Royal Mail and lithium batteries

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Mervyn
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Have read posts from 2014 where there was obviously doubt about sending batteries by Royal Mail unless inside a camera. Well I'm in no doubt now! Tried to post a battery via Royal Mail today and was told it is illegal to transport any lithium battery unless inside a camera. Sadly had sold this on eBay so will have to eat humble pie and refund. My fault, ignorance of the law is no excuse.
COLLECTPLUS also confirmed the same and wouldn't touch it
merv:runaway::runaway:
 
yes it's totally stupid - you can send equipment with batteries installed + a couple of extra ones not installed but you can't send the extra ones separately
 
You could install it in a box and send it that way?
 
Have read posts from 2014 where there was obviously doubt about sending batteries by Royal Mail unless inside a camera. Well I'm in no doubt now! Tried to post a battery via Royal Mail today and was told it is illegal to transport any lithium battery unless inside a camera. Sadly had sold this on eBay so will have to eat humble pie and refund. My fault, ignorance of the law is no excuse.
COLLECTPLUS also confirmed the same and wouldn't touch it
merv:runaway::runaway:

You were obviously misinformed. When confronted by jobsworths I always ask them to produce the relevant information ( or policy ) in most cases they can't find it, imagined it or dreamt it up. I'm speaking generally here. I recall the previous thread(s) on the Royal Mail and even commented on it.

Seriously, you can post lithium batteries and they don't have to be inside the camera even though they are defined Dangerous Goods ( Limited Quantity). They even let them on aircraft these days !
 
You were obviously misinformed. When confronted by jobsworths I always ask them to produce the relevant information ( or policy ) in most cases they can't find it, imagined it or dreamt it up. I'm speaking generally here. I recall the previous thread(s) on the Royal Mail and even commented on it.

Seriously, you can post lithium batteries and they don't have to be inside the camera even though they are defined Dangerous Goods ( Limited Quantity). They even let them on aircraft these days !

Can you show us where that's noted I the Royal ail posting advice ? - 100% sure you're wrong... but hope you're correct ;)
 
You were obviously misinformed. When confronted by jobsworths I always ask them to produce the relevant information ( or policy ) in most cases they can't find it, imagined it or dreamt it up. I'm speaking generally here. I recall the previous thread(s) on the Royal Mail and even commented on it.

Seriously, you can post lithium batteries and they don't have to be inside the camera even though they are defined Dangerous Goods ( Limited Quantity). They even let them on aircraft these days !

Although you are right they can be posted, Royal Mail T&Cs clearly don't allow single batteries to be posted. Their prohibited goods T&Cs clearly say 'Lithium ion/polymer/metal/alloy batteries when not sent with, or contained in/connected to an electronic device, are prohibited'. Whether it's legal issue or not Royal Mail can decide what they take (their loss of business), the 'jobs-worth' is only complying with RM procedures that they have to, if they don't then is their head for the chop.

With companies like Royal Mail with hundreds maybe thousands of customer parcel receiving post offices throughout the UK it's easier and cheaper for them to decide on a blanket ban rather than train and monitor so many different post offices to ensure compliance with the rules. If they had only a few post offices it may be easier the train people and ensure compliance with the rules. Sometimes it not about whether it's legal or not but more to do with ensuring compliance with the rules.

I've find the info below on Royal Mails website:

Restricted goods - personal customers
Things we can carry in UK post but with restrictions

Batteries - lithium ion/polymer batteries contained in/connected to an electronic device

Each package must contain no more than four cells or two batteries installed in equipment. The maximum net quantity of cells or batteries is 5kg per package. Watt-hour rating must not exceed 20Wh per cell or 100Wh per battery. Each cell and battery must be of a type proven to meet the requirements of each test in the UN Manual of Tests and Criteria, Part III, section 38.3. Batteries are subject to these tests irrespective of whether the cells of which they are composed have been so tested.

Cells and batteries must be manufactured under a quality management programme as specified in the International Civil Aviation Organization’s Technical Instructions for the Safe Transport of Dangerous Goods by Air. Cells or batteries that are defective for safety reasons, or that have been damaged, are forbidden. Any person preparing or offering cells or batteries with or in equipment for transport must receive adequate instruction on the requirements commensurate with their responsibilities. Cells and batteries must be protected against short circuit.

The equipment containing cells or batteries must be packed in strong rigid packaging and must be secured against movement within the outer packaging and packed to prevent accidental activation. The sender’s name and return address must be clearly visible on the outer packaging.

These items must be presented at a Post Office® counter.

Lithium ion/polymer batteries sent in isolation are prohibited. Please seewww.royalmail.com/prohibitedgoods

Batteries - lithium ion/polymer batteries sent with, but not connected to, an electronic device

The maximum number of batteries allowed in each package is the number that may be connected to the equipment plus two spares. The maximum net quantity of cells or batteries is 5kg per package. Watt-hour rating must not exceed 20Wh per cell or 100Wh per battery. Each cell and battery must be of a type proven to meet the requirements of each test in the UN Manual of Tests and Criteria, Part III, section 38.3. Batteries are subject to these tests irrespective of whether the cells of which they are composed have been so tested.

Cells and batteries must be manufactured under a quality management programme as specified in the International Civil Aviation Organization’s Technical Instructions for the Safe Transport of Dangerous Goods by Air. Cells or batteries that are defective for safety reasons, or that have been damaged, are forbidden. Any person preparing or offering cells or batteries with or in equipment for transport must receive adequate instruction on the requirements commensurate with their responsibilities. The consignment must be accompanied with a document with an indication that the package contains lithium ion cells or batteries; that the package must be handled with care and that a flammability hazard exists if the package is damaged; that special procedures must be followed in the event the package is damaged, to include inspection and repacking if necessary; and also a telephone number for additional information.

Cells and batteries must be packed in inner packagings that completely enclose the cell or battery. Cells and batteries must be protected against short circuit, including protection against contact with conductive materials within the same packaging that could lead to a short circuit. The equipment sent with cells or batteries must be packed in strong rigid packaging and must be secured against movement within the outer packaging and packed to prevent accidental activation.

Lithium battery handling label to be applied ( see an example lithium battery label ). The sender’s name and return address must be clearly visible on the outer packaging.

These items must be presented at a Post Office® counter.

Lithium ion/polymer batteries sent in isolation are prohibited. Please seewww.royalmail.com/prohibitedgoods


Prohibited goods - personal customers
Items you cannot send in the post

Batteries

Batteries that are classed as dangerous goods by the latest edition of the International Civil Aviation Organization’s (ICAO) Technical Instructions are prohibited. This includes wet spillable lead acid/lead alkaline batteries (such as car batteries), used alkaline metal, nickel metal hydride (NiMH), nickel cadmium (NiCd), zinc-air batteries, and damaged batteries of any type.

Lithium ion/polymer/metal/alloy batteries when not sent with, or contained in/connected to an electronic device, are prohibited.

Lithium ion/polymer/metal/alloy batteries are allowed when sent with or contained in/connected to an electronic device, but are subject to packaging, volume and quantity restrictions. Please seewww.royalmail.com/restrictedgoods.

For more information on lithium batteries please see the IATA Lithium Battery Guidance Document .

Sealed lead acid batteries are allowed in the UK, but are also subject to packaging, volume, quantity and labelling restrictions. Please seewww.royalmail.com/restrictedgoods

Alkaline metal, nickel metal hydride (NiMH) and nickel cadmium (NiCd) batteries may only be sent when new and in their original packaging. Please see www.royalmail.com/restrictedgoods



UPS seem to have a good guide that explains what they can take (link below):

http://www.ups.com/media/news/en/ca/intl_lithium_battery_regulations.pdf

It looks like UPS may be worth trying.
 
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Seems pretty clear...

Lithium ion/polymer/metal/alloy batteries when not sent with, or contained in/connected to an electronic device, are prohibited.
 
Can you show us where that's noted I the Royal ail posting advice ? - 100% sure you're wrong... but hope you're correct ;)

The answer is partly yes and no. It' looks like it's legal to post small quantities but Royal Mail have imposed their own ban on themselves, hence Royal Mail don't take them posted separately outside of equipment.
 
When confronted by jobsworths I always ask them to produce the relevant information ( or policy ) in most cases they can't find it, imagined it or dreamt it up.

My local post office is in our local shop (post office open from 7am to 10pm 7 days a week! I can't moan about that). They have a big A2 sized poster with the prohibited items clearly listed, they always point it out and ask, the battery posting limitations are clearly listed. This is the problem with running a multiple outlet business, some outlets may not know exactly where this information is when asked.
 
You can send batteries through the post if they are packaged correctly - That is a fact

I have done it myself on numerous occasions, you need to let the member of pot office staff know and they will label the package accordingly
 
I have bought Li-on batteries online and they have been delivered by Royal Mail.

Non-UP sellers anre not bound by the same restrictions so eBay sellers from HK for example still ship

You can send batteries through the post if they are packaged correctly - That is a fact

I have done it myself on numerous occasions, you need to let the member of pot office staff know and they will label the package accordingly

No you can't - not legally anyway - I speed occasionally doesn't mean it's legal....
 
I am pretty sure one of the courier services will take them although most won't.

(or attach the battery to a 'device'........Maplins have lots of kits!)
 
Although you are right they can be posted, Royal Mail T&Cs clearly don't allow single batteries to be posted. Their prohibited goods T&Cs clearly say 'Lithium ion/polymer/metal/alloy batteries when not sent with, or contained in/connected to an electronic device, are prohibited'. Whether it's legal issue or not Royal Mail can decide what they take (their loss of business), the 'jobs-worth' is only complying with RM procedures that they have to, if they don't then is their head for the chop.

With companies like Royal Mail with hundreds maybe thousands of customer parcel receiving post offices throughout the UK it's easier and cheaper for them to decide on a blanket ban rather than train and monitor so many different post offices to ensure compliance with the rules. If they had only a few post offices it may be easier the train people and ensure compliance with the rules. Sometimes it not about whether it's legal or not but more to do with ensuring compliance with the rules.

I've find the info below on Royal Mails website:

Restricted goods - personal customers
Things we can carry in UK post but with restrictions

Batteries - lithium ion/polymer batteries contained in/connected to an electronic device

Each package must contain no more than four cells or two batteries installed in equipment. The maximum net quantity of cells or batteries is 5kg per package. Watt-hour rating must not exceed 20Wh per cell or 100Wh per battery. Each cell and battery must be of a type proven to meet the requirements of each test in the UN Manual of Tests and Criteria, Part III, section 38.3. Batteries are subject to these tests irrespective of whether the cells of which they are composed have been so tested.

Cells and batteries must be manufactured under a quality management programme as specified in the International Civil Aviation Organization’s Technical Instructions for the Safe Transport of Dangerous Goods by Air. Cells or batteries that are defective for safety reasons, or that have been damaged, are forbidden. Any person preparing or offering cells or batteries with or in equipment for transport must receive adequate instruction on the requirements commensurate with their responsibilities. Cells and batteries must be protected against short circuit.

The equipment containing cells or batteries must be packed in strong rigid packaging and must be secured against movement within the outer packaging and packed to prevent accidental activation. The sender’s name and return address must be clearly visible on the outer packaging.

These items must be presented at a Post Office[emoji768] counter.

Lithium ion/polymer batteries sent in isolation are prohibited. Please seewww.royalmail.com/prohibitedgoods

Batteries - lithium ion/polymer batteries sent with, but not connected to, an electronic device

The maximum number of batteries allowed in each package is the number that may be connected to the equipment plus two spares. The maximum net quantity of cells or batteries is 5kg per package. Watt-hour rating must not exceed 20Wh per cell or 100Wh per battery. Each cell and battery must be of a type proven to meet the requirements of each test in the UN Manual of Tests and Criteria, Part III, section 38.3. Batteries are subject to these tests irrespective of whether the cells of which they are composed have been so tested.

Cells and batteries must be manufactured under a quality management programme as specified in the International Civil Aviation Organization’s Technical Instructions for the Safe Transport of Dangerous Goods by Air. Cells or batteries that are defective for safety reasons, or that have been damaged, are forbidden. Any person preparing or offering cells or batteries with or in equipment for transport must receive adequate instruction on the requirements commensurate with their responsibilities. The consignment must be accompanied with a document with an indication that the package contains lithium ion cells or batteries; that the package must be handled with care and that a flammability hazard exists if the package is damaged; that special procedures must be followed in the event the package is damaged, to include inspection and repacking if necessary; and also a telephone number for additional information.

Cells and batteries must be packed in inner packagings that completely enclose the cell or battery. Cells and batteries must be protected against short circuit, including protection against contact with conductive materials within the same packaging that could lead to a short circuit. The equipment sent with cells or batteries must be packed in strong rigid packaging and must be secured against movement within the outer packaging and packed to prevent accidental activation.

Lithium battery handling label to be applied ( see an example lithium battery label ). The sender’s name and return address must be clearly visible on the outer packaging.

These items must be presented at a Post Office[emoji768] counter.

Lithium ion/polymer batteries sent in isolation are prohibited. Please seewww.royalmail.com/prohibitedgoods


Prohibited goods - personal customers
Items you cannot send in the post

Batteries

Batteries that are classed as dangerous goods by the latest edition of the International Civil Aviation Organization’s (ICAO) Technical Instructions are prohibited. This includes wet spillable lead acid/lead alkaline batteries (such as car batteries), used alkaline metal, nickel metal hydride (NiMH), nickel cadmium (NiCd), zinc-air batteries, and damaged batteries of any type.

Lithium ion/polymer/metal/alloy batteries when not sent with, or contained in/connected to an electronic device, are prohibited.

Lithium ion/polymer/metal/alloy batteries are allowed when sent with or contained in/connected to an electronic device, but are subject to packaging, volume and quantity restrictions. Please seewww.royalmail.com/restrictedgoods.

For more information on lithium batteries please see the IATA Lithium Battery Guidance Document .

Sealed lead acid batteries are allowed in the UK, but are also subject to packaging, volume, quantity and labelling restrictions. Please seewww.royalmail.com/restrictedgoods

Alkaline metal, nickel metal hydride (NiMH) and nickel cadmium (NiCd) batteries may only be sent when new and in their original packaging. Please see www.royalmail.com/restrictedgoods



UPS seem to have a good guide that explains what they can take (link below):

http://www.ups.com/media/news/en/ca/intl_lithium_battery_regulations.pdf

It looks like UPS may be worth trying.

As you say Lithium batteries are defined as Dangerous Goods ( UIN 3090 ). I mentioned Limited Quantities in my original post. However, you have to be able to be able to interpret the legislation correctly. Unfortunately some people can't and this includes some postal workers.

When I returned my D750 to Nikon (UK) a couple of months ago from the main York Central Post Office with the pre-paid postage . I pointed out there was a LithIum batteries contained in the package.They said "it wasn't an issue and was covered by the insurance". I got a proof of purchase receipt and off it went by RMSD. ipso facto. That wasn't the first time. I have done this and have used RMSD to send batteries on many occasions.

Ultimately whether you can or can't send it will fall to the individual behind the Post Office Counter and your conversation with them. I find a nice polite good morning please can you help approach best.
 
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Li-ion batteries can be sent 'with' an electronic device, so chuck an LED in the box with the battery, it doesn't have to be connected or have anything to do with the battery.
 
Just send it via collect plus. RM use planes to get their mail around the country so will scan parcels. Collect plus use the road network so don't.
My business is laptop batteries and we always recommend that customers use collect plus to return batteries to us. Never had one go astray.

We have had a couple of customers ignore our recommendation and used RM and a few have been found and destroyed.
 
As you say Lithium batteries are defined as Dangerous Goods ( UIN 3090 ). I mentioned Limited Quantities in my original post. However, you have to be able to be able to interpret the legislation correctly. Unfortunately some people can't and this includes some postal workers.

When I returned my D750 to Nikon (UK) a couple of months ago from the main York Central Post Office with the pre-paid postage . I pointed out there was a LithIum batteries contained in the package.They said "it wasn't an issue and was covered by the insurance". I got a proof of purchase receipt and off it went by RMSD. ipso facto. That wasn't the first time. I have done this and have used RMSD to send batteries on many occasions.

Ultimately whether you can or can't send it will fall to the individual behind the Post Office Counter and your conversation with them. I find a nice polite good morning please can you help approach best.
Unfortunately it's not about the legislation, it's about Royal Mail's own rules (which are quoted in various posts above). You can send (up to 2) spare batteries with a device, but cannot send Lithium batteries separately. That is quite clearly stated on the Royal Mail website and in their prohibitions and restrictions leaflet.
 
I received my new D810 yesterday and it had a warning sticker on the packaging.
The battery was obviously not inside the camera.
Royal Mail delivered it.
 
  • Garmin Nuvi 1390T Replacement Battery
  • 3.7 V
  • 1250mAh
  • Li-Polymer
  • CE & ROHS Approved
I am quite sure this came by Royal Mail Post. Am I missing something?
I have bought spares for Nikon and Leica from same source.

The rules for this are in post 8

Cells and batteries must be packed in inner packagings that completely enclose the cell or battery. Cells and batteries must be protected against short circuit, including protection against contact with conductive materials within the same packaging that could lead to a short circuit.
 
Unfortunately it's not about the legislation, it's about Royal Mail's own rules (which are quoted in various posts above). You can send (up to 2) spare batteries with a device, but cannot send Lithium batteries separately. That is quite clearly stated on the Royal Mail website and in their prohibitions and restrictions leaflet.
That's exactly what I said in my early post (with a copy of royal mails t&c's for restricted and prohibited goods. RM's rules are not a legal issue, just their own rules to ensure they comply. The legal rules differ depending on the package, quantity, packaging so it's easier for them to apply a blanket ban to ensure they comply at all of their post offices.
 
I have bought Li-on batteries online and they have been delivered by Royal Mail.

  • Garmin Nuvi 1390T Replacement Battery
  • 3.7 V
  • 1250mAh
  • Li-Polymer
  • CE & ROHS Approved
I am quite sure this came by Royal Mail Post. Am I missing something?
I have bought spares for Nikon and Leica from same source.

The issue is 'personal' and 'business' customers, RM has two different sets of rules. Business customers are more likely to comply with the rules, with the general pubic compliance will vary greatly. As the OP was talking about personal selling on ebay we have been talking about personal not business customers.

There are some couriers/delivery firms that do send batteries for the public because their postal network doesn't use aircraft and that is where the issue lies. RM send uk post by air hence 5pm collections and delivery by 9am or 11am the next day.
 
No you can't - not legally anyway - I speed occasionally doesn't mean it's legal....

Yes you can - it is a fact

You are wrong

I am not going to argue with you about it either and I also do not appreciate your accusation that I may be doing something illegal

If I am posting batteries I make sure there are packaged correctly AND inform the post office counter staff who then label the package appropriately
 
Interested to read this. Our post office closed a few years ago and the nearest is 12 miles away. I was going to be passing there and a neighbour asked if I'd post a parcel for her. I was cross-examined by the guy behind the counter but I had no idea what was in the box, couldn't contact the owner, so he refused to take the parcel. Turned out to be a pair of boots. I had no idea of the new rules and hadn't seen any poster.

Anyone know did RM have any TV or magazine campaign to let customers know because I hadn't heard of it until the above incident? I haven't heard of any recent incident with batteries since the fake Nokia batteries a few years ago. I assume that these batteries must present a potential serious hazard for RM to take this action?
 
Think a couple of you need to calm down. Its Saturday after all :)

Be careful you are not getting UK and International post mixed up.
If you package properly and inform the post office you are sending batteries there is no issue in the UK.
However you may be refused if sending them abroad.

It is only illegal if you do not inform the post office what you are sending.
 
Interested to read this. Our post office closed a few years ago and the nearest is 12 miles away. I was going to be passing there and a neighbour asked if I'd post a parcel for her. I was cross-examined by the guy behind the counter but I had no idea what was in the box, couldn't contact the owner, so he refused to take the parcel. Turned out to be a pair of boots. I had no idea of the new rules and hadn't seen any poster.

Anyone know did RM have any TV or magazine campaign to let customers know because I hadn't heard of it until the above incident? I haven't heard of any recent incident with batteries since the fake Nokia batteries a few years ago. I assume that these batteries must present a potential serious hazard for RM to take this action?

This you tube video shows what happens to a lithium battery if short circuited. Imagine that on an aircraft.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HCGtRgBUHX8
 
7dayshop will deliver Lithium batteries using DPD Courier - problem is they charge £6 for delivery but that's the only delivery option for Lithium cells.... so the fact that some courier services can be used is largely irrelevant due to the costs involved
 
Yes you can - it is a fact

You are wrong

I am not going to argue with you about it either and I also do not appreciate your accusation that I may be doing something illegal

If I am posting batteries I make sure there are packaged correctly AND inform the post office counter staff who then label the package appropriately
I'm curious, show me the guidelines that say you can post batteries separately. All I can find is those that say you can't.
 
Yes you can - it is a fact

You are wrong

I am not going to argue with you about it either and I also do not appreciate your accusation that I may be doing something illegal

If I am posting batteries I make sure there are packaged correctly AND inform the post office counter staff who then label the package appropriately

Then don't argue - just prove it - the fact that your local PO counter staff don't know the Rules is hardly relevant and certainly not proof of anything other than their ignorance of the rules they are supposed to enforce - there are also UK based businesses who are happy to ignore the RM Rules as well - doesn't mean they are not breaking the rules and shouldn't be doing it...
 
All carriers have to comply with strict guidelines re carriage of Lithium batteries. Quite rightly too as they have been implicated in some extremely serious incidents including the downing of aircraft. Did you know that you are not allowed to carry any spare Lithium batteries in checked luggage on an aircraft? You may carry them in hand luggage but they cant go in your hold luggage. So when Ryaniar decide that your hand luggage has to go in the hold those batteries need to be removed.
With Postal companies there are very strict regulations applied to carriage of batteries including the requirement to place your lithium battery into the camera body before it can be transported by air.
Nothing to do with Royal Mail, more to do with international carriage regulations.
Have a glance through this IATA document and then worry about passengers who have ignored the rules and put batteries in to their suitcases on your flight...... Likelihood of a fire in flight isnt too high, but consequences if it does occur can be catastrophic.
Perhaps we need to be looking at something much safer than Lithium to power our equipment.
http://www.iata.org/publications/Do...-mitigation-guidance-for-operators-1st-ed.pdf
 
I'm curious, show me the guidelines that say you can post batteries separately. All I can find is those that say you can't.

I'm sure many of us would like to see those guidelines. Look forward to seeing them myself.

AL

Then don't argue - just prove it - the fact that your local PO counter staff don't know the Rules is hardly relevant and certainly not proof of anything other than their ignorance of the rules they are supposed to enforce - there are also UK based businesses who are happy to ignore the RM Rules as well - doesn't mean they are not breaking the rules and shouldn't be doing it...

You all need to learn to read properly then, it has already been posted in this very thread.

But just for you: LINK

Again... if you package your batteries correctly and inform the post office, who will attach the relevant label to the package, then you can send batteries in the post
 
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You all need to learn to read properly then, it has already been posted in this very thread.

But just for you: LINK

Again... if you package your batteries correctly and inform the post office, who will attach the relevant label to the package, then you can send batteries in the post

...and just for you see this from your posted link - which I had already read more than once since the RM rules were introduced...

Lithium ion/polymer batteries sent in isolation are prohibited. Please see www.royalmail.com/prohibitedgoods
 
You obviously either cant read or just like to split hairs

I said you could send batteries if PACKAGED CORRECTLY you decided that I was wrong and insinuated I was breaking the law - do that again by the way and I will see you in court
 
You obviously either cant read or just like to split hairs

I said you could send batteries if PACKAGED CORRECTLY you decided that I was wrong and insinuated I was breaking the law - do that again by the way and I will see you in court

Don't be so silly - the Royal Mail rules quoted quite plainly state that you cannot send batteries on their own irrespective of how they are packaged - and regarding any "insinuation" that's entirely down to you - I simply quoted an example of common behaviour that wasn't legal but was widely adopted - whether breaking the RM Rules on postage of Prohibited Items it Legal/Illegal is an entirely different matter - feel free to report the post in question to the Mods/Admins on here as a first step in your threatened legal action
 
Is this really still going on ?

Royal Mail have even kindly even put a link to Restricted Goods - Buisness Customers. (Things we can carry in UK post but with restrictions) http://www.royalmail.com/help-and-support/tell-me-about-restricted-goods

In addition, they also kindly supply a label for your package http://www.royalmail.com/sites/default/files/Example-Lithium-Battery-Handling-Label_0.pdf

Yes indeed - but it's the restrictions that matter isn't it ?

I do find it interesting though that you can apparently shop online at the Post Office Shop and buy Lithium AA cells....
 
Is this really still going on?

The problem is they are both right but arguing slightly different points. My post #8 had a copy of the Royal Mail T&Cs for personal customers (there are T&Cs for business customers too but Merv was talking from a personal sale on ebay in the OP), it's best to point people towards them instead of arguing on here on a wet Saturday afternoon.
 
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