind up to order from Panamoz, that's what I've done. I'm not interested in reclaiming VAT because it's for my own personal use, not business.

I will now butt out. Good luck on your quest, Graham, hope you find the answers you're looking for

 

[B1ts]

That's my point, Panamoz state that

the inference there is that either a) the prices include UK taxes, or b) they prices don't include UK taxes and/or are under-declared but if the shipment gets stopped by customs then Panamoz will pony up.

If it's A then they will have a UK VAT number, if it's B then they are breaking the law, as is, as you stated, the buyer/importer.

Agreed.
My point was your assumption that it had to be a) , the wording carefully avoided that imho.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

The importer is liable for the VAT and duty which in this scenario would be you Graham not the foreign based company
Imports and purchases from abroad: paying and reclaiming VAT
Generally speaking, VAT is payable on all purchases of goods and services that you buy from abroad at the same rate that would apply to the goods or services if supplied in the UK. You must tell HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) about goods that you import, and pay any VAT and duty that is due.

I'm well aware of the situation regarding VAT on imported goods, Tony that's why I am asking Panamoz to clarify the situation as they say they "cover" them and it is obvious from other posts in the thread that others are of the impression that this means they (Panamoz) pay them.

The legal position is that any company who carry out business in the UK, which Panamoz clearly do, have to be VAT registered if their sales exceed the VAT threshold, which Panamoz's clearly do. If they are legit the VAT can be reclaimed by VAT-registered individuals/companies.

Answer me this then, Tony. Did you pay VAT on the goods YOU imported from Panamoz?

 

[B1ts]

I'm with Graham on this too.

Just to be clear I am too sort of lol, just not the "they include vat" assumption as "inc vat" has special meaning legally, eg if you were to use it on your site to mean you didnt charge it (below threshold or whatever) you become liable to pay hmg by using the phrase.
Saying they "cover the taxes" is not the same thing.

 

[B1ts]

Not if their price genuinely does include VAT

It doesnt and they dont say it does, you inferred it, which is not the same

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Answe me this Tony, did you, as the importer, pay the VAT and import duty that was due on...

Just ordered a 650d and 18-135mm STM lens
fancy the touch screen
had to be from panamoz as it was nearly £100 cheaper than the price I had been quoted from DR

Just curious, because £100 sounds like roughly the amount of duty that would be due and would explain the difference if DR's price included the relevant taxes.....

 

[domino1999]

The legal position is that any company who carry out business in the UK, which Panamoz clearly do, have to be VAT registered if their sales exceed the VAT threshold, which Panamoz's clearly do. If they are legit the VAT can be reclaimed by VAT-registered individuals/companies.

Well I was going to butt out until I saw this.

From HMRC:-

"If you're in business, you must register for VAT if your VAT taxable turnover for the previous 12 months is more than £77,000."

So you know for a fact that Panamoz VAT taxable turnover exceeds £77,000? How would you know this?

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Well I was going to butt out until I saw this.

From HMRC:-

"If you're in business, you must register for VAT if your VAT taxable turnover for the previous 12 months is more than £77,000."

So you know for a fact that Panamoz VAT taxable turnover exceeds £77,000? How would you know this?

I can count £77k would equate to less than 7 mid-range DSLRs a month, they're selling more than that here on TP in a week, never mind via their website or any other fora...

EDIT: A quick look at the other threads in this section shows that they exceeded the £6.5k monthly threshold with just 2-3 days of TP sales.

 

[B1ts]

You say digitalrev answered you but that answer would only seem to appky to their ebay shop.
Digitalrev.com and also their occasional ebay special claim they cover the taxes, just as per Panamoz etc.

Hdew seem to be the only company that will supply vat invoices (on request only though?) Then again their prices sit between hk and uk so poss playing the margins etc once in uk as they seem to supply imports but from uk warehouse.
(ok they are all imports lol but you know what i mean, i hope)

 

[FourRingCircus]

Can we please stop nudging and winking, and call a spade a spade? It's illegal activity- full stop.

By the way, have you asked the same question to DigitalRev, OneStopDigital and HDEW? If so, what were their answers?

I don't understand why questions are being asked about this unless people are plainly making a point about the choices of others (probably because all their gear is from the UK high street or they can't get a decent price for 2nd hand gear).

There is no VAT to reclaim for goods purchased via these suppliers - period. :nono:

By importing goods from outside of the UK, you are either knowingly, or unknowingly evading UK VAT. The HK exporters are all complicit in this, as they suggest that they will cover duties/taxes IF you are charged on the doorstep. Furthermore, they are not always legitimately stating consignment contents and values. However, HMRC cannot easily (if at all) take a foreign entity to task in the UK unless they are active and registered in the UK. There are enough rouge traders here to keep them busy anyway. The foreign authorities will do nothing as these companies are not necessarily breaking any laws over there.

It happens on a much larger scale with tobacco and alcohol at our ports and airports, so that's where HMRC are putting their resources. Perhaps one day they will turn their attention to small electronic goods via couriers, but it will need a lot more resources which in turn, will lessen the returns.

If anyone can't understand the 'VAT thing', then they plainly don't realise that for every £100 they spend over the counter in this country, the government takes £20 of it from the retailer (excluding most grocery items, kids clothes, and a few other things). The foreign sellers are not necessarily making a tiny profit either, they simply are not competing on the same playing field as Jessops et al. The worst thing is that people think the UK retailers are profiting the extra £20 (or £200 or £2000) and they are NOT.

When you hear people complaining that the UK economy is suffering, just imagine how much business is being lost to overseas companies in this way. I imagine that HK exports account for over £1million of photographic equipment sales just on this forum alone. The lost (government) revenue from that would pay for a few policemen on the beat in a year.

Edit: If HDEW will provide a VAT invoice then they should not be viewed in the same way. However, if it's only 'by request' then I wonder if they are actually recording all the sales which don't request such.

 

[Rebel t3i]

I'm well aware of the situation regarding VAT on imported goods, Tony that's why I am asking Panamoz to clarify the situation as they say they "cover" them and it is obvious from other posts in the thread that others are of the impression that this means they (Panamoz) pay them.

The legal position is that any company who carry out business in the UK, which Panamoz clearly do, have to be VAT registered if their sales exceed the VAT threshold, which Panamoz's clearly do. If they are legit the VAT can be reclaimed by VAT-registered individuals/companies.

Answer me this then, Tony. Did you pay VAT on the goods YOU imported from Panamoz?

Are you sure that a foreign company should be UK vat registered as far as I can see the UK importer is liable for duty and taxes not the foreign company

Duty and vat if due is collected and handled by the shipping agent not the buyer or foreign seller

I have bought items from a few companies even the US, UPS only charged me once and that was from the US. I placed repeat orders for the same goods and quantity from this company in subsequent months, the goods declarations and values were correct and true and I was not charged by UPs for any of the others.
Apparently you can be sent a bill upto a month later
It seems the system is floored and despite correct and proper declarations you may or may not be charged
seems you are more likely not to be charged
Perhaps this is more the fault of the uk government making such complex rules that they don't even understand or can't implement correctly

Graham have you actually ever imported anything or tried to import anything if not why have you gone to so much trouble to try and understand the complex uk taxation system

 

[Flash In The Pan]

You say digitalrev answered you but that answer would only seem to appky to their ebay shop.
Digitalrev.com and also their occasional ebay special claim they cover the taxes, just as per Panamoz etc.
)

Sorry, but I made the enquiry before purchasing from their website, not via Ebay. When the goods arrived the full value was declared on the customs documentation and from what I remember there was documentation confirming the duty had been paud.

 

[B1ts]

I don't understand why questions are being asked about this unless people are plainly making a point about the choices of others (probably because all their gear is from the UK high street or they can't get a decent price for 2nd hand gear).

There is no VAT to reclaim for goods purchased via these suppliers - period. :nono:

By importing goods from outside of the UK, you are either knowingly, or unknowingly evading UK VAT. The HK exporters are all complicit in this, as they suggest that they will cover duties/taxes IF you are charged on the doorstep. Furthermore, they are not always legitimately stating consignment contents and values. However, HMRC cannot easily (if at all) take a foreign entity to task in the UK unless they are active and registered in the UK. There are enough rouge traders here to keep them busy anyway. The foreign authorities will do nothing as these companies are not necessarily breaking any laws over there.

It happens on a much larger scale with tobacco and alcohol at our ports and airports, so that's where HMRC are putting their resources. Perhaps one day they will turn their attention to small electronic goods via couriers, but it will need a lot more resources which in turn, will lessen the returns.

If anyone can't understand the 'VAT thing', then they plainly don't realise that for every £100 they spend over the counter in this country, the government takes £20 of it from the retailer (excluding most grocery items, kids clothes, and a few other things). The foreign sellers are not necessarily making a tiny profit either, they simply are not competing on the same playing field as Jessops et al. The worst thing is that people think the UK retailers are profiting the extra £20 (or £200 or £2000) and they are NOT.

When you hear people complaining that the UK economy is suffering, just imagine how much business is being lost to overseas companies in this way. I imagine that HK exports account for over £1million of photographic equipment sales just on this forum alone. The lost (government) revenue from that would pay for a few policemen on the beat in a year.

+1 no hang on +1000 well said.

 

[B1ts]

Sorry, but I made the enquiry before purchasing from their website, not via Ebay. When the goods arrived the full value was declared on the customs documentation and from what I remember there was documentation confirming the duty had been paud.

But their website is more expensive than their ebay shop for the same items, so they are doing exactly the same as panamoz et al by that route, yet you still chose to give the "legit" side of the same business your money....

Are you going to do as you asked others to and post a copy of that paperwork?

 

[domino1999]

I can count £77k would equate to less than 7 mid-range DSLRs a month, they're selling more than that here on TP in a week, never mind via their website or any other fora...

What did you count exactly? Are you assuming that those TP members ordering from Panamoz are having the goods delivered into the UK. I suspect (though can't say for sure, of course) that there may be some members who don't even live in the UK and this will be particularly true of people using their website, which is open for the whole world to see.

If you can say for a FACT that they've exceeded the threshold, then please, present the evidence.

Without getting a definitive, clear answer directly from Panamoz, this thread is nothing more than assumptions, individual interpretations and speculation.

So I refer you to my last but one post, to try emailing them.

I will now, finally, bow out....

EDIT: Just saw your edit about the £6.5K in 2-3 days. That's a long way off £77K....keep counting

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Are you sure that a foreign company should be UK vat registered as far as I can see the UK importer is liable for duty and taxes not the foreign company

I've posted this already on the thread, however...

Non-resident businesses or individuals with operations in the UK are still required to register if they meet any of the criteria for registration. Non-resident businesses or individuals who have no place of business in the UK, but are nevertheless eligible for VAT registration by merit of: supplying VAT-liable goods or services in, to, or from the UK, assuming control of a VAT-registered business, or receiving VAT liable goods from another EU country (all subject to the GBP70,000 threshold), must register as a Non-Established Taxable Person (NETP).

Duty and vat if due is collected and handled by the shipping agent not the buyer or foreign seller

I have bought items from a few companies even the US, UPS only charged me once and that was from the US. I placed repeat orders for the same goods and quantity from this company in subsequent months, the goods declarations and values were correct and true and I was not charged by UPs for any of the others.
Apparently you can be sent a bill upto a month later
It seems the system is floored and despite correct and proper declarations you may or may not be charged
seems you are more likely not to be charged
Perhaps this is more the fault of the uk government making such complex rules that they don't even understand or can't implement correctly

I can't help but notice you're dodging the question of whether you paid duty on your camera, Tony

Graham have you actually ever imported anything or tried to import anything if not why have you gone to so much trouble to try and understand the complex uk taxation system

Yes, many times, so I have first-hand knowledge of how all of the major shipping companies deal with the collection of duty, which company delivered your camera?

 

[2blue4u]

It's the elephant in the room. Of course it's illegal as it is circumventing the VAT rules in the UK. Recipients of goods personally imported into this country are liable to VAT (and, in some cases, duty). HK suppliers circumvent this by being less than fully truthful when completing mailing documentation. They put their potential customer's minds at rest be agreeing to repay any VAT their customer is caught for.

These HK suppliers do not have to be VAT registered in the UK, no matter how much trade they do here, as they are not UK companies.

John - FourRingCircus is spot on - except -

If anyone can't understand the 'VAT thing', then they plainly don't realise that for every £100 they spend over the counter in this country, the government takes £20 of it from the retailer (excluding most grocery items, kids clothes, and a few other things).

Should read

If anyone can't understand the 'VAT thing', then they plainly don't realise that for every £100 they spend over the counter in this country, the government takes £16.67 of it from the retailer (excluding most grocery items, kids clothes, and a few other things).

My only question is, are the personal importers (customers) breaking the law in receiving goods from HK suppliers in order to evade VAT and any import duty?

 

[admirable]

for every £100 they spend over the counter in this country, the government takes £20 of it from the retailer

It's £16.67 actually but I'll let you off this time

 

[Flash In The Pan]

What did you count exactly? Are you assuming that those TP members ordering from Panamoz are having the goods delivered into the UK. I suspect (though can't say for sure, of course) that there may be some members who don't even live in the UK and this will be particularly true of people using their website, which is open for the whole world to see.

If you can say for a FACT that they've exceeded the threshold, then please, present the evidence.

Without getting a definitive, clear answer directly from Panamoz, this thread is nothing more than assumptions, individual interpretations and speculation.

So I refer you to my last but one post, to try emailing them.

I will now, finally, bow out....

EDIT: Just saw your edit about the £6.5K in 2-3 days. That's a long way off £77K....keep counting

You're displaying a lack of understanding of how VAT works, £6.5k in 2-3 days, you have to register for VAT if you exceed that in 30 days, I'm sure if I went back and totalled up 30 days worth of sales, on TP alone, they would comfortably exceed the VAT threshold for a year, never mind a month

 

[Rebel t3i]

Graham are DR UK vat registered then you said you think you paid vat but couldn't remember
Regarding HDEW if they supply a vat invoice on demand, I thought any uk company has to supply a sales invoice full stop if the goods value is above 50 quid
The simple thing to do is for you to support the Uk government and their dodgy expenses claims and Uk business and order your goods from the uk
buy from jessops pc world etc etc if indeed they are actually based in the Uk and not owned by some other corporation based in gurnsey lol

 

[FourRingCircus]

John - FourRingCircus is spot on - except -
£16.67 on £100.00

:bonk::bonk::bonk: Yes, you're right - Too early in the morning for me! :bonk::bonk::bonk:

My only question is, are the personal importers (customers) breaking the law in receiving goods from HK suppliers in order to evade VAT and any import duty?

I've pondered this myself - is it up to the individual (who may not know that they have evaded this tax) to declare it unilaterally, or does it only become illegal if they refuse to pay (or more likely if they come up with a fraudulent excuse) when asked by HMRC.:shrug:

 

[Flash In The Pan]

These HK suppliers do not have to be VAT registered in the UK, no matter how much trade they do here, as they are not UK companies.

The law changed in 2010, they are now required to register if their sales exceed the VAT threshold.

My only question is, are the personal importers (customers) breaking the law in receiving goods from HK suppliers in order to evade VAT and any import duty?

Of course they are, your use if the word "evade" should be an indication of that

 

[domino1999]

You're displaying a lack of understanding of how VAT works, £6.5k in 2-3 days, you have to register for VAT if you exceed that in 30 days, I'm sure if I went back and totalled up 30 days worth of sales, on TP alone, they would comfortably exceed the VAT threshold for a year, never mind a month

Maybe I am. I am neither a tax lawyer, an accountant, or a business owner. I'm sure you're all more qualified than I am to discuss such matters.

However, I still believe your initial question has been answered by the point in the FAQ on their website and I stand by my suggestion that you should email them for clarification and total satisfaction on your part, otherwise this is nothing more than assumptions and speculation.