School sercurity

rjbell

rjbell

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Yet another shooting in a school. This horrendous trend seems to be getting worse and worse. Is it time to for better security? Couldn't they have bullet proof doors to the class rooms that can only open with a key from the outside but opens normally from the inside of the room? Or maybe panic rooms?
 
Speaking from the UK standpoint, security is not a primary consideration and budgets are small with many demands. Nowhere near enough money is available to even scratch the surface of adequate security measures.
 
what?

there are so many other threads about this..

Basically each nutter wants to out-do the previous nutter...

rewrite the amendment..
 
Lynton said:
what?

there are so many other threads about this..

Basically each nutter wants to out-do the previous nutter...

rewrite the amendment..
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Sadly, neeeever gonna happen.
 
Lynton said:
what?

there are so many other threads about this..

Basically each nutter wants to out-do the previous nutter...

rewrite the amendment..
Click to expand...

Well there was one other thread and thats closed.

They're never going to rewrite the amendment, but this will not stop nutters going into schools with machetes, chainsaw, acid, petrol or whatever other horrible thing they can think of. Its has to be down to school security and that sadly comes down to money and the lack of it.
 
its impossiblecto stop this type of stuff, if you want to kill a boat load of people then there is nothing to stop you.....
 
Only having one main entrance with intercom would be a start that would not cost huge amounts. Every other government building has this sort of thing why not the schools.
 
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Average UK school design opens onto probably 2 or more roads, has easy access between classrooms to facilitate pupil movement and probably faces onto open playing field/playground with further doors to classrooms.
Though they may feel like it to some pupils, schools were never designed to be secure areas/prisons.
 
gramps said:
Average UK school design opens onto probably 2 or more roads, has easy access between classrooms to facilitate pupil movement and probably faces onto open playing field/playground with further doors to classrooms.
Though they may feel like it to some pupils, schools were never designed to be secure areas/prisons.
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Agreed, and making it 'safer' might even make it more difficult to escape in the unlikely event something like that were to happen in this country...
 
The actual answer is to arm the teachers until the US sorts out it's ridiculous weapon's laws.

All the security in the world (well the affordable type, anyway) will not stop a gunman getting into a school, especially if they've pre-determined that they are going to die themselves.

Arming school staff won't stop random killings, but it may reduce the volume of them. It would also bring home how utterly stupid the whatever-it-is amendment has become.
 
The alarming frequency that tragic events such as these occur in the US can surely only suggest two things:

Option 1: There's a huge legal problem that allows the wrong type of people to have access to guns.

Option 2: There's a more serious and deep-rooted societal problem that leads people to carry out these horrible acts.

I for one am surprised that Americans aren't chomping at the bit to blame the gun laws, in order to deny the fact there might actually be a much more worrying problem with their society. The very fact that they think there's nothing wrong with everyone being entitled to bear arms is surely a pretty damning indictment that there are other factors at play in their culture that generates these barbaric acts.
 
DemiLion said:
The actual answer is to arm the teachers until the US sorts out it's ridiculous weapon's laws.

All the security in the world (well the affordable type, anyway) will not stop a gunman getting into a school, especially if they've pre-determined that they are going to die themselves.

Arming school staff won't stop random killings, but it may reduce the volume of them. It would also bring home how utterly stupid the whatever-it-is amendment has become.
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Arming teachers would be a terrible idea.
 
Although gun laws in the US a ridiculous things like this can happen anywhere. The Raoul Moat incident wasn't very long rime ago. This could have been a school and with have very strict gun laws.

Does every classroom need to have a fire escape? If not maybe that would be something to think about if a classroom door can only be opened from the inside and the have a fire escape the have a fighting chance of getting out. Not do mention the more likely thread of a fire you have improved safety there also.
 
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TriggerHappy said:
I for one am surprised that Americans aren't chomping at the bit to blame the gun laws, in order to deny the fact there might actually be a much more worrying problem with their society.
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I'm not surprised at all. Thier right to bear arms is such a fundamental and deeply ingrained right for them as a nation, that I wouldn't be surprised if eventually some of the berieved parents will still advocate that very right.
 
seems a bit extreme, why not just demolish all schools and build them to the plans from broadmoor.

schools are relatively safe (certainly given the massive footfall of people that need to move around them quickly, safely and efficiently)

isnt the issue with those of a fragile and dangerous mental state getting access to guns before they get access to proper medical/psychological treatment, rather than redesigning schools so that they are highly secure miserable grim places that to the students feel like concentration camps rather than places to learn and achieve? (im aware some schools are like that anyway).,

ive worked in a number of schools where they have some sort of security measure, for example you cannot get any further than reception without being "allowed in" and all but the main entrance is closed during school hours, a system designed to keep a wriggle on who is coming and going rather than keep the place on lockdown.

If someone wants to get in to anywhere bad enough they'll manage it.
 
rjbell said:
Yet another shooting in a school. This horrendous trend seems to be getting worse and worse. Is it time to for better security? Couldn't they have bullet proof doors to the class rooms that can only open with a key from the outside but opens normally from the inside of the room? Or maybe panic rooms?
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Pointless. All someone needs to do us then turn up at opening or closing or break times and shoot them. Total over reaction.
 
whitewash said:
seems a bit extreme, why not just demolish all schools and build them to the plans from broadmoor.

schools are relatively safe (certainly given the massive footfall of people that need to move around them quickly, safely and efficiently)

isnt the issue with those of a fragile and dangerous mental state getting access to guns before they get access to proper medical/psychological treatment, rather than redesigning schools so that they are highly secure miserable grim places that to the students feel like concentration camps rather than places to learn and achieve? (im aware some schools are like that anyway).,

ive worked in a number of schools where they have some sort of security measure, for example you cannot get any further than reception without being "allowed in" and all but the main entrance is closed during school hours, a system designed to keep a wriggle on who is coming and going rather than keep the place on lockdown.

.
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Yes the measures in your second paragraph is the sort of thing i'm talking about not knocking down schools? Simple measures that lots of building like hospitals council building etc.. have implemented do they feel like prisons? This problem isn't specific to guns and would happen with or without guns. Its happened on our shores and likely it will happen again.
 
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cambsno said:
Pointless. All someone needs to do us then turn up at opening or closing or break times and shoot them. Total over reaction.
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At least there not sitting ducks. They would do that now though wouldn't they but they don't. why does any goverment building have secruity if someone could just shoot them when they leave at the end of the day.
 
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DemiLion said:
The actual answer is to arm the teachers until the US sorts out it's ridiculous weapon's laws.
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Teachers routinely carrying guns on their person in a classroom full of kids (and teenagers full of hormones) is really going to go well, isn't it?

If you keep a pistol in a securely locked cabinet, then it's not going to be easily accessible when you're surprised by a mass murderer with an automatic rifle. And who is going to get shot first, anyhow?
 
My elder daughters 1st secondary school was 'locked down' in effect. They had a huge truancy problem that had been going on for years, so a lot of money was invested ring fencing the entire school with 9ft high rigid wire fence, with the 45 degree inward facing top 2ft that made climbing out very difficult [not impossible, but hard work and more likely to be spotted even across the playing fields] The main gates were controlled by intercom from reception that had both a direct view of the gate from the window, and a camera for a closer view. The doors to outside could not be locked during lesson times for H&S reasons, but they were all controlled by electronic switches and alarmed, and any that were not opened using a legitimate swipe card [staff only] during lessons times were monitored - ditto fire escape only doors. This cost a LOT of money, for one school, but did slash the truancy rate back down to a 'normal' level - most were casual truants doing it just because they could. I cannot recall the figures, but it was expensive, just applying similar measures across the UK would be prohibitively expensive - in the US the bill would rival the space program! As already mentioned, nothing will stop your out and out psycho getting in, so seems a pointless exersize.
 
I have to agree that if someone is 100% set on causing utter destruction, there's not a lot that you will be able to do to stop them. Let's face it, the 911 planes were bought down using pretty much nothing but plastic box cutters and sheer force of intention.

There is little defence against extreme intent of any kind.
 
viv1969 said:
I have to agree that if someone is 100% set on causing utter destruction, there's not a lot that you will be able to do to stop them. Let's face it, the 911 planes were bought down using pretty much nothing but plastic box cutters and sheer force of intention.

There is little defence against extreme intent of any kind.
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Yes but does that mean you don't do anything? Why do planes bother checking for guns and bombs then? It would definatly slow someone down enough to reduce the death tolls.
 
rjbell said:
Yes but does that mean you don't do anything? Why do planes bother checking for guns and bombs then? It would definatly slow someone down enough to reduce the death tolls.
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college security guards carry side arms in some states in the USA so I've heard.
 
rjbell said:
Yes but does that mean you don't do anything? Why do planes bother checking for guns and bombs then? It would definatly slow someone down enough to reduce the death tolls.
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No, I never said that you do nothing. Just that no matter what you do you will never prevent a real extemist from doing what they set out to do.
 
More students / teachers are killed each year on the way to School than by the Nutters

It's the same with the "Terrorist Threat", we are so panicky about "bad things" that our freedom/quality of life is getting destroyed. Do we really want every school/hospital etc policed like a Prison/Military base ?




*NOTE this is in no way bellittling the tragedy in the US
 
rjbell said:
Yet another shooting in a school. This horrendous trend seems to be getting worse and worse. Is it time to for better security?
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according to a wikipedia article (yes i know) the last school shooting in the UK was dunblaine in 1996, so is this problem getting any worse in the UK? or is this a massive overreaction based on tragic events in another country with completely a different culture to firearms and medical treatment.
 
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My secondary school and sixth form had a 7 foot fence put up around the entire perimeter of the school (but not the 6th form blocks, which were situated on the far side of the shared playing fields) when I was in year 13 (final year of sixth form). The purpose of it was was never explained. The gates were never closed because some 6th form lessons were done in the lower school building and nor were the gates on the driveway which ran past the main secondary school building, so it definitely didn't serve the purpose of keeping secondary school kids in or others out. There were 4 gateways open at all times during school hours. Oddly, they didn't particularly appreciate us playing football against it so we didn't have to run and fetch the ball as often either :wacky: I assumed they must have had some type of single-use grant that they either spent on the fencing or didn't get at all. Perhaps it just secured the school premises over night.
 
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DemiLion said:
The actual answer is to arm the teachers until the US sorts out it's ridiculous weapon's laws.
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Quite, and as sad as it may seem to have to arm teachers, in the short term, its the only answer, at least to reducing the number of deaths in one incident.


Long term, its tighter gun control. The right to bear arms should not include the sort of firepower suitable for a small army.
 
whitewash said:
according to a wikipedia article (yes i know) the last school shooting in the UK was dunblaine in 1996, so is this problem getting any worse in the UK? or is this a massive overreaction based on tragic events in another country with completely a different culture to firearms and medical treatment.
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I wasn't speaking about UK specially.
 
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Yes, change the gun laws - because we all know that criminals and those of a less than stable mind follow the law to the letter.

The availability of firearms here, and the amount of firearms in circulation is too far gone for changing the laws. We'll end up with a bunch of armed criminals and no way to protect ourselves.

The complete dis-armament works in countries like the UK, because it was relatively difficult to buy firearms in the first place, so the majority of criminals didn't have access to them anyway. Those that did - almost certainly STILL HAVE THEM.

Oh - and while we're on the subject - you think China is going to ban knives :thinking: http://times247.com/articles/22-wounded-in-chinese-school-stabbing
 
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As Outlore pointed out, there's so many guns in circulation now in the US that even an immediate ban and an amnesty wouldn't be sufficient to stifle the supply to those willing to break the law. That's not to say that the general availability of weapons, and the types of weapons allowed to be legally held, doesn't greatly exacerbate a pre-existing problem.

Of course knives, baseball bats and a piece of string can all be used to take someone's life, but none are as effortless and provide the option to commit the crime from a distance. You can also make the case that they have an everyday function for everybody, whereas guns are of a more limited function to fewer.

Then there's the issue of what was meant by the 2nd amendment, and whether it has any function within modern society. As I understand it, it was to allow militia forces to be able to fight and overthrow government, should their leadership go awry. Even if that's still a legitimate concern - and I'd question whether it was considering how far democracy has come - then are a few pistols and rifles sufficient to overthrow a government with such an advanced and powerful military? I hardly think so!
 
TriggerHappy said:
Then there's the issue of what was meant by the 2nd amendment, and whether it has any function within modern society. As I understand it, it was to allow militia forces to be able to fight and overthrow government, should their leadership go awry. Even if that's still a legitimate concern - and I'd question whether it was considering how far democracy has come - then are a few pistols and rifles sufficient to overthrow a government with such an advanced and powerful military? I hardly think so!
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You would be surprised though. Look at the trouble we've had in the far east with some similarly equipped people.

Someone sent me a link the other day about previous governments who had disarmed their civilians, who once disarmed were then murdered by the millions by the governments.
 
OutLore said:
Yeah - that makes it ok.:LOL:
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Of course not, but I'd rather be visiting my child in hospital than burying their body, wouldn't you?


Dont get me wrong, you raise a good point about the U.S. having gone too far with gun ownership to reverse the tide, but seriously, allowing anybody with ID to go into a store and buy a semi automatic weapon :shrug:
 
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