Schedule 1 Licence.

Dale.

Dale.

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Dale.
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Some of you will know, I've been watching the kingfishers on my local river, I've had flybys and had them perched too but too far away.

Yesterday, after months (well years) of long river walks and a bit of digging on the internet, I have found a kingfisher nest site. The nest seems to be in the process of being built, I saw both birds, it's near a footpath and they seem quite happy with human presence. I stuck to the footpath so as not to break the rules and kept my distance from the nest itself. I didn't take any photos, despite having my camera. I also spoke to the river Bailiff who was on his rounds and he said it was an established site and this was the kingfishers 4th year there. There are also 2 makeshift hides nearby and I know of the person involved with those but not on a personal basis. As far as I know, they have their Sched 1.


Has anybody here applied for their Sched1? I understand they're not issued lightly and not without some vetting and referees too. I do have experience of photographing wild birds as some of you will know and I also have my own garden hide, which might go in my favour as it shows some experience and the amount of experience a person has is one of the things they look for. I’ll save you the details but I'm also quite handy with fieldcraft.

I meant to apply last year, for this very moment but I didn't get around to it, so that bit is my bad.

It would be nice to photograph near the nest site (within very good reason) but for now, I'm going to watch the bird's habits away from the nest to see where they perch/fish as this happens quite often, away from the nest. I saw one bird fly up river yesterday as I headed home, a good 1/2 mile from the site.

I'm not one for breaking the rules and besides that, my first concern is the birds.


Any help appreciated, thanks.
 
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Which country? slightly different rules for England and wales.dont know about Scotland. They are issued but you may need 2 referees who have already had permits or regarded as experienced enough to say you are competent. They may also require doc evidence of competence i.e. photos taken at nest sites. Contact the relevant body and see what they say. Just my own view but i would not apply for a licence where anybody can go as it will attract unwanted attention particularly if a hide is involved.
 
Thanks for the reply. :)

Sorry, I should have said, I'm in Scotland. Ironically, I'm from Wales originally and it seems to be a little different there but from what I can tell, it seems England and Scotland are about the same when it comes to Sched 1. I won't know the details until I apply, which will probably be today.

Drawing attention to the sight concerns me very much. The hides are already there, built of branches, scrub etc. They are very well built in fairness, a bit like a den on steriods :LOL:, not that I lingered but it's obvious to see. They're quite well concealed and that will improve as trees get their leaves back and the grass/brambles grow. It's pretty dense scrub there during the summer months, the hides won't be obvious. Just one person seems to have been working from the site.

My intention though isn't to use those hides, I don't feel they are ideally placed, they are directly opposite the nest and also, somebody else has been to the trouble of building them and I'd respect that but I will try to speak to the person who built them. The hides are at least a season old, I have a feeling they were built Spring 2017.

My intention is to set up near a close by diving perch(es), which I think I've already indentified, these perches might be far enough away that I don't actually need a Sched 1 but I'm going to cover all bases. My car will be parked over a mile away, it's a remote spot and when the undergrowth is at its peak, diiffcult to get to, I'll be setting up before dawn. (y)

I'm thinking it's best to phone the relevant authority today, I'll get quicker anserws about what is involved that way and if I have a reasonable chance of being successful. :)
 
How things change eh? 28/10/20.

Kingfishers images are in the bag and I have 4 locations , 2 of them have worked well. I concentrated on just the one site this year though (2020), well away from where I suspected that particular nest to be. I got multiple flybys here and the odd, distant perched shot. The trail has gone a little cold though at all 4 sites, not many sightings recently, although I'm 100% sure I heard a KF Sunday past.

The original nest site has been active again this year, I visited it Sunday past and there were signs of old activity. This is also where I am certain I heard the KF on Sunday too.


So that's an update, I have photographed KFs on this stretch of river, as well as elsewhere but the lure is still too much, I want to photograph them more. This brings me to my original post here and I am considering applying for a licence to be near the nest site for next year. I don't particularly want to be right at it, despite knowing its exact location, but a reasonable distance away. I'd like to set perches out near the site as it's good, still, clear water, just primed for KF fishing. The reason for applying would be to allow me to be nearer the nest than I would normally dare to be for obvious and varied reasons during the nesting season.

One of the requirements is to record activity and report it back, which I am more than happy to do.

Another requirement is referees, one of which must be a current licence holder. This is a stumbling block as I don't know anybody with one.

I'm not being too expectant, I know they're not given out lightly but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I'm off to make a call. ;)
 
Dale ,any news?..........i've been following you and these kingfisher a while now bro,as you know.( all credit) I'm also deeply interested in the schedule one aspect

All the luck with it mate to me you have done everything to have earned this,my opinion is sadly irrelevent ( what's new huh :LOL: ) Which ever way ya cut it though the care is there the craft and effort to learn is done ,fair play. (y)

stu
 
Just came across this thread but I have seen your photos plenty times. I am interested too in finding out how you are getting along.

I actually know someone local to me with a schedule 1 license. He is a volunteer at the local park and helps in cleaning the up the river that flows through it. Requires care to not destroy the local wildlife inc. kingfishers that have been around for a long long time.
He said it was fairly simple acquiring it if you have supporting documentation all in order. He had the parks national trust folks backing him so I guess it wasn't a huge issue to get it.
 
Stuart Philpott said:
Dale ,any news?..........i've been following you and these kingfisher a while now bro,as you know.( all credit) I'm also deeply interested in the schedule one aspect

All the luck with it mate to me you have done everything to have earned this,my opinion is sadly irrelevent ( what's new huh :LOL: ) Which ever way ya cut it though the care is there the craft and effort to learn is done ,fair play. (y)

stu
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Cheers Stu, thanks for those words. I've started to fill out the forms but I have to get a few things together before I send them away. I'm in no rush but I have communicated with the licensing peeps, who were very helpful. One of my concerns was that one of the referees had to have a Sched 1 themselves and I know nobody with one. Long story short but basically they said they'd weigh up the whole situation and they wouldn't throw the application in the bin because I couldn't meet one of the requirements. I think I can demonstrate my abilities well enough, with images and video, I suppose they will have to decide if my abilities are good enough. Fingers crossed.

I have one referee in place, I'm still looking for another that I know personally. (y)

nandbytes said:
Just came across this thread but I have seen your photos plenty times. I am interested too in finding out how you are getting along.

I actually know someone local to me with a schedule 1 license. He is a volunteer at the local park and helps in cleaning the up the river that flows through it. Requires care to not destroy the local wildlife inc. kingfishers that have been around for a long long time.
He said it was fairly simple acquiring it if you have supporting documentation all in order. He had the parks national trust folks backing him so I guess it wasn't a huge issue to get it.
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It's Scottish National Heritage that issue them here. My perception before I began the process was that a Sched 1 licence was never going to be easy to get and rightly so. As you say though, I think it's more about having everything in order, things like good, reliable referees, proof that you can be close to birds without undue disturbance, (ie they're settled enough to let you take pictures or video of them) and I think demonstrating a good attitude, albeit by paper, goes a long way.

The licence will only apply to one of my sites, I know of 2 regular nesting sites and if I get my licence, it will be site specific. The licensing authority will know exactly where it is, as I have to tell them with a grid reference. I'd also have to report observations from the site too, which I'm more than happy to do.

Hopefully, I'll get things back underway this week, there's a 6 week processing time and I'd like my licence in place well before the 1st March 2021, which will be it's start date, through to the end of September.
 
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Thanks for the above buddy really interesting reading. I'm glad you got started and have made contact..it is so easy to tell your self you aren't worthy and never try.....you me or anyone . Keep us updated Dale ,as above to me you really have tried to do this right.............. all credit (y)
 
The application is away. I've done all I can now. There is a minimum 6 week turnaround so we'll wait and see.

I'm not really expecting to get a licence granted, they are like hen's teeth but at least I've tried now and with nothing to lose, it's worth a try.
 
Dale. said:
The application is away. I've done all I can now. There is a minimum 6 week turnaround so we'll wait and see.

I'm not really expecting to get a licence granted, they are like hen's teeth but at least I've tried now and with nothing to lose, it's worth a try.
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Fingers crossed Dale....at least you've put the effort in and applied.
 
As long as you don't disturb the protected birds you don't need any licence from what I have read.
Quote " You don’t need a licence to survey, film or take photographs of protected birds or animals if you don’t disturb them " unquote

using a long lens is the answer not get up so close that you can stop them even nesting
 
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realspeed said:
Licence to photograph birds? strange, as long as one does not go near or disturb the birds nesting why have a licence, never heard of having to get a licence. Sounds like a bit of big brother /jobs worth and a means to get money from you
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It's for the benefit of the birds to protect them on or near their nest and prevent them from being disturbed. It doesn't require a huge amount of imagination to realise why.
 
It is these people that are more than likely to distrurb the birds just to get a close up photo, Get a long lens instead so you dfon't scare them
 
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realspeed said:
As long as you don't disturb the protected birds you don't need any licence from what I have read.
Quote " You don’t need a licence to survey, film or take photographs of protected birds or animals if you don’t disturb them " unquote

using a long lens is the answer not get up so close that you can stop them even nesting
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DemiLion said:
It's for the benefit of the birds to protect them on or near their nest and prevent them from being disturbed. It doesn't require a huge amount of imagination to realise why.
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realspeed said:
It is these people that are more than likely to distrurb the birds just to get a close up photo, Get a long lens instead so you dfon't scare them
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DemiLion said:
Alternatively - just protect the birds by law. Far simpler.
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Bobsyeruncle said:
Plenty of "these" people will have long lenses and still disturb birds. :(
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The W said:
This is an interesting paper looking at typical disturbance distance for a number of different S1 bird species (although for this thread, Kingfisher isn't one of them)

A Review of Disturbance Distances in Selected Bird Species

A report from Natural Research (Projects) Ltd to NatureScot
www.nature.scot www.nature.scot
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jerry12953 said:
Unfortunately I believe that it's still very easy to disturb nesting birds even if you have a long lens (and even if it is illegal.....)

That's an interesting paper you linked to, Paul. If only the authors spoke plain English!
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All fair points.

I think we can all rest assured though, the licensing process and vetting is very thorough. I won't get a licence unless Nature Scot think I should get one. I'm happy with this, it's rightly so.

If I do get granted, then it is up to me to cause as little disturbance as possible and this will be the case. Even at the best of times, I keep disturbance to the absolute minimum for any species, any time of year.

So many scenarios we could discuss but the 2 key ones I think are distance from the nest and what counts as disturbance.

50 metres is considered to be far enough away, it seems to be the common concensus on this criteria, but what if a KF decides to fly away from its favourite fishing perch a kilometre away from the nest ( they can have territories that extend up to 1.5 km either side of the nest) because somebody walks close by? The KF won't catch fish on this occassion and the little ones will go hungry, for a while at least. The distance thing is very grey.

One section of the application form asks how close do I intend to be to the nest. I have no intention of being right at it. I would like to be within the mentioned 50 metres though. This is because I know the stretch of river well and the area up river from the nest in particular is prime KF fishing water, almost dead calm, with little flow, reasonably deep and with small pools near the bank that fish (minnow, stickleback etc) collect in large numbers. There are no suitable perches though and this is one thing I'd like to change by setting perches for the KFs. To do this though, I'd have to be within the (grey) 50 metres.

What constitutes disturbance? Quite a grey area too. Technically, even if a wild bird (Sched 1 or otherwise) looks at you, you've disturbed it. I think though, disturbance at or near the nest, is more likely to be caused by somebody who is unaware of a nest's location than by somebody who knows the nest is there.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned that getting granted a licence is a 2 way thing. I get to be quite close to the nest ( although, still reasonably distant) but I also have to keep records that are fed back to Scot Nature. I also think I can actually offer some protection to the site. It's quite remote and not easily found, although it's not too far from civilisation. As an example, if there was any unlicensed presence at the site (say an unwitting photographer who isn't aware of Sched 1 protection), I would be expected to report it to Nature Scot, or, have a word. ;)

Sched 1 is extra protection, all wildlife is protected, even the type that can be culled. You either have to be a landowner or have permission to cull permitted species (rabbits, rats, corvids etc) on that land.

As I say though, I'm being realistic, I don't expect to be granted but we'll see. There are in the region of 50 licenses granted each year, for all Sched 1 species, not just KFs, so if I'm going to be one of that 50, I'll be lucky.

:)
 
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jerry12953 said:
I'm with you all the way with your request, mate. You're taking it really seriously, and kingfisher is not one of the rarest of the rare. My guess is that you'll have a good chance. Good luck!
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Cheers, let's wait and see. (y)
 
I've been checking my e-mails for about 2 weeks now for news, I was told, at the initial contact, that it would be 6 weeks or so. It took alittle longer due to another lockdown , but............

I've been granted Sched 1 for the KF nest site.

Now to do their trust in me justice.
 
Dale. said:
I've been checking my e-mails for about 2 weeks now for news, I was told, at the initial contact, that it would be 6 weeks or so. It took alittle longer due to another lockdown , but............

I've been granted Sched 1 for the KF nest site.

Now to do their trust in me justice.
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Well done Dale, look forward to seeing what you do. :)
 
@Dale.

Great news and I look forward to the results of your patience in gaining the License and the ultimate patience that will be needed to get the pictures :)
 
Well done, I am looking forward to seeing what you get.
 
Hearty grats mate :D your backstory and the efforts put in with the kingies, to me ,always gave you a good chance. Really cool seeing all that effort pay off mate and be regarded by the "officials" in a similar way

Good stuff bro inspiring...........as before all credit(y)

take care

stu
 
mex said:
Well done, I am looking forward to seeing what you get.
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Thanks.


Stuart Philpott said:
Hearty grats mate :D your backstory and the efforts put in with the kingies, to me ,always gave you a good chance. Really cool seeing all that effort pay off mate and be regarded by the "officials" in a similar way

Good stuff bro inspiring...........as before all credit(y)

take care

stu
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Thanks Stu, I know you've been rooting for me bud.

The excitement (and shock) has levelled off, still both high but I'm thinking how I'm going to do this now.

It's going to be slow and steady. Obviously, even though the licence runs from today, I can't be there anyway. Once things settle down a bit and we can get out, it really will be softly, softly. I'm not going to just turn up at the site, I will keep my distance at first and just listen, even if that takes hours or even a day or 2. If they're there this year (they have been for the last 3), they'll let me know. To begin with, images will be the last thing on my mind. I know the site quite well but not under nesting conditions as I've only been there during the Autumn and Winter months. I will of course have my camera every time I go but I'm not expecting to take it out of the bag everytime I go, especially initially.

I have to keep records too and submit a report once the licence runs out in September. If I don't do that, I won't get granted again, they made that clear.

So, time to contemplate, which I'm happy to do, I want to do this right.
 
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Yeah I have mate,it's not really cause I think of you as a mate either, :p :LOL: it's the way you have gone about all this there must be 3 or 4 years back story here,ha i'm not sure how long but you've been at this a good while. That's why I'm stoked for ya kiddo, you have done all possible to look out for the subjects and will keep that mantra. As before all credit

You'll do alright bro:), softly softy always gets results with beasties, and you have spades of that patience to work with. If you have time, would you please tell me about the records/report they want you to keep.................... i'm so interested in all this, even though i've not been out much with camera of late, I just can't wait to get at it again.
 
Stuart Philpott said:
Yeah I have mate,it's not really cause I think of you as a mate either, :p :LOL: it's the way you have gone about all this there must be 3 or 4 years back story here,ha i'm not sure how long but you've been at this a good while. That's why I'm stoked for ya kiddo, you have done all possible to look out for the subjects and will keep that mantra. As before all credit

You'll do alright bro:), softly softy always gets results with beasties, and you have spades of that patience to work with. If you have time, would you please tell me about the records/report they want you to keep.................... i'm so interested in all this, even though i've not been out much with camera of late, I just can't wait to get at it again.
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Thanks Stu.

I remember that first walk, I'd been to Alan's the previous week, which I thoroughly enjoyed and would do again. I wanted to do it my way though. That first river walk in search of KFs on this stretch would've been around the 20th January, 2018, as that was the week after I'd been to Alan's. So from that stage to this, just over 3 years.

They've not asked for specific records as such, maybe they will closer to when the licence runs out. They have said I have to report 'any work carried out at the site' which will probably be zero in this case, I have no intention of changing the habitat. I will be recording times/dates that I'm there, how many times the KFs nest, if broods are succesful or not and when/if chicks fledge, how many visits per hour by the parents when there are chicks in the nest, types of fish or food etc etc. That's what I'll be aiming for.

For now, I'll be staying home though, I can legally from a licence point of view be at the nest site as of yesterday but we're locked down of course. They paired up early last year, about now infact, or maybe just a little later, which is when I retreated and stayed away. I never went back to this pair last year, focusing instead on another pair further downriver as we came out of that lockdown. I got a few images of that pair but nothing I'd really show off, although I must've seen them hundreds of times flying by, I never managed to nail their fishing spots.


:)
 
thanks again Dale , sorry slow non stop at the mo . It's funny I 'm busier locked down than grafting. :banghead: Bloody hard chippying out side mate it's so damn cold. It's brutal !! It's hard enough for me dressed in good warm gear, I really feel for our birds and beasties right now, it's so damn hard for 'em !!


Which brings me back to your kingies I just hope the rivers aren't frozen up there. I believe kingfisher mortality is really high in their first year anyway. I've half a hunch we talked about that and how well the birds on your mates river do because of the food used at the hide which can be of concern to some folks. To me they all need any help we can give them at the mo.. Mate I'm not implying you'll use food at all, it's just so tough right now it makes one think:(

We have birds starting to court but I wonder if this cold spell will set breeding back this year, which might work in your favour. It can't be easy getting your shed 1 and then being locked up, I feel for ya, but at the mo most of me just feels for our wildlife.

Dale cheers on the notes...................... I wonder if a couple of those clicker things might be of use, to record visits? maybe not, just musing

take care
 
Stuart Philpott said:
thanks again Dale , sorry slow non stop at the mo . It's funny I 'm busier locked down than grafting. :banghead: Bloody hard chippying out side mate it's so damn cold. It's brutal !! It's hard enough for me dressed in good warm gear, I really feel for our birds and beasties right now, it's so damn hard for 'em !!


Which brings me back to your kingies I just hope the rivers aren't frozen up there. I believe kingfisher mortality is really high in their first year anyway. I've half a hunch we talked about that and how well the birds on your mates river do because of the food used at the hide which can be of concern to some folks. To me they all need any help we can give them at the mo.. Mate I'm not implying you'll use food at all, it's just so tough right now it makes one think:(

We have birds starting to court but I wonder if this cold spell will set breeding back this year, which might work in your favour. It can't be easy getting your shed 1 and then being locked up, I feel for ya, but at the mo most of me just feels for our wildlife.

Dale cheers on the notes...................... I wonder if a couple of those clicker things might be of use, to record visits? maybe not, just musing

take care
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The same river, which flows past our house is very much flowing at the moment, even the quieter spots. It's frustrating though, as my licence kicked in on the 1st of February and I can't even go and check the site. If I could just go and listen, for now, that would make me happy just to hear a KF there, flying by or perched. At least it should start warming up soon, enough to make the difference and hopefully, lockdown will have eased a bit by then too.

I'm quite content though, knowing that stretch of river quite well, that any KF there should be able to fish as I've never seen it frozen (partially yes), not even the quiet spots. It's such a diverse habitat there too which should be able to provide some sustenance for any KF there. I really don't know for sure though and this time of year is when most KFs perish, it's worrying. My last visit there late last year did provide the 'peep peep' of a KF, so there was 1 there not long before Christmas. This is the tough time right now though.

I watched a video on YouTube not long ago. It was a guy photographing KFs and he set up a waterproof, floating box, with a perch above it and caught some minnows and put them in the box. That's how he was getting his KF pics. I'm not sure on the ethics of it though, if providing a meal helps, then I'm all for it but it's the disturbance and changing the habitat by putting a bucket and perch there that worries me. That said, I did mention to the Licensing people that I would be putting 2 or 3perches out on the still water for KFs to perch on and dive into the river. They seemed happy enough with that, so I will go with that. I will let them fish naturally though, above still pools where minnows and fish fry congregate. It's quite an easy river to read, so the perches will go above likely spots. At times, you can actually see shoals of small fish.

Early days yet, I have a lot to learn but I'm in no rush, happy to wait another 3 years if that's what it takes. (y) I am hoping for more success this year though than last but I'll let the KFs dictate that.

I'd never considered a clicker, intention was pencil and paper, for notes and counting.

Keep warm out there Bud.

:)
 
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Well, safe to say, I think it's over for this year.

It wasn't easy, despite being licenced as I still only observed at the nest, for my returns to the licensing authority which is a licence requirement by law.

At the begining, I was wondering what I had let myself in for, a licence doesn't guarantee sightings, as I found out. I also had a healthy respect for the immediate nesting spot, I wouldn't disturb directly at it just for the sake of an image.

The early days were frustrating, I saw the kingfishers, I knew the exact burrow(seperate ones for each brood) entrance they were using but I'd always aimed to get images a respectful distance away. Some may say, why did I get licenced? Whilst it allowed me to be at the nest, it didn't sit right changing the immediate area in any way and I didn't. It also didn't sit right outstaying my welcome. I did though manage images close by, at about 30 metres and at times, further away. The (speculative) guidance is 100 metres away from the nest for an unlicenced person, so my licence allowed me to be well within that but I was still able to respect a self imposed limit for photography.

In the end, I managed well over 300 images all told and a few videos. Some I'd show off, some I definately wouldn't.

As for the kingfishers themselves. There were 2 broods, both fledged, the first brood with 4 youngsters, the second I wasn't sure of but for both broods, 2 fledglings from each were still surviving in the area upto 3 weeks after fledging and feeding themselves. Both survivors from each brood were male and female.

The first brood seemed to be straightforward, with no problems I was aware of. The second brood though was a mystery. I am almost certain that it was just one adult that was doing the feeding, there just weren't enough visits per hour with fish for it to be 2 adults. During the sensitive feeding of young stage, I wasn't able to sex the adults as I kept my time at the nest to a minimum but I could observe from a distance and there were a maximum of 6 visits per hour by the a/the adult/s. That's just not enough in my book for 2 adults and I know that river is crawling with fish. At the distance I was keeping, I couldn't see the adult beaks to sex them. My fear is, one adult has perished somehow ( there are peregrine, sparrowhawk and mink in the area), so who knows?

All in all, I think it was a success though, bearing in mind how tough nature can be. At least 4 youngsters have survived and now probably dispersed. I have sighted and heared kingfisher a few miles away in just the last few days on the river, both up and downstream.

It was frustrating at times, it was challenging and despite the licence, not easy. I often asked myself why I was doing it.

Would I do it again? Hell yeah and I will be. Here's to 2022.
 
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I think we all ask our self why we do this Dale sometimes with me personally it's just my sheer inability with a camera in my hand sometimes it's the endless trauma of not getting that special chance, we all crave and graft our sox of for Mainly though it's my and epic fails I've outdone me recently will share elsewhere once it get's easier!!:banghead:

But for me that all stacks up to why we do all this and why we keep going back.

Trying to make something in a wildlife image that not only lifts your heart but speaks to others is incredibly hard Dale, tying to do that with all the physcological stuff implied by a schedule 1 species is even harder for me. The rules............... not over stepping the mark would effect me mate,get in the way of what I know and do. I've huge respect for you on all this bro ha ya know that. :p

As always mate go back next year............. more knowledge more time in the field will always put you in a better place you will make more frames you will be better armed as to how your specific subject will react these are the givens of hours and hours in the field failing bro.

This is the slow road it ain't easy mate and I deeply question the sanity of those of us who do this God mate......... there is so much to make a piccy of mate just so much, why on earth would one focus so much on just a few............

that's the bit I can't find words for Dale you can't explain to me the joy of a kingy kidlet sat yards from ya completely trusting no more than I what a baby hare means to me doing the same but I think wrapped up in that is the why, articulating it though i'm at a loss

the dream is though that one day we you I make a frame that somehow says that to an onlooker

Ha the most difficult of years and some buddy OMG AND SOME !!

take care my friend and all the ruddy luck in the world for next time

if ya never give up ya always have hope;)

bring it ( the hell ) on:cool:

stu

PS cheers for all this mate whole shebang is deeply inspiring to me and I guess many others, can I go back to having a crack with ya now bro:LOL:
 
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