Scrap your lenses! They won't work on new breed of cameras!!!

[HoppyUK]

Your current lenses will not work on the next generation of cameras, which are just around the corner, like the Panasonic GH1 which will be out in a few months!

There's a very significant interview with Panasonic on DPReview, concerning the implications of the new GH1 camera, and its on-board image processing. This camera needs completely new lenses, and so will all others like it that will surely follow from every manufacturer. Interview is here:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0903/09031901panasonicinterview.asp

The bit I picked up on is the in-camera processing of images, both Raws and JPEGs, where lens aberrations are corrected digitally rather than just optically.

This has massive implications for the next generation of cameras. It's all good news of course, except that your current lenses won't work properly, if at all What's for sure is that they will not be able to take full advantage of the new technology. See what your think from this quote:

DPR - There's been some controversy on the whole subject of in-camera lens correction and the fact that Panasonic makes it very difficult to override, even in raw mode, even when using third-party converters such as Adobe Camera Raw. We wanted to know if there had been a fundamental shift in lens design, away from purely optical correction of aberrations.

Your approach to lens design appears to have changed; there's now an element of digital correction built into the design. Do you consider the future of lens design to be partly optical and partly digital (using in-camera corrections)? And are there any compromises involved in digital aberration correction?

Panasonic - "Without the technology we've developed to allow digital lens corrections we simply couldn't make such lenses. In order to minimize the size and in order to maximize the performance of the lens we choose to use this technology. It's a digital camera, so it makes sense."

We agree completely, we don't think it's an issue at all how you get the performance you want as long as the results are good, but to many purists this is hard to swallow. So when you're designing a lens now you're designing it partly optically and partly digitally?

"Yes. Of course we work closely with the lens engineers. But Leica doesn't allow us to use digital corrections, so that's why there are no Leica lenses for the Micro G system. But of course, we have a plan with Leica as part of the roadmap."

So does the camera need a database of lens corrections? Does it need a firmware update every time a new lens is released?

"No, the lens has some information which it sends to the camera."

What about third-party lens manufacturers? Will they be able to use the same mechanism to tell the camera to apply corrections to their lenses?

"Yes, members of the Four Thirds consortium can."

So do you know if there will actually be any third-party lenses for Micro Four Thirds system?

"I think not in the near future. First will be Olympus and Panasonic."

I guess they're going to wait and see how well the system does; this isn't just a new lens mount for them; they have to design a completely new lens.

"Indeed."

 

[Voyager]

Your current lenses will not work on the next generation of cameras, which are just around the corner, like the Panasonic GH1 which will be out in a few months!

:shrug: In the same way you don't buy a Canon expecting your Nikon lenses to fit?

The bit I picked up on is the in-camera processing of images, both Raws and JPEGs, where lens aberrations are corrected digitally rather than just optically.

Is this not already the case with the LX3/D-LUX 4 - use third party RAW converters and the lens aberration is uncorrected?

 

[coldpenguin]

Sounds like a gimmick.

Pan> We are going to make cheap lenses which curve the edges of the pictures presented on the sensor
Pan> Then we are going to read a fudge factor off the lens, and if it seems to be about right, morph the picture back into a bird before we write it to the memory card



Now, if you can get a lens to fit (sure there will be some adapters out soon), which doesn't have the fudge factor, then the raws will have to be kept raw.

Surely all this helps is those people who enter Village Competitions where you are not allowed to manipulate your photos on the computer?

 

[MJ Stebbings]

It will never catch on

 

[Teshi]

Ill keep my 5D and 1D with lenses and repair myself if it comes to that.

Im not building up a gear list all over again!

 

[StewartR]

This camera needs completely new lenses, and so will all others like it that will surely follow from every manufacturer.

"Surely"? Why?

Canon bet their entire photographic business on the FD-to-EF switch in 1987 and they got away with it, just. But the stakes are 10 times higher now. It's not obvious to me why the mainstream manufacturers would want to go down this route.

Pray explain.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

It's just for 4/3 stuff anyway, the format'll die before we need to worry about scrapping our lenses

 

[fletch5]

it would be disasterous for canon to do that, the only thing keeping most pros linked to the system is the cost of the lenses they own. i would be really surprised if the top three(canon/nikon/sony) would even consider doing it

 

[AlistairW]

"Scrap your lenses!!!"

I assume you tongue is in your cheek here. Maybe the topic should have been headed "Don't panic Captain Mainwairing!" (with apologies to those under 45 who probably don't get the reference).

My uncle has an Olympus OM10 and his lenses still seem to be working fine for him. I'm pretty sure the lenses I have for my Canon 40D will still work on it after Panasonic change the world as we know it - and I don't think my pictures will be any worse or better.

I suspect it might be a while yet before the revolution comrades!

Alistair

PS - Or to mix my metaphors even more, it's always possible I'm like Michael Fish telling us all not to worry, of course there isn't going to be a storm (apologies again to younger readers).

 

[odd jim]

Cant see this happening. If it does it will only effect the Panasonic brigade, this seems very gimmicky. Lets fact it, most decent photographers want their cameras to do nothing other than capture the light going through the lens, nothing more. The rest is up to them!

 

[oldfella]

It`s all the marketing ploy.
When the market gets oversaturated it`s time to move up a notch.
Tv, audio recording,
Do not buy anything, then when you die, leave all your money to the greedy relatives.

 

[puddleduck]

This broadcast was brought to you by HoppyUK, he of the "full frame is better as it has more pixels" fame

Say no more

 

[Richard King]

The system is optically and philisophically unsound. Why optically distort something and then re-build it digitally. We all know what happens to resoloution as we apply different algorythms to reducing and increasing image size in photoshop Essentially, they are re-sizing the edges of the images, to compensate for a deliberate Fxxx up in the lens optics

Creating lens optics lighter, thinner, smaller, flatter is a stupid idea if it comprimises on quality. Period

My second profound comment is this:

Give us a camera that is simple and shoots great images. Not a camera with a video recorder, a phone, a GPS tracking device, a bluetooth connection, face detection and a poncy menu system that has the really useful things we need to adjust hidden behind a myriad of stupid functions

 

[Radiohead]

Sensationalist toss.

IMHO naturally.

 

[SuperCNJ]

I honestly can't see this taking over but I can for full-frame.

 

[rgrebby]

I admit I dont know much about camera companies, but Panasonic isnt rated high in my list of professional camera companies.

So why would they dictate what the rest of the world should do?

 

[Richard King]

I admit I dont know much about camera companies, but Panasonic isnt rated high in my list of professional camera companies.

So why would they dictate what the rest of the world should do?

because unfortunatally - SONY for example has a sensor chip that is in nearly everything

OIf the OEM manufacturers for the sensors decide something, the rest of the field plays catch up

 

[bradleysmith]

It's just for 4/3 stuff anyway, the format'll die before we need to worry about scrapping our lenses

They've already decided that the 4/3rds mount was too big and now we have a micro 4/3rds requiring an adapter to.... oh you get the idea.

 

[susie]

Think I will stick to Canon, and I imagine Nikon/Olympus/Other users will stick to what they have as well for a fair while, so I doubt it will affect too many people in the near future!

 

[Denisw]

They will be landing a man on the moon next!

 

[arclight]

Cannot see how Panasonic carry the clout to lead the camera world in that direction, esp. Nikon & Canon.
Trying to talk themselves up by the sound of it.

 

[HoppyUK]

Haha! Blimey, you lot are already in denial, and you've not even seen the new products yet! LOL But like it or not, you will.

The good news is that your current camera will continue to operate just as well as it ever did. So don't panic.

The less good news is that if you want to take advantage of new technology, then you will need both a new camera and new lenses to get it. This technology will deliver better pictures, with more lens potential, in a wider variety of conditions, in a smaller and cheaper package, than would otherwise be possible.

You cannot say that Canon and Nikon will not follow suit, or maybe even lead with a parallel range of their own. Canon is already using similar technology extensively in its post-processing DPP software, and some Nikon DSLRs already have on-board JPEG correction for CA and vignetting. Top end compacts are also full of it. Now. Though manufacturers are tight lipped about it - no doubt fearing a backlash like this - many of us are already using some of this technology without realising it.

Panasonic is just taking the same principle a step further by building it into the camera, and while they're at it, they are going the whole hog and designing for the first time, a camera and lens system optimised for digital imaging. All other DSLRs are just film cameras with film-based lenses, using a digital sensor. Panasonic is advantaged in that it doesn't have a huge range of heritage products and consumers to service. But if Canon and Nikon don't follow this new opportunity, in ten years time they won't be selling much new product either.

I wouldn't worry about that so much though, as they will either integrate the new stuff incrementally so as not to alienate existing users, or they will (most likely IMHO) introduce a parallel range of new cameras and lenses.

And I will put money on this. These new cameras and lenses will be sensational. Give it five years and you will be amazed. And in ten years time we will all be using them

 

[HoppyUK]

This broadcast was brought to you by HoppyUK, he of the "full frame is better as it has more pixels" fame

Say no more

LOL Pudders, you have a short memory I have never said that, for the simple reason that I don't believe more pixels is necessarily better. But I will say that "full frame is better because it is physically larger".

 

[Uneducated_Rick]

A few years ago the four-thrids system was "sensational" and its not overly affected canon and nikon, nor did they "introduce a parallel range of new cameras and lenses"

I'm not going to hold my breath

 

[Radiohead]

Haha! Blimey, you lot are already in denial, and you've not even seen the new products yet! LOL But like it or not, you will.

The good news is that your current camera will continue to operate just as well as it ever did. So don't panic.

The less good news is that if you want to take advantage of new technology, then you will need both a new camera and new lenses to get it. This technology will deliver better pictures, with more lens potential, in a wider variety of conditions, in a smaller and cheaper package, than would otherwise be possible.

You cannot say that Canon and Nikon will not follow suit, or maybe even lead with a parallel range of their own. Canon is already using similar technology extensively in its post-processing DPP software, and some Nikon DSLRs already have on-board JPEG correction for CA and vignetting. Top end compacts are also full of it. Now. Though manufacturers are tight lipped about it - no doubt fearing a backlash like this - many of us are already using some of this technology without realising it.

Panasonic is just taking the same principle a step further by building it into the camera, and while they're at it, they are going the whole hog and designing for the first time, a camera and lens system optimised for digital imaging. All other DSLRs are just film cameras with film-based lenses, using a digital sensor. Panasonic is advantaged in that it doesn't have a huge range of heritage products and consumers to service. But if Canon and Nikon don't follow this new opportunity, in ten years time they won't be selling much new product either.

I wouldn't worry about that so much though, as they will either integrate the new stuff incrementally so as not to alienate existing users, or they will (most likely IMHO) introduce a parallel range of new cameras and lenses.

And I will put money on this. These new cameras and lenses will be sensational. Give it five years and you will be amazed. And in ten years time we will all be using them

Oh noes, the sky is falling. You're the visionary and we're in denial.

 

[Techno-Geek]

Panasonic? I've only ever heard of them making little cameras and TV's

With the GH1, shooting incredible photos is only part of the fun. You can also shoot beautiful, richly detailed movies in full HD (high-definition) (1920 × 1080) at 24 frames per second, or smooth HD (1280 × 720)

Ok Mr Panasonic, Why should i spend my money on your cameras when i can go out and buy a proper HD Camcorder for filming? I've got my Canon 400D thank you very much and soon to be a 1D MkIII so narr.

Much better photos? ok so when someone goes and buy's this camera, put it next to one of Petemc's photos. There seriously won't be any contest.

Maybe this camera is alright for people that use there camera in Auto? i am not sure?

I know i know, typical Canon owner speaking but you just have to laugh don't you?

I love Canon, bye Pana

 

[fletch5]

i cant see how changing all the current lineup of lenses will help

most people dont seem to have a problem getting good pictures on there cameras. i do believe htese things might integrateinto the lenses and bodies, but i would be very suprised if canon or nikon or sony would consider changing mounts, there is nothing wrong with current lenses but i must be blinkered:shrug:

to be truthful, i cant see why a dedicated system is needed for digital, the "film" versions seems to be working fine.
what is in this system that needs new lens mounts and what is so good about it???

 

[seriousrikk]

I don't see how this would render my current lenses useless, surely this is aimed at new lens designs only? :shrug:
If it is digitally adjusted then the digital adjustment could just look at the lens attached and say 'Oh, that one is optically OK, I'll do nothing then'

 

[Techno-Geek]

i cant see how changing all the current lineup of lenses will help

most people dont seem to have a problem getting good pictures on there cameras. i do believe htese things might integrateinto the lenses and bodies, but i would be very suprised if canon or nikon or sony would consider changing mounts, there is nothing wrong with current lenses but i must be blinkered:shrug:

to be truthful, i cant see why a dedicated system is needed for digital, the "film" versions seems to be working fine.
what is in this system that needs new lens mounts and what is so good about it???

I don't think im "most people"

 

[fletch5]

I don't think im "most people"

lol, ok, neither am i in truth, but it not an equipment fault, it more user error

 

[HoppyUK]

A few years ago the four-thrids system was "sensational" and its not overly affected canon and nikon, nor did they "introduce a parallel range of new cameras and lenses"

I'm not going to hold my breath

There was never anything sensational about the 4/3rds system. It's just smaller.

Are you sure you're not already using aspects of digital image enhancement? If you're not then I'm amazed (it's actually very hard not to) and there is nothing different here in principle to that.

 

[HoppyUK]

Oh noes, the sky is falling. You're the visionary and we're in denial.

I'm no visionary, just relaying the news and commenting on it. And yes, you are in denial - this is already happening, with Canon and Nikon too. I didn't make it up.

It's marketing that is driving it - manufacturers need to sell new kit to new customers. Frankly, they're not too bothered about making our current oufits obsolete, any more than they are about supporting film users nowadays.

 

[Radiohead]

No, what you actually did was leap on a PR puff piece, laud it as the second coming and laugh at anyone a little more cautious.

You then go further to say, with NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER, that the whole thing will be sensational.

Odd indeed.

 

[fletch5]

so all the old lenses are fine as the technology is already incorporated into the system why wont they work then???

 

[Duncan J Murray]

There is some truth, and some not-so-true in the post.

Lens design needs to be a compromise of many factors : price, weight, distortion, chromatic aberration, sharpness, vignetting to list the mains problems. You can optimise it for particular qualities, as long as you are happy to sacrifice the other qualities. I guess what Panasonic are suggesting is that the lens is optimised for, say, sharpness and CA, but with unacceptable distortion or vignetting. The digital processing would then correct this.

However, the digital processing will certainly lose image quality by either discarding pixels or by stretching pixels thinly. To correct for vignetting will increase noise levels.

New lenses? Well this shouldn't require new lenses - a lens that works well will just require less work to be done by the digital processor.

It may be true that they will be able to produce cheap, light, super-zooms with no distortion and high sharpness/resolution using this method - I honestly don't know enough about what compromises need to be made in order for this to be possible. It is possible that the digital manipulation degrades image quality so much that there's no advantage, but I assume that the panasonic people are on to this, or they wouldn't be pursuing it.

Micro 4/3rd's has the same sensor size as 4/3rds (correct me if I'm wrong), but has a short lens flange to sensor distance (due to a lack of reflex mirror). I wonder if this will be the way forward - we only use the mirror for the viewfinder, and it seems with live view there is a shift to not using the finder. The advantage is that, in theory, wide-angle lenses can be designed in the way range finder lenses are (i.e. are very close to the sensor), which allows for smaller, cheaper, better wideangles. Your current lenses would be compatible with the new system using an adaptor, but the new lenses would not be compatible with your current SLR.

If anything, I possibly see a lens mount and sensor system which does away with the reflex mirror becoming the future standard. I don't think good all-round lens design can be replaced for high-end imaging.

Duncan.

 

[dalex_257]

The less good news is that if you want to take advantage of new technology, then you will need both a new camera and new lenses to get it. This technology will deliver better pictures, with more lens potential, in a wider variety of conditions, in a smaller and cheaper package, than would otherwise be possible.

Sounds oddly familiar... Wait a moment, this does exist already, plenty of them available from variety of manufacturers - it's called a P&S camera...

You cannot say that Canon and Nikon will not follow suit, or maybe even lead with a parallel range of their own.

Neither can you I'm afraid - unless you are a prophet...

Seriously though, I find your post a bit over-excited. Similar things were said all the time since early 30s about view cameras. But look - they still here and they still provide best quality photos available today in a hands of skilled photographer.

 

[HoppyUK]

I don't see how this would render my current lenses useless, surely this is aimed at new lens designs only? :shrug:
If it is digitally adjusted then the digital adjustment could just look at the lens attached and say 'Oh, that one is optically OK, I'll do nothing then'

I'm only guessing here, but it probably won't. It depends on how the new technology is implemented. It is very possible that manufacturers will initially just put the new stuff into cameras with existing lenses. Canon and Nikon especially, given their huge existing customer base that Panosonic and others just don't have to worry about.

But cameras that take this half-way route will not be making best use of what's possible. New lenses (perhaps part of a new parallel Canon/Nikon 'consumer' range) will pass more lens-specific data to the camera, so it knows exactly what correction algorithms to apply. Current lenses don't do this, and you have to supply that information manually in post processing in order to, for example, make best use of Canon's DPP aberration correction facility. With the new system it will be possible to get JPEGs straight out of the camera that are better than anything you can do in photoshop.

The other thing that will really test manufacturers' resolve is changing the lens mount fundamentally. With a digital system, without a reflex mirror, it is possible, and better, to move the lens closer to the sensor. But there is maybe a way around that with just a simple spacing adaptor to use old lenses on new cameras. They would still benefit from a lot of the new image enhancing technology. But if you want to take full advantage of better quaility imaging from smaller, cheaper, and wider range lenses, you would need the new glass.

 

[HoppyUK]

There is some truth, and some not-so-true in the post.

Lens design needs to be a compromise of many factors : price, weight, distortion, chromatic aberration, sharpness, vignetting to list the mains problems. You can optimise it for particular qualities, as long as you are happy to sacrifice the other qualities. I guess what Panasonic are suggesting is that the lens is optimised for, say, sharpness and CA, but with unacceptable distortion or vignetting. The digital processing would then correct this.

However, the digital processing will certainly lose image quality by either discarding pixels or by stretching pixels thinly. To correct for vignetting will increase noise levels.

New lenses? Well this shouldn't require new lenses - a lens that works well will just require less work to be done by the digital processor.

It may be true that they will be able to produce cheap, light, super-zooms with no distortion and high sharpness/resolution using this method - I honestly don't know enough about what compromises need to be made in order for this to be possible. It is possible that the digital manipulation degrades image quality so much that there's no advantage, but I assume that the panasonic people are on to this, or they wouldn't be pursuing it.

Micro 4/3rd's has the same sensor size as 4/3rds (correct me if I'm wrong), but has a short lens flange to sensor distance (due to a lack of reflex mirror). I wonder if this will be the way forward - we only use the mirror for the viewfinder, and it seems with live view there is a shift to not using the finder. The advantage is that, in theory, wide-angle lenses can be designed in the way range finder lenses are (i.e. are very close to the sensor), which allows for smaller, cheaper, better wideangles. Your current lenses would be compatible with the new system using an adaptor, but the new lenses would not be compatible with your current SLR.

If anything, I possibly see a lens mount and sensor system which does away with the reflex mirror becoming the future standard. I don't think good all-round lens design can be replaced for high-end imaging.

Duncan.

I am not alone!

Thanks for seeing the opportunity Duncan, and not just the problems

 

[Chillimonster]

Everyone is quick to jump on the bandwagon and slate Panasonic, but is this not similar to the way that Leica coded lenses tell the M8 about the Vignetting that will occur on certian lenses :shrug:

The camera uses a 6-bit coding system that identifies the lens in use to the electronics built into M8 body. The code is included on all current Leica lenses. To prevent excessive vignetting due to closer lens mount than in a DSLR and thus higher light rays angle on the sensor periphery, offset micro-lenses are used on the CCD. The 6-bit code on lenses gives information about optic vignetting characteristics, permitting software adjustment

 

[Radiohead]

Panasonic is advantaged in that it doesn't have a huge range of heritage products and consumers to service. But if Canon and Nikon don't follow this new opportunity, in ten years time they won't be selling much new product either.

And I will put money on this. These new cameras and lenses will be sensational. Give it five years and you will be amazed. And in ten years time we will all be using them

You left out a crucial bit for some of us'

'At the moment you're targeting the high end amateur. Is that as far as you'll go or would you ever consider going to the really high end - the professional end - of the market, with Micro Four Thirds?

We don't want to go to the real 'professional' area. We would, however, like to expand our lineup with more consumer-type products, but we've really just started, and are still in the initial phase of introducing Micro Four Thirds. So maybe in the future? I don't know when, but there is certainly potential. Micro Four Thirds has the potential for entry level models and step-up models.'

That's huge.