Serious problem for a PC user

jamesoliverstone

jamesoliverstone

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I have come to a point where I cannot ignore mac products any longer and I need to get some advice. I do NOT want this to turn into a flame war, I need serious, educated and acurate advice.

Allow me to set the scene.

I am opening a studio soon and I just cannot ignore the utter sexyness of the 27" imac. That screen makes me drool and I love the design, always have done.

Now I know a lot of people use mac's for photography and design and I am sure for that reason it would be perfect for me...

Heres the bite though, I have a few concerns about whether or not to switch from PC to Mac for my studio machine.

1. I have been using PC's for 20 years, I have many many qualifications in IT from MCSE, MCSD, VCP, CCDA etc etc... I am an IT tech nerd. I have never EVER used a mac and the time I had a play in a mac store I felt like a child having to re-learn a new technology. I understand the PC world inside out and build machines that are fast and reliable.

2. I am used to designing corporate networks for PC environments. I intend to build the studio using that knowledge. I want windows server with full backup and DR, sharepoint and CRM for my business systems and exchange etc for mail... (you get the idea). I have no idea whatsoever how well my MAC will integrate with that environment

3. I need to use financial packages and SAGE for example dont seem to have a mac version... what do you guys do?

4. From a day to day perspective, I intend to run CS4, Lightroom and a couple of other design packages, but how the hell do you back up your system? With my PC I have RAID internally... what about the iMac... I cant see how I can have DR and failover incase of hardware failure? I dont fancy having to waste a day rebuilding a dead system and re-installing the OS to how I had it configured...

5. Its that bloody screen! I love it... should I just build a decent PC and buy the MAC 30" screen and be done with it?

Any thoughts and advice would be greatly appreciated.

I just cant help ignoring the imac anymore... it will look the shizzle on my desk as apposed to a god awful huge tower case, but does it have the functionality to be able to be a fully scalable, reliable and useable business system?

Thoughts?
 
if i was in your position (im most of the way there minus the qualifications lol) is stick with PC.

a mac can offer you nothing new seeing as you know how to build, use and maintain PCs properly.

the OS is just a personal preference thing.

as for those screens.. YUK. matte FTW ;)
 
I'm in a similar position with regards to the choice, although I've never really understood the Mac attraction.
Sure it's pretty and all, but that does nothing to make it functional or fast. People use it because it's easy and simple to pick up and work. If you know what you're doing on a pc the I really don't see the advantage of a Mac, other than it looks prettier.

EDIT: And yes MATTE FTW!!!
 
Just a note: The other day one of our clients went out and bought a Mac, and of course I had to make it fit into the Windows network, by VPN'ing it in and 'mapping' network drives.

You can't map network drives, not even in 10.6, and while the VPN functionality works, it still had problems using the Mail App. They look lovely, they really do, but that morning made me remember why I've stuck to Windows all this time. For anything vaguely 'businessey' Windows is leaps ahead of the Mac offering.

I think you should just build a nice PC and get the Apple screen. If you want a taste of Mac OS X, just hackintosh a Dell Mini 9 - that's what I'm going to do when I have the funds (after kitting out my camera :clap:)
 
The coincidence is bizarre. I'm an MCSE, CCNP/DP etc etc. Who comtemplated exactly the same thing a few months back.

I know various languages, operating systems and environmetns like the back of my hand; however my Mac/Linux skills were zero, so I was naturally concerned.

I went an got Mac Pro 8-Core beasty with 12Gb ram and 2x 24" HP monitors. This is the important bit:

"By far the best decision I have ever when it comes to buying a new device"

It's fantastic and it just works, no crashing, no slowdown, no annoying microsoft bullsh^t and most importantly photography (specifically PP) is back to being a pleasurable experience.
 
In addition to my last post:

1) Do NOT get the apple screens. I laid out £1300 on 2 24" ones and in the end they are too glossy and 'contrasty' for 100% accurate colour profiling. I can recommend some pro-HP models which will only cost you circa £400 each. (BTW I returned the Mac ones)

2) In relation to other peoples concerns re VPN, drives etc. Whatever the Mac can't do (which is very little) I just use a windows VM for. Simples.
 
Thanks for the replies so far... very interesting indeed.

kalibre said:
In addition to my last post:

1) Do NOT get the apple screens. I laid out £1300 on 2 24" ones and in the end they are too glossy and 'contrasty' for 100% accurate colour profiling. I can recommend some pro-HP models which will only cost you circa £400 each. (BTW I returned the Mac ones)
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Please can you link the screens for me, as this is my biggest concern

I have a 27" screen on my PC at the mo and I just cant get the calibration correct for print. Stuff that looks great on my very contrasty glossy hi-res screen looks nothing like they print... and its Pi**ing me off no end.

I thought that one of the main reasons the design pro's love macs is for the awesome screens?
 
kalibre said:
Not had any problems mapping drives to Windows boxes and my local NAS so far. To make them persistant you just launch them on startup or use automator to taylor it to your needs. :)
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That isn't 'mapping' a drive, though, it's simply creating a link to a network folder. Mapping a drive as Windows does is treating said folder as an actual hard disk.
 
trencheel303 said:
That isn't 'mapping' a drive, though, it's simply creating a link to a network folder. Mapping a drive as Windows does is treating said folder as an actual hard disk.
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True kindof, but 'mapping' a drive windows styli wouldn't have any benefits that I can think of?!? Seeing as you don't use drive designations (C,D etc) it shouldn't matter. If you really have to reference a drive/path in command line or scripting then there is always the network path to refer to, in a similar way that you'd specify something in the windows shell (\\10.10.10.10\D$ etc....).
 
I was in a very similar position to you James, apart from opening the studio (MCSE etc.....).

I acquired a Quad core Mac Pro with Snow leapord on it. Used it for a while, found that the limitations *for me* of the software availability didn't work for me. I'm running an Small business server 2003. Entourage just doesn't cut it as a competitor to Outlook.

However, running windows 7 on a MAC pro with 10gb of memory is fantastic.

The build quality and the design of the Mac pro is fantastic. But to buy it to run windows on is a bit of overkill.
 
Well, it certainly seems like I may just have to stick with PC and try and get myself a sexy screen to work on. After using the iphone and ipod for so long, apple products just feel so solid and well thought out, but perhaps windows is just more business focussed than mac.

I would imagine that if I was buying a new system for home for phtography and internet use... there wouldnt be a discussion, but for my grand business plans I may just stick with windows.

Thanks for the advice guys...
 
You can build quick and reliable Windows machines. You have a wealth of knowledge about Windows and Windows problem solving. Right?

Why would you need a mac? Yes they are shiny, the interface is great - but their main 'pro' over a Windows machine is reliability and speed, both of which are irrelevant in this case, because you presumably already have a fast & reliable PC?

Stick to what you know for the first 6-12 months, and once your business is stabilized then look into a Mac. I'm not dissing Macs, but at this point I would see it as a pointless investment when you could spend the money on advertising, networking etc - all of which will gain you business that the Mac wont.

James
 
You can run the "sexy" monitor on a pc. Like you I build my own systems. I cannot remember the last time one crashed.
 
Just to say that the new dell 2711 has the same panel it it as the 27" iMac but is CCFL lit rather than LED. Its darn expensive though at just over a grand.
 
Jamesbuk said:
You can build quick and reliable Windows machines. You have a wealth of knowledge about Windows and Windows problem solving. Right?
Click to expand...

But the point is that you shouldn't 'have to' troubleshoot. Sure it was fun when I got into IT 15 years ago, but enoughs enough, I don't expect to have to troubleshoot something when time is precious and time is money.

PsiFox: You sure you're not running linux, lol. The build will stop some crashing but Windows is inherently unstable and whilst system crashes can be reduced, individual program exceptions are really unavoidable.
 
kalibre said:
But the point is that you shouldn't 'have to' troubleshoot. Sure it was fun when I got into IT 15 years ago, but enoughs enough, I don't expect to have to troubleshoot something when time is precious and time is money
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the point is you shouldnt let the system get to the point where it needs troubleshooting.. as IT techs i'd like to assume that we all have squeeky clean systems :D

PsiFox: You sure you're not running linux, lol. The build will stop some crashing but Windows is inherently unstable and whilst system crashes can be reduced, individual program exceptions are really unavoidable.
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and likewise none of my W7 boxes have crashed yet and ive been running since the RC :)
 
Kalibre - I'm saying that he has the ability to quickly understand what a problem is - unlike a new Mac machine where if he runs into problems, it may take him longer to fix and don't you dare tell me Macs dont have issues.

Yes exactly - Time is money, so why dump a huge investment on a computer that IS NOT going to make him any money as a start up? Far too many studios in the last year have gone bust because they've spent the money on new equipment rather than spending it getting their name out there.
I used to travel around the country using about 20 different studios, now only about 6-7 of them are still in business - and guess what - they are the ones who invested wisely, they didn't buy brand new equipment, they didn't buy brand new shiny macs. They have minimal overheads and cash reserves because they didn't spend it on equipment that most photographers really don't give a stuff about.

Using the money on advertising and networking is FAR more likely to generate him business and create stability which is what he needs.
 
neil_g said:
the point is you shouldnt let the system get to the point where it needs troubleshooting.. as IT techs i'd like to assume that we all have squeeky clean systems :D
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Lol, that'd be nice, but the reality is that even the best designed and sqeekyist of clean systems to lock up or have problems. This includes MoD and Financial services systems unfortunately.

Windows tries to encompass so much and perform on so many varieties of hardware platforms. Ultimately IMHO it's Windows biggest strength but also it's biggest weakness.

Linux based shells do a better job of protecting system kernals from 'the user' which can cause it's own problems but does tend to help stability. Combine this with a predictable hardware platform (ala Apple) and stability is built in.

(Just for clarification I've not turned into an Apple fan-boy, but I do have a genuine respect for the platform in certain arenas. :geek:)
 
Jamesbuk said:
Kalibre - I'm saying that he has the ability to quickly understand what a problem is - unlike a new Mac machine where if he runs into problems, it may take him longer to fix and don't you dare tell me Macs dont have issues.

Yes exactly - Time is money, so why dump a huge investment on a computer that IS NOT going to make him any money as a start up? Far too many studios in the last year have gone bust because they've spent the money on new equipment rather than spending it getting their name out there.
I used to travel around the country using about 20 different studios, now only about 6-7 of them are still in business - and guess what - they are the ones who invested wisely, they didn't buy brand new equipment, they didn't buy brand new shiny macs. They have minimal overheads and cash reserves because they didn't spend it on equipment that most photographers really don't give a stuff about.

Using the money on advertising and networking is FAR more likely to generate him business and create stability which is what he needs.
Click to expand...

I agree, whatever platform you chose; you have to invest wisely.
 
kalibre said:
Lol, that'd be nice, but the reality is that even the best designed and sqeekyist of clean systems to lock up or have problems. This includes MoD and Financial services systems unfortunately.

Windows tries to encompass so much and perform on so many varieties of hardware platforms. Ultimately IMHO it's Windows biggest strength but also it's biggest weakness.
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ill let you know when i have my first windows 7 lock up then ;)

but to say that other OS's are perfect and dont crash would be far from the truth (notice i dont point the finger to risk the thread locking debates lol)
 
kalibre said:
Lol, that'd be nice, but the reality is that even the best designed and sqeekyist of clean systems to lock up or have problems. This includes MoD and Financial services systems unfortunately.
Click to expand...

So how do you work that out - mine don't - I have 2 win 7 boxes that have yet to have a single locked app, that requires restarting or a reboot.

If you run the Basics on a MAC you'll probably be ok, but the design guys at work say they have just as many issues with them as they have with their PCs.
 
Jamesbuk said:
Kalibre - I'm saying that he has the ability to quickly understand what a problem is - unlike a new Mac machine where if he runs into problems, it may take him longer to fix and don't you dare tell me Macs dont have issues.

Yes exactly - Time is money, so why dump a huge investment on a computer that IS NOT going to make him any money as a start up? Far too many studios in the last year have gone bust because they've spent the money on new equipment rather than spending it getting their name out there.
I used to travel around the country using about 20 different studios, now only about 6-7 of them are still in business - and guess what - they are the ones who invested wisely, they didn't buy brand new equipment, they didn't buy brand new shiny macs. They have minimal overheads and cash reserves because they didn't spend it on equipment that most photographers really don't give a stuff about.

Using the money on advertising and networking is FAR more likely to generate him business and create stability which is what he needs.
Click to expand...


That pretty much sums it up for me (y)

I have money to invest in a new computer, I budgeted for it and wanted to make sure I make the right decision.

I dont have time to fanny about fixing silly little problems, but I also want to create the right "look" for my ultra modern studio...

The more I think about it the more I just think I will stick with what I know best. I didnt think about the time needed to re-learn working practises on a new platform, and you are right, I dont have time for that.

Decision made :D
 
barneyrubble said:
So how do you work that out - mine don't - I have 2 win 7 boxes that have yet to have a single locked app, that requires restarting or a reboot.
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You obviously have a divine installation. Congratulations. ;)

barneyrubble said:
If you run the Basics on a MAC you'll probably be ok, but the design guys at work say they have just as many issues with them as they have with their PCs.
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There are many problems with Mac just like any other platform, I wouldn't suggest there isn't.

In my experience (extensive and professional on the Windows front yet more recent for the Mac) there seem to be less isssues. No rose coloured specs involved and no embellishment of the facts.

Of course I could have always just been unlucky with the 1000+ PCs I must have used over the last 15 years.
 
jamesoliverstone said:
That pretty much sums it up for me (y)

I have money to invest in a new computer, I budgeted for it and wanted to make sure I make the right decision.

I dont have time to fanny about fixing silly little problems, but I also want to create the right "look" for my ultra modern studio...

The more I think about it the more I just think I will stick with what I know best. I didnt think about the time needed to re-learn working practises on a new platform, and you are right, I dont have time for that.

Decision made :D
Click to expand...

Nice one, glad you were able to come to a decision. Good luck with the studio dude. (y)
 
It's difficult to advise on an issue like this without seeming to be biased. My experience comes from running IT for a global software company and our network is 90% Windows based. We run many of the platforms you mention - Windows server with SharePoint, Exchange, SAP for CRM/ERP (just moved from Sage for the financials) and a bunch of other stuff for our development teams. With a large number of users spread across 17 countries, AD is essential for us too. Without exception, every time we have to put a Mac anywhere near one of our key systems we get major problems or it simply will not work. Often, the only way around this is to use Windows in VM's so now you're paying over the odds for the hardware and then having to pay more still for extra Windows licenses (not to mention the amount of time my techs lose messing about with this stuff).

SharePoint and Exchange are all about integration with the desktop, many CRM packages integrate tightly with Outlook and some leverage Exchange functionality. Macs don't play nicely with these sort of platforms.

None of this means that Macs are bad or that the people that use them are wrong to do so - it just means they are different. They are great for SOHO use and niche areas in larger companies but the more you move towards a client server envioronment and application integration the less apealing the Mac becomes.

Just my 2 cents...
 
kalibre said:
You obviously have a divine installation. Congratulations. ;)



There are many problems with Mac just like any other platform, I wouldn't suggest there isn't.

In my experience (extensive and professional on the Windows front yet more recent for the Mac) there seem to be less isssues. No rose coloured specs involved and no embellishment of the facts.

Of course I could have always just been unlucky with the 1000+ PCs I must have used over the last 15 years.
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Looks like all of us on here have both MAC and PC professional experience, but differing opinions. Anyway, having a combined 37 years experience we don't agree, so I think I'll leave it there as James has made his decision, and another pointless MAC vs PC thread will only get locked.
 
barneyrubble said:
Looks like all of us on here have both MAC and PC professional experience, but differing opinions. Anyway, having a combined 37 years experience we don't agree, so I think I'll leave it there as James has made his decision, and another pointless MAC vs PC thread will only get locked.
Click to expand...

Yeah good idea. lol. ;)
 
jamesoliverstone said:
I have come to a point where I cannot ignore mac products any longer and I need to get some advice. I do NOT want this to turn into a flame war, I need serious, educated and acurate advice.

Allow me to set the scene.

I am opening a studio soon and I just cannot ignore the utter sexyness of the 27" imac. That screen makes me drool and I love the design, always have done.

Now I know a lot of people use mac's for photography and design and I am sure for that reason it would be perfect for me...

Heres the bite though, I have a few concerns about whether or not to switch from PC to Mac for my studio machine.

1. I have been using PC's for 20 years, I have many many qualifications in IT from MCSE, MCSD, VCP, CCDA etc etc... I am an IT tech nerd. I have never EVER used a mac and the time I had a play in a mac store I felt like a child having to re-learn a new technology. I understand the PC world inside out and build machines that are fast and reliable.

2. I am used to designing corporate networks for PC environments. I intend to build the studio using that knowledge. I want windows server with full backup and DR, sharepoint and CRM for my business systems and exchange etc for mail... (you get the idea). I have no idea whatsoever how well my MAC will integrate with that environment

3. I need to use financial packages and SAGE for example dont seem to have a mac version... what do you guys do?

4. From a day to day perspective, I intend to run CS4, Lightroom and a couple of other design packages, but how the hell do you back up your system? With my PC I have RAID internally... what about the iMac... I cant see how I can have DR and failover incase of hardware failure? I dont fancy having to waste a day rebuilding a dead system and re-installing the OS to how I had it configured...

5. Its that bloody screen! I love it... should I just build a decent PC and buy the MAC 30" screen and be done with it?

Any thoughts and advice would be greatly appreciated.

I just cant help ignoring the imac anymore... it will look the shizzle on my desk as apposed to a god awful huge tower case, but does it have the functionality to be able to be a fully scalable, reliable and useable business system?

Thoughts?
Click to expand...


I've just got my 27" iMac 2 days ago, it's fantastic. I have a Macbook Pro at the moment but recently find that I'm only using it at home so went for the iMac. The screen is fantastic and a real joy to use.

I joined an IT Support company 2 years ago, I was the only Mac user and got slated for it quite a bit, 2 years on there's 2 imacs, 3 Macbook pro's and 8 iphones. My colleague who also has a bunch of Microsoft qualifications who once claimed "I'll never EVER own an Apple product in my life" is now becoming a bigger Apple fanatic than me, he's seen the light :)

The new OS Snow Leopard works fine with Exchange if you want to use that, the in built Apps, Mail/iCal/Address book all sync very easily.

I've used MYOB / Lightspeed for accounts and business running, currently with Lightspeed.

I let Time Machine backup my machine, it's inbuilt to the Mac's and works very well. It does incremental backups so you can restore files from different versions, as well as recover to another machine from restore points. The complete machine.

Don't forget you can always run Windows inside your mac either as a dual boot or virtually. I find that most people start by running windows side by side either virtually or another machine but the windows box gets used less and less until it's dumped altogether.

If you ever worry that you use X software on your PC and is there a mac alternative, 99% of the time there is and it's usually better :). Don't think just get one :)
 
If you plan to use Adobe products, stick with a PC. There is no magic surrounding Mac's beyond their aesthetic. The two devices do similar jobs with similar software. Apple tend to have a better reputation because their smaller install base and centralised hardware vendor makes controlling the flow of press and information easier.

As for the Apple 30" displays, there are much better screens out there from NEC, Eizo and LaCie etc. The money you will save by not buying a Mac can be put toward one of these displays.


Is the exterior aesthetic really more important than serviceability, familiarity and cost? It seems for some Mac owners it is, but you have to make that decision for yourself. Of course, if there was 1 killer app you intended to use that was available for either platform that would form the basis of the swing vote, but looking at what you suggest you'll be using, that's no the case.
 
James Pardon said:
The new OS Snow Leopard works fine with Exchange if you want to use that, the in built Apps, Mail/iCal/Address book all sync very easily.
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"fine" is debatable.. its "better" with exchange 2007. mac mail had a nice tendancy of trying to search index exchange public folders by default and tying the IMAP service and the Information Store service into a big knot.

If you ever worry that you use X software on your PC and is there a mac alternative, 99% of the time there is and it's usually better :)
Click to expand...

a very sweeping statement to be honest.
 
James Pardon said:
If you ever worry that you use X software on your PC and is there a mac alternative, 99% of the time there is and it's usually better :). Don't think just get one :)
Click to expand...


Thats a very sweeping statement... do you have examples?

I use photoshop cs4, lightroom, ms office, illustrator and premiere mainly for my work... why are these better on mac?

Oh... and the biggest accounting package in the world has no mac client... sage.
 
Denyerec said:
If you plan to use Adobe products, stick with a PC. There is no magic surrounding Mac's beyond their aesthetic. The two devices do similar jobs with similar software. Apple tend to have a better reputation because their smaller install base and centralised hardware vendor makes controlling the flow of press and information easier.

As for the Apple 30" displays, there are much better screens out there from NEC, Eizo and LaCie etc. The money you will save by not buying a Mac can be put toward one of these displays.


Is the exterior aesthetic really more important than serviceability, familiarity and cost? It seems for some Mac owners it is, but you have to make that decision for yourself. Of course, if there was 1 killer app you intended to use that was available for either platform that would form the basis of the swing vote, but looking at what you suggest you'll be using, that's no the case.
Click to expand...

Thats pretty much what I am thinking now
 
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