Shenanigans at the SWPP

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The food analogies are quite interesting.

In food terms I would put event photography down as the sushi of the photography world. A lot of preparation, considerable skill in presentation, an efficient work flow and prepared, served and eaten on the day.

Fast food does not have to mean it is a burger.

John
 
and there was me thinking about joining something like this.

shall not be doing that now. was never overly keen on belonging to something anyway. seems a bit naff.
 
Dave,

the Red Arrows have their own in-house photographer so this is a rhetorical question. SWPP camera club type photographers buying a ticket and turning up and taking snaphots certainly do not qualify. There are very few photographers professionally taking i.e. being commisioned to take such photographs and to the best of my knowledge none of them are in the SWPP.

If you want to know what event photographers do go along to one of their seminars at places like Focus or the prom day at Photomart and then you will understand why the SWPP has set up an organisation without the most basic understanding of the people they are targetting at.

But one big favour please dont come up and mention one word about religion to me at any of these, photography yes, religion no.

Sales Bless
Mike

Hi Mike

I assume then that it would be okay if a commissioned Red Arrows photographer were to submit (rhetorical or not) an image into the events section. So if the criteria for submission is payment (apologies if this is not what you are saying) how does the judge know whether the photographer has been paid?

I am having difficulty understanding why, if we accept that an airshow is an event, someone who takes an image at that event should not be able to submit that image in the events section of the competition. The Red Arrows may have their own official photographers, but other photographers are free to photograph them and publish their images.

I am away on the 25th Feb so am unable to attend the Photomart event. I am sure that I will attend some seminars though should this area of my photography develop. I enjoyed your presentation at last year's photovision roadshow.

God bless
Dave
 
Hi Mike

I assume then that it would be okay if a commissioned Red Arrows photographer were to submit (rhetorical or not) an image into the events section. So if the criteria for submission is payment (apologies if this is not what you are saying) how does the judge know whether the photographer has been paid?

In this instance, the judge is facing a hard decision. In the instance of the SWPP's nature competition it is easy to tell if an animal is a wild animal or a domesticated cow! If the SWPP can't get simple things like that right, what chance do they have of getting the events section right?

Simon
 
Hi Mike

I assume then that it would be okay if a commissioned Red Arrows photographer were to submit (rhetorical or not) an image into the events section. So if the criteria for submission is payment (apologies if this is not what you are saying) how does the judge know whether the photographer has been paid?

I am having difficulty understanding why, if we accept that an airshow is an event, someone who takes an image at that event should not be able to submit that image in the events section of the competition. The Red Arrows may have their own official photographers, but other photographers are free to photograph them and publish their images.

Dave,

the airshow is the event but it is being commisioned to be there that I call into question - much the same goes for shots at gigs.

As to the question of whether the judge knows if there was a fee paid that is all down to integrity and if the owners cannot be called upon to show integrity, the integrity of judges is also regularly questioned, why should the photographers demonstrate it?

Just look at the integrity for allowing domesticated & caged animals in the wildlife section.

What the SWPP really needs is a spotter section for people to send in random photos - sorry they allow that in all the sections anyway.

Had to laugh about the latest problem of disqualifying a photo-journalistic photo because it looked posed after their own pet experts described doing exactly that (at the SWPP show) for their own winning photo journalistic shots.

Mike
 
Hi Dave

Throughout this thread a theme of your posts has been rhetorical questioning. I would like to put it less bluntly but it seems that any and all posts are viewed by yourself not on their strengths but on the basis of finding any holes. Whilst this is healthy to a point (as it makes each of us consider our viewpoint with care) it also gets tiring very quickly when it becomes argument for arguments sake.

If you take the definitions that Mike and myself have contributed you would see that there is a consistency in what we are saying.

An efficient work flow with minimal if any post processing.
The target sales market is usually the event participant.
That the photographer will be paid for his work by either sales to the participant or a fee from the event organiser to provide images to the attendees.

I think that the second and third points in the list excludes pictures of the Red Arrows as the pilots are not the target market nor is the photographer being paid a fee by the organiser to provide images to the attendees and the target market (the attendees) are not the participants.

If the event photographer was photographing attendees at a Red Arrows display (the images may or may not have aircraft or pilots featured in the images) for the purpose of selling the images to the attendees then this would be event photography as we have defined it. The definition is not precise and it cannot be precise as event photography covers a wide range of event types. However, it can be exclusive and in the definitions we have given the creation of images of a general nature at an event would not usually be classed as event photography as we have interpreted it.

Your interpretation may be different but considering a fair part of my income comes from event photography I can honestly say that I have never been asked for an image of the Red Arrows by any attendee at any event that I have photographed. You could argue that I have never photographed the Red Arrows (you would be wrong) or that I have never photographed the attendees at an event where the Red Arrows were making an appearance (again you would be wrong).

Event photographers take pictures that people attending the event will purchase. Experience tells us that the ones that sell are the ones that feature the attendees/participants. Therefore, whilst I may take images at an event of subjects of general interest (eg. the Red Arrows) I do not take these pictures with the intention of selling them to the attendees and they would not fall within the admittedly loose definition of Event Photography. The definition you seem to want (which will make all images acceptable to the genre and so redeem the SWPP) is that any occurrence in a persons life is an event of one sort or another and as such even the image of a flower would be acceptable as event photography as it signified an event in the photographers life.

A day with a working event photographer would probably change your view of what event photography is.

John
 
I am away on the 25th Feb so am unable to attend the Photomart event. I am sure that I will attend some seminars though should this area of my photography develop. I enjoyed your presentation at last year's photovision roadshow.

God bless
Dave

Dave - i assumed that you already did a few events and that you were starting to do balls judging by a post you made elsewhere asking advice on set up, staffing & printing, including hiring a printer for a job you have booked. The best source for that advice would be EPS but if you dont want to go there then some of the best/biggest events photographers can answer your questions on TP.
 
I think that the problem here is that those on here who are event photographers are assuming that the SWPP's monthly 'event' competition is somehow related to their SISEP partner society, whereas it is more generic than that. This is the cause of the confusion that sees high-quality event portraits get disqualified as being in the wrong category.

This problem is of their own making: it is only natural that specialist photographers will want competitions that reflect their area of expertise. With the SWPP introducing the 'partner societies' it would make sense that they should align the classifications of the monthly competition so that they match.

However, as long as the management continue with their biased belief that portrait and wedding photography is in some magical way superior to all other forms of photography, they will not change. It is totally ludicrous to expect someone who specialises in working with models and studio lights to have a leg to stand on when it comes to choosing a wildlife winner, or to pass comment on someone who specialises in equestrian photography.

Simon
 
Hi Dave

Throughout this thread a theme of your posts has been rhetorical questioning. I would like to put it less bluntly but it seems that any and all posts are viewed by yourself not on their strengths but on the basis of finding any holes. Whilst this is healthy to a point (as it makes each of us consider our viewpoint with care) it also gets tiring very quickly when it becomes argument for arguments sake.

If you take the definitions that Mike and myself have contributed you would see that there is a consistency in what we are saying.

An efficient work flow with minimal if any post processing.
The target sales market is usually the event participant.
That the photographer will be paid for his work by either sales to the participant or a fee from the event organiser to provide images to the attendees.

I think that the second and third points in the list excludes pictures of the Red Arrows as the pilots are not the target market nor is the photographer being paid a fee by the organiser to provide images to the attendees and the target market (the attendees) are not the participants.

If the event photographer was photographing attendees at a Red Arrows display (the images may or may not have aircraft or pilots featured in the images) for the purpose of selling the images to the attendees then this would be event photography as we have defined it. The definition is not precise and it cannot be precise as event photography covers a wide range of event types. However, it can be exclusive and in the definitions we have given the creation of images of a general nature at an event would not usually be classed as event photography as we have interpreted it.

Your interpretation may be different but considering a fair part of my income comes from event photography I can honestly say that I have never been asked for an image of the Red Arrows by any attendee at any event that I have photographed. You could argue that I have never photographed the Red Arrows (you would be wrong) or that I have never photographed the attendees at an event where the Red Arrows were making an appearance (again you would be wrong).

Event photographers take pictures that people attending the event will purchase. Experience tells us that the ones that sell are the ones that feature the attendees/participants. Therefore, whilst I may take images at an event of subjects of general interest (eg. the Red Arrows) I do not take these pictures with the intention of selling them to the attendees and they would not fall within the admittedly loose definition of Event Photography. The definition you seem to want (which will make all images acceptable to the genre and so redeem the SWPP) is that any occurrence in a persons life is an event of one sort or another and as such even the image of a flower would be acceptable as event photography as it signified an event in the photographers life.

A day with a working event photographer would probably change your view of what event photography is.

John


Thanks John

I can understand what event photography is when I think of it as a business model, my confusion comes when those images are being judged in a competition category.

For example a portrait shot of someone at a black tie event. What would someone who is a fellow/expert in event photography look for that say a fellow/expert in portrait photography might not have the knowledge to consider, when judging its merits?

God bless
Dave
 
David,

These guys doing Event Photography in it's professional sense are not looking to win awards specifically. Sure, I am sure they would be delighted to win an award, but that would be missing the point.

Event Photography is essentially a business, and the objective is more often to earn a living , and not necessarily looking tobe the world's best photographer.

I can see that from an objective point of view the concept of Event Photography is difficult to grasp. I mean , what is an 'event'? 911 was an 'event' , but the photographers who took images that aful day were not 'event photographers' .

The Red Arrows attend 'events', , events that are recreational. Their pilots when not with Red Arrows attend other events, that might be far less pleasant , but I divert, sorry.

An airshow is an event, but the Event Photographer will likely be there to take photos of members of the public climbing on board one of the exhibits, or perhaps to have their photos taken with Red Arrows pilots.

Simply taking a nice photo of the Red Arrows in my eyes is not an Event photo, it's a photo of the Red Arrows, and woould fit better into another category , like um, 'aviation' ?

We must all start to be sounding cynical by now, but once one really starts to seriuously look into what Event Photography is it does start to make sense.
 
Hi Dave

The different genres of Event Photography have shots which are particular to the that genre. for sports there is the action shot, the group shot, the posed team shot, the fun shot, the 'sportrait' etc. Each shot type has unique characteristics which separate it from the others.

With regard to your specific question. For a black tie event there are multiple areas I would look at when judging an image. For example:

Appropriate use of background (environmental or back drop).
Appropriate use of props (if used).
Quality of posing.
Appropriate pose for the subjects.
Style of posing.
Style of shot.
Lighting and is the lighting in keeping with the theme and the background.
If a black background is it black and is there sufficient separation between subject and background.
If a hi-key white background is there any wrap-around of light and has the photographer properly separated the background and subject.
Is the image full length, head and shoulders, grip and grin etc. and is this framing suited to the subject.
Is there anything in the background that should not be there.
Has a suitable focal length been used to avoid distorting feature unless intentionally.
Has a suitable camera height been used to avoid distorting features.
Is there any keystoning.
Is the image subject correctly exposed.
Is the white balance (set or chosen) suited to the image.
Is the subject in focus.
What has the photographer added by taking this image that could not have been done by another attendee ie. what skill has he brought to the table.
Has the photographer retained the ambience of evening (perhaps using ambient light with a tad of fill).
In what way is the image creative.

The above is a sample of what I would be looking for and what I am looking for when setting up my own images. There are a stream of things which you have to consider when setting up (working space, background, people flow, mains access etc.) and all of these affect your ability to get good images in a timely manner whilst spending just enough time with each subject so that they feel they have got their moneys worth but without keeping others waiting significantly. A black tie event is a juggling act of time and people and in the middle of it all you have to take photographs to a high standard.

I covered an event with Joe Calzaghe and Sir Henry Cooper last year. We had over 200 attendees who had to be photographed with each of them in just under a hour and half. The images had to printed and signed and returned to the attendees and each attendee had to get the correct image. That is 400 images and 400 prints (8"x12"). I averaged an image every 12 seconds. Each image had to be framed appropriately for the subject. It is not a case of sticking the camera on a tripod and just pressing the button. There are little people, big people, fat and thin, tall and short,people in wheelchairs, small groups etc. At the other extreme I set up a system for photographing children attending a Santa's Grotto. Again, posing and lighting and work flow were key elements in producing images that would sell.

I think there is a difference between what a photographer may enter for a competition and what the same photographer produces on a regular basis. For event photographers you have to think in terms of each image should be competition worthy. You wont achieve it but at least you are setting the standard that you want from your work and there is the commercial bonus that quality sells.

John
 
Hi Dave

The different genres of Event Photography have shots which are particular to the that genre. for sports there is the action shot, the group shot, the posed team shot, the fun shot, the 'sportrait' etc. Each shot type has unique characteristics which separate it from the others.

With regard to your specific question. For a black tie event there are multiple areas I would look at when judging an image. For example:

Appropriate use of background (environmental or back drop).
Appropriate use of props (if used).
Quality of posing.
Appropriate pose for the subjects.
Style of posing.
Style of shot.
Lighting and is the lighting in keeping with the theme and the background.
If a black background is it black and is there sufficient separation between subject and background.
If a hi-key white background is there any wrap-around of light and has the photographer properly separated the background and subject.
Is the image full length, head and shoulders, grip and grin etc. and is this framing suited to the subject.
Is there anything in the background that should not be there.
Has a suitable focal length been used to avoid distorting feature unless intentionally.
Has a suitable camera height been used to avoid distorting features.
Is there any keystoning.
Is the image subject correctly exposed.
Is the white balance (set or chosen) suited to the image.
Is the subject in focus.
What has the photographer added by taking this image that could not have been done by another attendee ie. what skill has he brought to the table.
Has the photographer retained the ambience of evening (perhaps using ambient light with a tad of fill).
In what way is the image creative.

The above is a sample of what I would be looking for and what I am looking for when setting up my own images. There are a stream of things which you have to consider when setting up (working space, background, people flow, mains access etc.) and all of these affect your ability to get good images in a timely manner whilst spending just enough time with each subject so that they feel they have got their moneys worth but without keeping others waiting significantly. A black tie event is a juggling act of time and people and in the middle of it all you have to take photographs to a high standard.

I covered an event with Joe Calzaghe and Sir Henry Cooper last year. We had over 200 attendees who had to be photographed with each of them in just under a hour and half. The images had to printed and signed and returned to the attendees and each attendee had to get the correct image. That is 400 images and 400 prints (8"x12"). I averaged an image every 12 seconds. Each image had to be framed appropriately for the subject. It is not a case of sticking the camera on a tripod and just pressing the button. There are little people, big people, fat and thin, tall and short,people in wheelchairs, small groups etc. At the other extreme I set up a system for photographing children attending a Santa's Grotto. Again, posing and lighting and work flow were key elements in producing images that would sell.

I think there is a difference between what a photographer may enter for a competition and what the same photographer produces on a regular basis. For event photographers you have to think in terms of each image should be competition worthy. You wont achieve it but at least you are setting the standard that you want from your work and there is the commercial bonus that quality sells.

John

John

I think that is most comprehensive and lucid reply to any question I have ever posed.

Thank you for taking the time to give such a detailed explanation, I think I understand now.

I guess as a fairly new genre it will take time to establish itself in its own right.

I am very impressed as to how you managed the workload. 12 seconds is an amazing feat(y)

God bless
Dave
 
So, now that we have got that out of our systems and we all understand, roughly, what "Event Photography" is, is it any wonder that Swampy find it hard to have ANYTHING to do with "Events".

What Swampy needs is simple - Event Photographers who do know what they are talking about, have the knowledge and the experience to be Members and help guide "The Society" so it is inclusive and not exclusive.

Oh, hang on a second. They DID have people like that but chose to expell them simply because the Members were making a lot of noise about wanting to improve Event photography both within Swampy and outside of it.

Nose / Face cutting off to spite syndrome me thinks :)
 
Dave,

do us all a favour and stop keep copying whole posts - just copy what if anything is relevant.

Now to the question, I would echo what John & Mark have said and add the following;

You can not assess the work of an event photographer in the traditional manner. The quality must be there but it is the ability to have a very high percentage of sellers of those taken at the event (not highly photoshopped images).

Any idiot can take one good picture of the Red Arrows but can you stand in the middle of a field and take 800 images in a day of horses jumping fences and get the timing, lighting and composition right on 760 (95% success) which is why I challenged how event photographers should be assessed within the SWPP.

You need to look at maybe 50 consecutive images to get a feel of what an event photographer can do (measure the success rate) from a number of events. I got really abused on the SWPP forum for suggesting this way and that traditional methods are wrong - ask real (not SISEP) event photographers who knows best and you will find my way of assessment gets the nod.

Any chancer with a camera can build up a folio of 20 decent images with time but the experts can do it day in, day out and event photographers have to do it in a really short space of time.

Profits Bless
Mike
 
I guess as a fairly new genre it will take time to establish itself in its own right.

Dave,

it is not a new genre, it has been around for in one form or another for a long time but the real change came with the Mitsubishi CP8000 about 10 years ago and it became possible to produce a decent print on site - this is about the same amount of time that the SWPP has been in its present format. If Phil would take a break from the pies and take notice of what people are telling him then he would have known about event photography years ago but when they setup SISEP they were advised by people that had never done events - nuff said.

Bookings Bless

Mike
 
Dave,

Please also tell us about your experiences of Event Photography and your planning for the 200 attendee school prom you have booked.
What will be your workfolw, set up etc????/



Pray for devine intervention :LOL:


This is the problems with events, any Tom, Dick or Dave will and do take bookings and then ask how to do them - get real, be a professional and learn how to do the job before selling your services that you cant yet provide.


Here be the work of Fools who love their Creator

Mike
 
Talking of events photos, Mike did you get my email about the H4H Leeds event?
 
Did you not get my reply?

Definitely going to be there, come up Friday, Sat pm sounds good, send me a press release and I will pass on. Bags etc sorted. Need to contact H4H to get use of logos

MIKE

Yup got that, booked rooms for you. Replied with a request for you to run a Master Class on Friday :)

Will resend email again.
 
Pray for devine intervention :LOL:


This is the problems with events, any Tom, Dick or Dave will and do take bookings and then ask how to do them - get real, be a professional and learn how to do the job before selling your services that you cant yet provide.


Here be the work of Fools who love their Creator

Mike

Mike

Why are you so insulting?

God bless
Dave
 
Dave,

Why don't you ever answer direct questions? Are you in training to join the SWPP management team???

Simon

I don't think that is true to say "I dont EVER answer direct questions" Simon. The answer to your last question is that I press the quote button by force of habit, and the hit reply realising I should have edited but it is now too late, In other words by mistake. No other reason.


God bless
Dave
 
Why don't you ever answer direct questions? Are you in training to join the SWPP management team???

PMSL

Simon is a naughty, naughty boy


Dave,

i thought that if I used terms that you could understand it would make it easier for you, though it never worked with the management of the SWPP.

Far too many people take bookings for events without knowing the difference between their **** and their elbow and make postings like this;

*snip* Mod Edit. Please dont quote in a manner as to wind up other members, thank you,. /*snip*expecting people to tell them how to do it - put the time in and you will know.

I dont take commisions for landscapes or product photography because I dont know how to do them well - if I wanted to do them I would learn first, take bookings second. Far too many wanabees on the SWPP forum calling themselves photographers, taking bookings and doing a crap job.

I would have respect if you had done the training or were committing to it.

Freedom of Speech - Bless it
Mike
 
PMSL

Simon is a naughty, naughty boy


Dave,

i thought that if I used terms that you could understand it would make it easier for you, though it never worked with the management of the SWPP.

Far too many people take bookings for events without knowing the difference between their a**e and their elbow and make postings like this;



expecting people to tell them how to do it - put the time in and you will know.

I dont take commisions for landscapes or product photography because I dont know how to do them well - if I wanted to do them I would learn first, take bookings second. Far too many wanabees on the SWPP forum calling themselves photographers, taking bookings and doing a crap job.

I would have respect if you had done the training or were committing to it.

Freedom of Speech - Bless it
Mike

Careful Mike, you are starting to sound like certain wedding photographers. Soon you will be complaining that you cant charge huge sums of money due to cheaper togs ruining the business
 
Careful Mike, you are starting to sound like certain wedding photographers. Soon you will be complaining that you cant charge huge sums of money due to cheaper togs ruining the business

Matt,

whilst I am happy to help anybody that wants to learn how to do events in a professional manner I do get annoyed at the chancers that take bookings without the knowledge or skills to do the event properly which can often mean that organisers then will not book event photographers in the future.

Just seen an event photographer today convince 2 clients to have an event photographer back on site after DE Photo screwed them around. Brides generally have one big wedding and it wont affect future bookings hence why I am happy to ensure my competition are professional - if they are so good and attract more clients they will inevitably need people to take on the extra bookings.

Yes I am also against pratts that sell at low prices, they devalue everybodys work including their own. Start the way you mean to go on - be professional. Helping others, helps me.

Mike
 
Dave,

I will not quote from another forum however I understood that you had already done a couple of events like this before, just not printed on site before.

Must of misunderstood but I will repeat what I wrote earlier - if you are an Event Photographer or aim to develop into Event Photography then there is a wealth of experience on TP and there is a dedicated forum you are aware of exclusively for Event photography. There is also some genuine advice available on SWPP however as you have seen the talent base of event photography has been drastically reduced over the past 12 months.

If you are or are becoming an Event Guy I think you have access to a broad church (no pun) of religious groups who hold events small and large on a regular basis and for differing reasons.

Ian
 
Matt,

whilst I am happy to help anybody that wants to learn how to do events in a professional manner I do get annoyed at the chancers that take bookings without the knowledge or skills to do the event properly which can often mean that organisers then will not book event photographers in the future.

Just seen an event photographer today convince 2 clients to have an event photographer back on site after DE Photo screwed them around. Brides generally have one big wedding and it wont affect future bookings hence why I am happy to ensure my competition are professional - if they are so good and attract more clients they will inevitably need people to take on the extra bookings.

Yes I am also against pratts that sell at low prices, they devalue everybodys work including their own. Start the way you mean to go on - be professional. Helping others, helps me.

Mike

I agree completely, I spend at least 2 days a week clearing up after 'experts' who know naff all at the industry im in, but your delivery method needs a spruce up, a couple of complaints have been made about your post..please be mindful of others.
 
and a warning to everyone, please have consideration for others when posting, an interesting debate can be derailed fast by rudeness or trying to deflect the points, keep it level please.
 
Matt,

your forum, your rules but there was no winding up intended - having tried every other method to help the complainant in their quest for understanding what events are and why real event photographers are seeking for others that purport to be trade authorities to understand what event photography is, the quote highlighted the need for photographers not to say that they do events without the requisite knowledge. We must look inwards before we can look outwards.

Some of the other comments were tongue in cheek
 
Matt,

your forum, your rules but there was no winding up intended - having tried every other method to help the complainant in their quest for understanding what events are and why real event photographers are seeking for others that purport to be trade authorities to understand what event photography is, the quote highlighted the need for photographers not to say that they do events without the requisite knowledge. We must look inwards before we can look outwards.

Some of the other comments were tongue in cheek

Mike did you not think it proper to ask my permission to use my post from another forum before you quoted it?

God bless
Dave
 
Dave,

you placed those comments in a place that is accesible to many people so if you did not want people to read them you should not have posted them - I was not making public, comments that were private in nature - your comments were being used to answer your own question.

You do not need permission to quote somebody else, what I did not do was state who it was I quoted from as I did not want to cause embarrasment (for which I apologise). I will in fututure ensure that if I feel the need to quote such comments I will attribute the comments, after I have sought the permissions of the mods to use the quote.

Mike
 
I think it might be a good time for everyone here to take a step back and calm it.

This thread has now run to 31 pages, I think it could be opportune to draw some conclusions from the mass of what has been said. Can we honestly expect anyone arriving on TP to read through this amount of talk and make sense of it?

I don't want to ruin the party, but I think common sense demands a fresh look at this before it degenerates or loses it's plot. That said there has been some very good points raised and discussed, and I think some thanks has to be given here to the mods that they have allowed it to continue.

Lets not ruin it.

Tin hat and gas mask on. :geek:
 
I think it might be a good time for everyone here to take a step back and calm it.

This thread has now run to 31 pages, I think it could be opportune to draw some conclusions from the mass of what has been said. Can we honestly expect anyone arriving on TP to read through this amount of talk and make sense of it?

I don't want to ruin the party, but I think common sense demands a fresh look at this before it degenerates or loses it's plot. That said there has been some very good points raised and discussed, and I think some thanks has to be given here to the mods that they have allowed it to continue.

Lets not ruin it.

Tin hat and gas mask on. :geek:

:plus1:

This thread is about the SWPP, not individuals.
 
Matt,

your forum, your rules but there was no winding up intended - having tried every other method to help the complainant in their quest for understanding what events are and why real event photographers are seeking for others that purport to be trade authorities to understand what event photography is, the quote highlighted the need for photographers not to say that they do events without the requisite knowledge. We must look inwards before we can look outwards.

Some of the other comments were tongue in cheek

Noted. thank you.(y)
 
Mike did you not think it proper to ask my permission to use my post from another forum before you quoted it?

God bless
Dave

Shame nobody thought so show me the same courtesty before posting this on SWPP, several times.
 
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