Shenanigans at the SWPP

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The yellowed curtains hang high in the small windows of the hall allowing a little of the street light beyond to filter into the hall that wears the scars of a 100 years of the push and crush of many events. In the middle of this hall a small group sits in a semi-circle of scuffed plastic chairs. Lit by a flickering tube and aged bulbs they look lonely and small in the hall. A bearded man with a notepad and creased corduroys lifts his head and looking round the group settles his eyes on one of them.

"Mark?"

A man raises his head, slightly startled, head still low he looks at his tormentor. Then words burst from him but barely heard and fighting with the sob that concludes them.

"Yes, I was a member of the SWPP"

A hand reaches out and gently pats his back as others look on, some shocked and others wisely nodding their heads. They understand. They too have been there.
 
BouncyMelons said:
Shame nobody thought so show me the same courtesty before posting this on SWPP, several times.
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You posted the thread in a very public area and you obviously wanted to start the conversation, in effect an open invite, so there really are no grounds to complain when that information is diseminated further. We should all think before we post and to whom what we have written might eventually be communicated. This is really a discussion that could have its own long running thread so lets get back to identifying the problems with the SWPP.

Mike
 
mike weeks said:
You posted the thread in a very public area and you obviously wanted to start the conversation, in effect an open invite, so there really are no grounds to complain when that information is diseminated further. We should all think before we post and to whom what we have written might eventually be communicated. This is really a discussion that could have its own long running thread so lets get back to identifying the problems with the SWPP.

Mike
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Just pointing out to Dave that he can't really ask the for the same courtesy.
 
mike weeks said:
Dave,

you placed those comments in a place that is accesible to many people so if you did not want people to read them you should not have posted them - I was not making public, comments that were private in nature - your comments were being used to answer your own question.

You do not need permission to quote somebody else, what I did not do was state who it was I quoted from as I did not want to cause embarrasment (for which I apologise). I will in fututure ensure that if I feel the need to quote such comments I will attribute the comments, after I have sought the permissions of the mods to use the quote.

Mike
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Thank you for your apology which I wholeheartedly accept.

My question was about judging criteria for event photography, so I am somewhat puzzled as to why publicising my post would help me answer that.



Anyway I am happy to draw a line under this and move on.

God bless
Dave
 
Dave,

to judge or evaluate something you must first understand what it is that you are making that assesment on. Your post indicated that you did not have that knowledge and was actually highlighting the problem that the SWPP have, and that is that they do not understand what events are.

Once you understand what you are assessing then you can stipulate criteria against which to assess - judgements should be based on knowledge and experience and again there are no experienced event photographers that judge or mentor for the SWPP and if any of them have any event experience it is either so limited or out of date that it is not relevant. Just look at the prize giving photos from the SWPP convention, a 5 year old with a box brownie could do better although I appreciate the need for a super wide angle lens to get Phil Jones in.

As an example would you assess Jensons buttons ability to drive an F1 car the same way that you would assess Mrs Smith to drive the family car? No, and yet they are both driving cars and that is what the SWPP does, it equates everybody as being a portrait or wedding photographer and if your images do not fit in that genre you are snubbed at best.

They do not have the respect for schools photography which they have thrown together with events, 2 totally different disciplines or wildlife in which you people have entered pictures of cows and been succesful. Instead of developing something that could have een beneficial to photographers they saw a money making opportunity.

Mike
 
mike weeks said:
Dave,

you placed those comments in a place that is accesible to many people so if you did not want people to read them you should not have posted them - I was not making public, comments that were private in nature - your comments were being used to answer your own question.

You do not need permission to quote somebody else, what I did not do was state who it was I quoted from as I did not want to cause embarrasment (for which I apologise). I will in fututure ensure that if I feel the need to quote such comments I will attribute the comments, after I have sought the permissions of the mods to use the quote.

Mike
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Having sought some clarification on this, I would like to make one further comment.

Mike my comments were made in a private members section of the SWPP, so you did make public what were private comments meant for a selected audience. I would never post something of that nature on a public forum such as this is.

As you do not have access to those comments, I am assuming those comments were passed to you by another SWPP member who is following this thread. I apologise now if that it is not the case, but if it is so I would be grateful if that person would send me a private email so that the issue can be resolved, as it is I am now left wondering who to trust. I very much would like to resolve this in an attitude of grace and peace and in private.



God bless
Dave
 
Dave,

if I were receiving information about the forum from a 3rd party I would be very stupid to reveal that to you so that you can pass it on to the Taffia in Rhyl, however there are many more ways to find out what is going on there.

I could for example go to the convention and obtain membership or get somebody else to purchase on my behalf, as you may be aware I am quite adept at building websites and it would be easy enough to build one in the identity of a different photographer to use as proof of who I say I am to get access and a whole years fun for £99 got to be worth it. This also offers clues to other ways in such as the known backdoor in the forums software.

I also have taught network design and security and there are numerous tools that I could use to hijack an account, who knows Dave maybe I have cracked the password for your account, after all what better account could there be than a confirmed friend of the management? The cookies they use to remember your username so that you dont have to login each time provide a potential attack route if you know what you are doing.

Dave dont get paranoid. I have asked that they (the SWPP) remove my details from their site which they have refused to do so therefore that must still want contact with me - which they are getting (and I needed a vehicle to get that message to them). Perhaps if they were to leave me alone then I would leave them alone - it has taken a number of months to get this access and I dont intend to relinquish it until they complete my simple request.

Mike
 
What a shame it took so much to have it done.
 
mike weeks said:
Dave,

if I were receiving information about the forum from a 3rd party I would be very stupid to reveal that to you so that you can pass it on to the Taffia in Rhyl, however there are many more ways to find out what is going on there.

I could for example go to the convention and obtain membership or get somebody else to purchase on my behalf, as you may be aware I am quite adept at building websites and it would be easy enough to build one in the identity of a different photographer to use as proof of who I say I am to get access and a whole years fun for £99 got to be worth it. This also offers clues to other ways in such as the known backdoor in the forums software.

I also have taught network design and security and there are numerous tools that I could use to hijack an account, who knows Dave maybe I have cracked the password for your account, after all what better account could there be than a confirmed friend of the management? The cookies they use to remember your username so that you dont have to login each time provide a potential attack route if you know what you are doing.

Dave dont get paranoid. I have asked that they (the SWPP) remove my details from their site which they have refused to do so therefore that must still want contact with me - which they are getting (and I needed a vehicle to get that message to them). Perhaps if they were to leave me alone then I would leave them alone - it has taken a number of months to get this access and I dont intend to relinquish it until they complete my simple request.

Mike
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Hi Mike

As you are unwilling to be clear on the matter I am going to choose to believe that you did not receive the information from someone else, so the trust issue is, for me, now resolved.

I have no true knowledge of what is in your heart or where your motives lay, and for me to engage in a guessing exercise would be fruitless, judgemental and proabably self-seeking.

I try to operate from a "love believes all things" perspective; I often fail in this and when I do the result is always negative in some way, so please accept my sincere apology if I have ever held you in any disregard.

I wish you well Mike.

God bless
Dave
 
Well, we have launched the Help For Heroes Charity Fund Raising weekend in Leeds on 20-21 March 2010.

Details are here: http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=202099

I genuinely hope that the SWPP treats this event for what it is: A fund raising weekend for Help For Heroes.

This weekend goes beyond politics and goes beyond trade organisation affiliation. It is about raising as much money as we can for the charity and we are inclusive not exclusive. Anyone can attend and learn.

It wouldn't surprise me though if the SWPP suddenly put on a training event of their own. Call me sceptical, but after what happened in London, I can only hope that the SWPP Management support us in our endeavors. In my eyes they will get much more respect for supporting us, than they will for doing something against us.

Time will tell.
 
Well, it has been a week since I wrote to Mr Jones, asking how it is that photos of domesticated animals can win gold awards in the wildlife competition and since I've yet to get a full explanation, I decided to write again.

Simon Coates said:
Dear Mr Jones,

Well, it has a week since I received your lame answer to my question about how it is that photographs of domesticated animals can possibly be awarded gold medals in a wildlife competition. I suppose that I am not surprised that once again the SWPP has failed to address a serious question from one of its members.

I have been trying to work out if it is simply ignorance, arrogance or incompetence on your behalf when I came to the realisation that perhaps I was being naive: it could be all three! Whenever anyone asks an awkward question, you invariably either ignore it, or pay lip service to answering whilst managing to dodge giving an accurate answer.

It is clear to me that certain of your customers receive preferential treatment at the expense of others and yet the ‘lesser’ members are not supposed to ask why this is: we are just expected to accept the situation.

When I first became a customer of your company, I thought that it looked very promising. Given my love of wildlife photography I was really excited when you launched the SINWP and quickly sought my licentiateship. Now I find it a complete embarrassment. What worth is there in a qualification from such an organisation that thinks domesticated animals are “wildlife”? Absolutely none!

It is also interesting to see that an organisation that professes to “encourage high professional standards and ethics” seems quite happy to condone copyright theft of images within your forum. Many of your subscribers, such as the Landlord; Michael Martin and Colin Jones springs to mind, use images that are clearly the property of other people as their avatar. Surely this is a source of great embarrassment? Shouldn’t you be putting an end to this, or are you happy to exhibit double standards? Especially when someone from within your management team appears to be taking part?

I guess that it just goes to show how unprofessional the SWPP is. I would be grateful if you would remove my details from your membership page forthwith.
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The reply from Mr Jones was short:

Mr Phil Jones said:
Hi Simon
Thank you for your email - comments have been noted

All the best for the future

Kind regards

Phil Jones
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My comments may have been noted, but as of yet, they haven't removed my details, though they have now restricted my access to the public sections of their forum. Mind you, I noticed that now Colin Jones has given changed his avatar so that it isn't someone else's artwork.:clap:

Simon
 
Hi Simon


My current SWPP avatar is Buggs Bunny, which I am cosidering entering into the monthly competition, it was taken during a recent trip to Toon Town using a long telephto lens. I would be grateful if you could advise me on the matter


If I Were to enter my avatar into the monthly competition would it qualify as a wildlife shot of a rabbit (albiet a heavily processed rabbit, using a cartoon plug-in in photoshop) or should a rabbit be considered a domestic animal bearing in mind that some people keep them as pets; or perhaps, given Buggs' legendary Hollywood pedigree and celebrity status, would I be better to submit it in the environmental Portraiture section, as he is eating a carrot, whilst reclining in a hammock on the beach.




God bless
Dave
 
Shouldn't you direct this enquiry to a certain Phil Jones? :)

God help us!
 
Dave,

as it is you and you are the personal servant of the Taffia I am sure that they will let you enter it in multiple categories and if you dont win this month you can enter it again next month, after all what has integrity got to do with it? You must be tired out running backwards and forwards to Rhyl.

Get REAL, what is it they say 'there are none so blind as those that will not see?' and you do not want to see.

There have been changes on the SWPP forum (but too little too late, the Landlords quiz was cancelled last night because there was no-one on the forum) and I see in another thread that they have called TP an evil place - is that because people are allowed to talk the truth here? Of course the reason for the comments was because it was from more people leaving, with a number heading here.

Mike
 
Dave Routledge said:
Hi Simon


My current SWPP avatar is Buggs Bunny, which I am cosidering entering into the monthly competition, it was taken during a recent trip to Toon Town using a long telephto lens. I would be grateful if you could advise me on the matter


If I Were to enter my avatar into the monthly competition would it qualify as a wildlife shot of a rabbit (albiet a heavily processed rabbit, using a cartoon plug-in in photoshop) or should a rabbit be considered a domestic animal bearing in mind that some people keep them as pets; or perhaps, given Buggs' legendary Hollywood pedigree and celebrity status, would I be better to submit it in the environmental Portraiture section, as he is eating a carrot, whilst reclining in a hammock on the beach.

God bless
Dave
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:LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::clap::clap::clap::clap:

ROTFLMAO
 
can we leave the personal insults out please.
 
I would say a rabbit is a wild animal, bugs bunny on the other is clearly domesticated and therefore not a valid entry.
 
I see things have degenerated again.

Take a look at this objectively, and you will see that there are some issues here taht are not being tackled seriously, and I'm sorry to say that this being more from the SWPP.

By indicating that TP is not to be taken seriously, the SWPP ( not all of it) have just marginalised people even more. One should respect others, just because a forum is outspoken and more open, it shouldn't be disrespected.

Ignoring criticism, and turning away suggestions can only lead to problems.
 
I can't help wondering how many members they have lost over the last few months (or how many have been put off joining) by the various goings on, and how many more will not be re-joining when they subscription runs out.
 
Just from the pm's I have received giving me 99 reasons to celebrate then we are talking quite a few. Their forum has maybe a between a tenth and a quarter of the activity that it had a year ago. Many of the well known names have left and I know of quite a few more that are leaving.

The introduction of the seperate forums has not helped a lot - the events section has only 250 posts in 20 topics over 15 days and that outside of weddings is the most popular which itself only has just over 280 postings.

If you go to their front page you will see that is arranged to attract photographers to join, not to help potential customers find photographers. This was another of the issues that I pointed out to them. There is no guidance about what the qualifications mean to a customer and you just get lists of people saying what they can do, not what they have been assessed to do.

Phil Jones received a lifetime achievement award that has nothing to do with nepotism from his wife for his services to the photographic industry. He is running a business and should be working for his customers - if he was seen to be doing that then he would retain the existing ones and attract new ones.

Next year we are having a protest outside the convention for anybody that has been bullied, threatened or had difficulty cancelling their membership - to join you have to grow a scruffy beard and eat lots of pies. :)

Mike
 
Let's look at a few facts:

Quote from the SWPP:

"All photographers are not alike! True Professional Photographers who want to further their carer belong to the SWPP"

(Carer is their spelling mistake not mine)

In my opinion, from what I have seen recently many TRUE professional photographers are leaving as they don't want to be associated with the organisation. Now, I do acknowledge that the word "Professional" may be interpreted in many different ways.

Quote from the SWPP:

"SWPP members benefit from continuous education in the field through Europe's largest Convention, regular meetings and programs, access to educational materials, and sharing knowledge with their peers."


Convention costs upwards of £1000 to attend, it cost me more to attend 2010 convention, not exactly cheap to say the least. Regular meetings and programmes? A quick look at the SWPP Seminars Page (http://www.swpp.co.uk/seminars.htm) shows that for an organisation that says it has thousands of members, the Trainig and Seminars it provides is really, really poor. The training is non existant. Access to educational materials I can only assume means you can purchase books via the SWPP shop. You will often find these on Amazon substantially cheaper. Sharing knowledge with their peers? Well as already has been pointed out, the SWPP Forum is now no longer frequented by as many people.

Quote from the SWPP:

SWPP has a strict Code of Ethics that is rigidly enforced to ensure the consumer is not only hiring a talented photographer, but also one with impeccable business practices.

The SWPP have to be very careful with this one. My question is "How is it rigidly enforced?" "How does the SWPP know what my business practices are like?" - At NO time when I was a Member was I inspected, nor was I asked to provide my insurance documents, nor was I continually checked to see that I met the aforementioned Code of Ethics.

A Code of Ethics is only as good as the enforcement behind it - it's not worth the paper it is written on if it is never upheld, investigated or checked into to ensure that Members are complying.

Quote from the SWPP:

"Don't settle for less. Hire a Photographer who is a member of the SWPP You'll be glad you did!"

The couple who hired Mr Bowers obviously were not glad they hired an SWPP Member. They took him to Court.

Now, all that aside, I have been, from Day 1, fair towards the SWPP. For some people the £99 a year is a worth while investment, they get their monies worth out of it and I can't argue with that at all. I have always said to people, if you get your monies worth out of then stay/join.

The SWPP could be such a bigger better organisation if they simply fulfilled the promises and statements made on their OWN website.
 
mike weeks said:
Just from the pm's I have received giving me 99 reasons to celebrate then we are talking quite a few. Their forum has maybe a between a tenth and a quarter of the activity that it had a year ago.

Mike
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Hi Mike

The forum's own stats do not show that at all, depending on what is being measured there is only a slight increase/decrease in forum activity between Jan 2010 and Jan 2009; would you mind saying where you got your figures from?

God bless
Dave
 
Dave,

so now you are the forum manager? You provide us with ever more evidence of what your actual purpose is here.

I visit the site every day and I can see it with my own eyes - you can get a list of all postings since your last visit and that list has decreased greatly.

The number of postings of people leaving is also evidence of what is happening.

Just look at 'Mick the Landlords' quiz which he dropped on Sunday night because the forum was empty.

Would the last man out of the SWPP please switch out the lights.

For those that don't want to grow a beard for the protest we have a number of stick on ones :)

Mike
 
mike weeks said:
Dave,

so now you are the forum manager? You provide us with ever more evidence of what your actual purpose is here.

I visit the site every day and I can see it with my own eyes - you can get a list of all postings since your last visit and that list has decreased greatly.

The number of postings of people leaving is also evidence of what is happening.

Just look at 'Mick the Landlords' quiz which he dropped on Sunday night because the forum was empty.

Would the last man out of the SWPP please switch out the lights.

For those that don't want to grow a beard for the protest we have a number of stick on ones :)

Mike
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Hi Mike

Just to clarify I am not the forum manager, the forum stats are available to all forum members and the stats show a slight increase and a slight decrease in forum activity.

Your statement that forum activity has dropped by between a 10/th and 1/4
is misleading (unless you have other quantifiable figures that are more accurate than the forums own stats).

I urge anyone who has access to the figures to please check this out for yourself.

Part of my reason for being here, is to bring some balance to what can be a hugely biased thread, your latest post about the forum is an example of how things which are not necessarily true about the SWPP are presented as fact.



I agree with Mark Pearson that the SWPP could make improvements, but it is not, in my experience, anything like as bad as what is sometimes portrayed here, on the contrary there are lots of people whose business and skills have improved as a result of SWPP membership

The scrutiny of the monthly competition, the personal insults, and the apparent pleasure that takes place when someone leaves, truly baffles me.


God bless
Dave
 
Dave Routledge said:
The scrutiny of the monthly competition, the personal insults, and the apparent pleasure that takes place when someone leaves, truly baffles me.
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You are baffled by the scrutiny of the monthly competition? Why? I am baffled as to why it is that you cannot see that the way in which the monthly competition is run is deeply flawed. It is a fact that certain members are given more leniency with regards to the rules than others are, thereby giving them an unfair advantage. Also, getting people to judge subjects outside their area of knowledge is unfair. I am sure that the wedding and portrait members would be royally cheesed off if they felt they were be judged by a flower and bug photographer.

I am sorry to keep harping back to the wildlife competition, but since that is where my passion for photography lays, I have an interest in how that competition plays out. Any body that proclaims itself to be professional really should understand that photographs of cows and sheep have no place in a WILDLIFE competition: they belong in science and nature. It would be like having christening photos in a wedding competition!

Mark is right when he says that the SWPP is fine for some people. For me, it was a total waste of money and I wish that I'd never heard of them. All I got from being a member was a lousy magazine, access to a sub-standard camera club forum populated by people full of their own self-importance and an increase in the amount of spam emails offering me special "swpp" discounts on the latest wedding albums.

In my view, the SWPP are little more than snake-oil salesmen. The fact that Mr Jones was awarded a lifetime achievement award by his own company says it all for me! They are a laughable outfit and the sooner their customers wake up to the fact that the SWPP has no interest at all in improving its customers' reputations, only in fleecing them for more money, the better for all.

On the plus side Dave, I am sure that you'll get a special mention and an award at next year's convention for daring to venture into the lion's den and defending what little is left of their honour.

Simon
 
I'm equally baffled, but only that anyone takes the SWPP 'qualifications' and competitions sufficiently seriously to spend time attacking them. They've always been a joke, which was why I didn't go anywhere near either when I was a member. My sole reason for joining was access to the forums.
 
Wildsnaps said:
All I got from being a member was a lousy magazine, access to a sub-standard camera club forum populated by people full of their own self-importance

Simon
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Hi Simon

That is a GROSS misrepresentation of the forum and its members. Another example of hyperbole and character assassination; with great respect Simon, I think you should withdraw that remark.


God bless
Dave
 
The purpose of this thread was to discuss the pros and cons of the SWPP as an organisation.

Please can we all remember that folks! :)

No point getting all hot under the collar because there is a differing of opinions which we are all entitled too.

This is Talk Photography, not the SWPP Forum, so from where I am sat and judging by the way I have been treated since arriving here, ALL opinions are welcome and actively encouraged.
 
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