Shooting and Explosions in Paris

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Actually our PM did request support for this several years ago ;)

Which at the time may have been the right thing to do, that is put it to Parliament to vote. This time however, there is no need for Parliament's support.
 
To be fair, a heavy military response has always been required to destroy as many IS as possible and to reclaim their occupied land. Just a shame events such as Friday is needed in which to intensify efforts.
Just wondering when the rest of the world will grow a pair including us. Ironically, where's Tony Blair and George Bush when you need them?!
Not quite as simple as that though is it, we've been here before. They're not wearing big ISIS badges.
 
Not quite as simple as that though is it, we've been here before. They're not wearing big ISIS badges.

Correct - it'll never be simple, but I'm sure through our modern intelligence and co-operation networks we can step up our efforts.
 
Not quite as simple as that though is it, we've been here before. They're not wearing big ISIS badges.
Actually they are! We just need to get better at recognising them, cut off the funding stream and strike at the core.
 
Actually they are! We just need to get better at recognising them, cut off the funding stream and strike at the core.
I think the answer is funding most definitely. This should be the first thing they should have done yet they haven't and probably won't either.

Are we killing as many civilians as isis are?The bombs have to stop. How can we possible get them on our side. We need to admit to them we've made mistakes and show we want to rectify them and protect them.

Its a four way battle going on its a mess, where do we even start?
 
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We're killing as many civilians as isis have.
I doubt that, very much. They're at it night and day, it's their full time job and their hobby and of course they're not just killing, they're raping, torturing and enslaving.

But of course you could convince me otherwise if you can provide stats or other evidence that us evil Brits are killing more civilians than ISIS.
 
I doubt that, very much. They're at it night and day, it's their full time job and their hobby and of course they're not just killing, they're raping, torturing and enslaving.

But of course you could convince me otherwise if you can provide stats or other evidence that us evil Brits are killing more civilians than ISIS.
Yeah stupid comment i should have said are we killing as many? I've corrected it.

I'm not saying we are evil i'm posing questions.
Are we helping?
Are creating as many as we are killing?
 
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I'm not saying we are evil i'm posing questions. Are we helping? Are creating as many as we are killing?

Simple fact is IS are an evil bunch of Motherf***ers who need to be removed from the face of this planet. If that means that the process of removing these sub humans includes losing civilian lives then I'm afraid that's a cost worth paying. We're already losing people on the streets in our cities, IS are murdering innocent people on a daily basis.
I don't think we have any other choice.
 
I'm not saying we are evil i'm posing questions. Are we helping? Are creating as many as we are killing?

You said "We're killing as many civilians as isis are" and I have a problem believing that.

I've seen and heard this sort of claim before and unless you can substantiate it in some half way believable and credible way I think you should withdraw it.
 
killing for peace is like f*****g for chastity
 
You said "We're killing as many civilians as isis are" and I have a problem believing that.

I've seen and heard this sort of claim before and unless you can substantiate it in some half way believable and credible way I think you should withdraw it.
i already had
 
Simple fact is IS are an evil bunch of Motherf***ers who need to be removed from the face of this planet. If that means that the process of removing these sub humans includes losing civilian lives then I'm afraid that's a cost worth paying. We're already losing people on the streets in our cities, IS are murdering innocent people on a daily basis.
I don't think we have any other choice.

I'm pretty sure "we" are trying to avoid civilian casualties. One thing I wasn't a\ware of which came up in an interview recently was that ISIS are covering the roof tops of buildings in Raqqa with civilians so that "we" wont bomb... assuming that ISIS do this because "we" wont bomb that doesn't fit with "us" killing more civilians than ISIS.
 
What?

Withdrawn the claim or provided evidence to back it up?

Humour me here will you?
I changed it to a question have we killed as many as isis? We have no numbers on how many civillians isis have killed either.
 
killing for peace is like f*****g for chastity

Unfortunately faced with people who want to kill YOU I don't see any real alternative to killing them, at least in the short term. We can work on the hearts and minds thing and respect their culture over time but the fact that they'll be replaced by equally homicidal hordes instantly has little relevance and we have to save whoever is imminently about to die by killing... until some instantly effective non lethal technology is available. Maybe Gene Roddenberry has a stun gun design he can pass on to the police.
 
I changed it to a question have we killed as many as isis? We have no numbers on how many civillians isis have killed either.

And well done to you for doing that but I wonder why you initially posted as you did?

As I said, I've read and heard similar claims before and I do wonder what leads people to believe and propagate them.

PS. Actually, I see your post is still there...
 
Actually they are! We just need to get better at recognising them, cut off the funding stream and strike at the core.


Do you really think that our politicians are going to stare the leaders of Saudi Arabia, Qatar and quite probably Turkey in the face, and tell them to stop funding ISIL (buying their oil and supplying them with weapons)?
The proposal four years ago in parliament, was not to bomb ISIL, but to bomb Assad - we and the US were the ones helping the Syrian "rebels" back then, most of whom then joined or were already members of ISIL, Al Qaeda or Al Nusra.
 
I'm pretty sure "we" are trying to avoid civilian casualties. One thing I wasn't a\ware of which came up in an interview recently was that ISIS are covering the roof tops of buildings in Raqqa with civilians so that "we" wont bomb... assuming that ISIS do this because "we" wont bomb that doesn't fit with "us" killing more civilians than ISIS.

Of course we try to avoid civilian casualties but unfortunately it isn't always possible.
The tactics of human shields shouldn't deter us from doing the right thing - sometimes you have to sacrifice a few to save more.
 
Of course we try to avoid civilian casualties but unfortunately it isn't always possible.
The tactics of human shields shouldn't deter us from doing the right thing - sometimes you have to sacrifice a few to save more.

I think/hope that the situation will have to get a lot worse before our politicians will give the go ahead to bomb a building covered in civilian human shields.
 
One little story I've not told anyone before...

A former muslim GF of mine once told me she'd be a suicide bomber.

We do need to understand the mentality of people willing to kill a restaurant full of civilian men women and children eating dinner with their friends and loved ones and how this mentality is arrived at. There's a part of my that weeps for the brainwashed and the desperate and the angry but there's also a part of me that wishes that they'd look a little closer to home for the cause of their angst as I'm pretty sure it's true that the number one cause of violent death, rape, torture, enslavement and oppression of muslims isn't western civilisation, it's other muslims.
 
They justify these attacks by claiming they are in revenge for "strikes against Muslims in the lands of the Caliphate", so in response we launch strikes against Muslims (albeit sadistic murdering scum in their case) in the lands of the Caliphate. Does no one see the vicious circle here?
 
I think/hope that the situation will have to get a lot worse before our politicians will give the go ahead to bomb a building covered in civilian human shields.

I think that's the difficulty in measuring what's acceptable and what isn't.
 
They justify these attacks by claiming they are in revenge for "strikes against Muslims in the lands of the Caliphate", so in response we launch strikes against Muslims (albeit sadistic murdering scum in their case) in the lands of the Caliphate. Does no one see the vicious circle here?

But that isn't the language being used though is it? These are murderous terrorists intent on killing anyone who disagrees or fails to convert to their faith.

Statement from IS.

'In the name of Allah, the All Merciful, the Very Merciful.

The Very High All Said: “It is He who expelled the ones who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture from their homes at the first gathering. You did not think they would leave, and they thought that their fortresses would protect them from Allah ; but [the decree of] Allah came upon them from where they had not expected, and He cast terror into their hearts [so] they destroyed their houses by their [own] hands and the hands of the believers. So take warning, O people of vision.” Surah 59 verse 2.

In a blessed attack for which Allah facilitated the causes for success, a faithful group of the soldiers of the Caliphate, may Allah dignify it and make it victorious, launched out, targeting the capital of prostitution and obscenity, the carrier of the banner of the Cross in Europe, Paris… Youths who divorced the world and went to their enemy seeking to be killed in the cause of Allah, in support of His religion and His Prophet, Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him, and his charges, and to put the nose of His enemies in the ground. So they were honest with Allah, we consider them thusly, and Allah conquered through their hands and cast in the hearts of the Crusaders horror in the middle of their land, where eight brothers wrapped in explosive belts and armed with machine rifles, targeted sites that were accurately chosen in the heart of the capital of France, including the Stade de France during the match between the Crusader German and French teams, where the fool of France, Francois Hollande, was present.

[They also targeted] the Bataclan Conference Center, where hundreds of apostates had gathered in a profligate prostitution party, and other areas in the 10th and 11th and 18th [arrondissements] and in a coordinated fashion. So Paris shook under their feet, and its streets were tight upon them, and the result of the attacks was the death of no less than 100 Crusaders and the wounding of more than those, and unto Allah is all praise and gratitude.

Allah had granted our brothers their wish and gave them what they loved, for they detonated their belts in the gatherings of the disbelievers after running out of ammunition, we ask Allah to accept them among the martyrs and make us follow them.

Let France and those who walk in its path know that they will remain on the top of the list of targets of the Islamic State, and that the smell of death will never leave their noses as long as they lead the convoy of the Crusader campaign, and dare to curse our Prophet, Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him, and are proud of fighting Islam in France and striking the Muslims in the land of the Caliphate with their planes, which did not help them at all in the streets of Paris and its rotten alleys. This attack is the first of the storm and a warning to those who wish to learn.

Allah is the greatest.

“And to Allah belongs [all] honor, and to His Messenger, and to the believers, but the hypocrites do not know.” Surah 63 verse 8
 
Actually Neil, what I quoted was taken from what you just copies and pasted, so yes, that is the language being used.
 
They justify these attacks by claiming they are in revenge for "strikes against Muslims in the lands of the Caliphate", so in response we launch strikes against Muslims (albeit sadistic murdering scum in their case) in the lands of the Caliphate. Does no one see the vicious circle here?

We liberal westerners need to accept that it really doesn't matter what we do. Bomb them or don't bomb them. It doesn't matter and either way they want to end our way of life and even if we disband our armies and scrap all our bombs and march through the streets chanting "We love you" sooner or later they'll still come... to end our way of life.
 
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Actually Neil, what I quoted was taken from what you just copies and pasted, so yes, that is the language being used.

Yes, but the full statement includes language which fully illustrates that it's not just about our attacks on them.
 
I saw him getting interviewed... and although it's not on that clip I'm pretty sure that when asked if he'd deploy soldiers on the streets to confront terrorists he said that instead of soldiers he'd use policing in the community. Does this mean he'd use community policemen to confront terrorists on the streets of Britain?

What he said has nothing to do with community police confronting terrorists. He was pointing out that if you are relying on heavily armed policemen to shoot and kill terrorists in some kind of running battle on the streets, you have already failed. That scenario is exactly what IS want to be happening in the UK. The smart way to tackle these people is through the use of intelligence, a large part of which is having eyes and ears in the communities where these people take refuge. Community support police are a key part of that.
 
What he said has nothing to do with community police confronting terrorists. He was pointing out that if you are relying on heavily armed policemen to shoot and kill terrorists in some kind of running battle on the streets, you have already failed. That scenario is exactly what IS want to be happening in the UK. The smart way to tackle these people is through the use of intelligence, a large part of which is having eyes and ears in the communities where these people take refuge. Community support police are a key part of that.

I think the point is Corbyn has demonstrated his absolute lack of a basic understanding how the real world works, in normal terms this means you cannot track everyone all of the time.
 
Think I'd rather see a link to the statement than give them MORE online "airtime" by posting it in "glorious technicolour"
 
I think the point is Corbyn has demonstrated his absolute lack of a basic understanding how the real world works, in normal terms this means you cannot track everyone all of the time.

I think that's a very narrow interpretation of what he is saying. Answer me this: we have had virtually no terrorist attacks in the UK. Why? Is it because we have heavily armed police on every street corner ready to blast anything that moves? Or is it because we have large teams of dedicated people working 24/7, gathering intelligence data, analysing it and working with people on the ground in communities? It's clearly the latter. So how is saying that these teams should be boosted and supported demonstrating an absolute lack of basic understanding, as you say?

Did he say we should get rid of the armed response units? No he didn't.
 
I think the point is Corbyn has demonstrated his absolute lack of a basic understanding how the real world works, in normal terms this means you cannot track everyone all of the time.
He played a big part in northern Ireland talks which lead to the good Friday agreement. I would argue he has a bigger understanding than most MP's.
 
I think the point is Corbyn has demonstrated his absolute lack of a basic understanding how the real world works, in normal terms this means you cannot track everyone all of the time.
The more I see and hear of him the more damage I think he'll do to the Labour party if the electorate reject him and them. God knows what damage he'll do if Labour do get elected with him as leader.

I've never agreed with pacifism, it's just not how the world works. It's fine as a principle but what does a pacifist do when a Nazi/ISIS comes for me, you and then them?
 
He played a big part in northern Ireland talks which lead to the good Friday agreement. I would argue he has a bigger understanding than most MP's.
Did he? Good for him but republicans and loyalists are girl guides by todays standards.
 
My thoughts are with the victims and their families more so than anything else at this time.

As for much of what has been said on here, most of you are under the spell of exactly what the extreamist want you to believe.

What you are seeing is a SINGLE THREAD in a massive tapestry that has roots from 600AD and I can tell you now no matter how many bombs and bullets and whatever else is used it will not be overcome. There is a systematic process being operated and most people are completely blind to its creep into every area of our infrastructor. Think of it like a dripping tap. From their pov this is a spiritual battle and they wholly believe they have the advantage because of our ignorance. They have a rigid no compromise mandate that will be implemented at all costs.

Ever heard of the "rop-a-dope"....and the..... "The Cleveland Switcheroo" or now often called "Kansas City Shuffle".

Well both are being played out here on a Global scale in slow motion..........................And most are blind to it.
 
Do you really think that our politicians are going to stare the leaders of Saudi Arabia, Qatar and quite probably Turkey in the face, and tell them to stop funding ISIL (buying their oil and supplying them with weapons)?
The proposal four years ago in parliament, was not to bomb ISIL, but to bomb Assad - we and the US were the ones helping the Syrian "rebels" back then, most of whom then joined or were already members of ISIL, Al Qaeda or Al Nusra.

I've been saying this all along. We need to force car manufacturers to heavily invest into electric tech and stop beating the old horse (combustion engine). They wouldn't listen because of easy money and less work to do.

As soon as our reliance on jihadi oil is reduced (we will need some for power stations and fine chemicals) we can take much harder stance against the terrorist supplies and funding states.
 
Unfortunately faced with people who want to kill YOU I don't see any real alternative to killing them, at least in the short term. We can work on the hearts and minds thing and respect their culture over time but the fact that they'll be replaced by equally homicidal hordes instantly has little relevance and we have to save whoever is imminently about to die by killing... until some instantly effective non lethal technology is available. Maybe Gene Roddenberry has a stun gun design he can pass on to the police.

The point you are missing is the point IS want you to miss - ie that they are not represetantive of all of islam , they are a tiny tiny minority of nutcases - ergo their best chance of winning or at least not losing is to provoke the west into acting rashly and in a way that impacts lots of moderate muslims/non IS supporters and enables them to paint themselves as the representatives of the islamic world against west oppression

the flip side is that our best chance of beating them is not to be so f*****g stupid as to play into their hands - the hearts and minds we need to win are not the tiny minority of headcases but the population that surrounds them and the muslim world at large , and we won't acheive that with western boots on the ground in their holy places or bombing the s*** out of no end of civilians.

We also need to win the battle for the hearts and minds of our own muslim population so that they don't become radicalised - and we won't do that by going the route some imbecilic biffers want to go and persecuting or even interning them... the real irony being that organisations like BF and EDF are doing exactly what IS want, and aiding a cause that they claim to despise.
 
I've been saying this all along. We need to force car manufacturers to heavily invest into electric tech and stop beating the old horse (combustion engine). They wouldn't listen because of easy money and less work to do.

As soon as our reliance on jihadi oil is reduced (we will need some for power stations and fine chemicals) we can take much harder stance against the terrorist supplies and funding states.

That'll never happen due to the preponderance of oil billionaires and associated lobbyists in the states
 
I feel very sad for the people of Paris, to lose so much life in such an pointless way just outlines what the so called IS has now become.

These people are not interested in any form of co-existence with anyone outside of there terribly small self created bubble.

They are only interested in enforcing the will of their delusions through massive extreme levels of violence.

Even my faith is severely tested in these days and I feel now is the time to all band together to end this once and for all.

It is with a sad heart that I now hope all the western alliances form together to truly fight these people and crush them forever and my thoughts and daily prayers will try to make sense of this insanity.
 
Well here we go. Im actually linking to DM article...
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co...-to-beat-terror-then-calm-down-and-think.html

PETER HITCHENS: Really want to beat terror? Then calm down and THINK

This is Peter Hitchens's Mail On Sunday column

Could we please skip the empty bravado? This is a time for grief above all else, and a time to refrain from soundbites and posturing. France – our closest neighbour, oldest friend, beloved rival, what Philip Sidney called ‘that sweet enemy’ – France is stricken, and we should weep with her.

Over the past 40 years or so, most of us have heard quite enough politicians and others pledging to stand firm against terror, hunt down the vile perpetrators, ensure that it never happens again, and the rest.

Then there have been the emergency meetings of grandly titled committees, the crackdowns, the increased surveillance, the billions spent on spying and snooping, not to mention the various wars on terror which have certainly killed a lot of our troops, but never seem to make us any safer. It is remarkably hard to defend yourself against an enemy whose language few of us speak, yet who speaks ours and can move freely in our world, and who is willing, even happy, to die at our hands – or his own – if he can kill us first.



Meanwhile, many of the demands of terror, from the IRA to the Palestinians, have been quietly met. And the extraordinary connections between our supposed ally Saudi Arabia and the worst terrorist incident of all – September 11, 2001 in New York – have been politely ignored.


It’s also worth remembering, as we mourn alongside the French, how many stupid things have been said about them. Remember the long period of macho chest-thumping in which they were idiotically derided as ‘Cheese-eating surrender monkeys’ and it was claimed you couldn’t find any French military victories on the internet?

This was stupid at the time, especially from Americans, whose country would never even have existed if the French (modestly aided by some Americans) hadn’t defeated us British at Yorktown, perhaps the most significant French victory in the history of the world. How does it sound now?

Yet this sort of thing, shouting, table-thumping, threat-making and boasting, is all too often the only outcome of murderous atrocities such as this.

And then there is the rapid casting aside of ancient, wise rules. Our irreplaceable liberty and justice, which took a thousand years to create, are in shreds thanks to hasty and emotive measures that did no good. And now we have the shame of lawless confinement of untried men in Guantanamo, of torture that Englishmen, far fiercer and crueller than we think we are, abandoned as barbaric hundreds of years ago. And we have the horrors of ‘extraordinary rendition’ by secret flights to secret prisons, in which dark things took place. How can we claim to stand for liberty and justice if we do such things?

And we see the dubious and dangerous use of pilotless drones to conduct summary executions of our enemies. Few can be sorry at the death of Mohammed Emwazi (the so-called ‘Jihadi John’), but what precedents are we setting? For the moment, our fanatical foes do not have drones of their own. One day, they will.

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Few will be sad about the death of Mohammed Emwazi (Jihadi John) but the drone strike killing will set a dangerous precedent for our enemies, who don't have drones at the moment but will do one day
A lot of people exult over this event, and those who quietly suggest that it might violate our own principles of law and justice are jostled to one side by super-patriotic breast-beaters (the same sort who used to jeer at the French for being soft). And listen to the words of the mother of James Foley, one of Emwazi’s victims, who in a short and dignified interview epitomised the difference between our civilisation and those who seek to destroy it.

Diane Foley said: ‘It saddens me that here in America, we are celebrating the killing of this deranged, pathetic, young man.’ It gave her no solace. ‘No! Not at all! If the circumstances had been different, Jim probably would have befriended that man and tried to help him’.

She regretted the concentration of resources on revenge rather than on protecting our citizens and helping the vulnerable. ‘I am sorry,’ she said softly. ‘Jim would have been devastated with the whole thing. Jim was a peacemaker. He wanted to know how we could figure out why, why all this is happening.’

Asked if she got a sense of justice from the drone strike, she replied ‘Justice! No. Not at all. Just sad’.

Should we decry this measured, civilised and thoughtful response as foolish softness? It is surely hard to do so, when the person speaking has endured the public, cruel murder of her son, and yet still finds it in her heart to think and say such things. Could it be that she is wiser than the politicians and the security men?

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James Foley was among Emwazi's victims but his mother Diane didn't celebrate the killer's death. She said it was just very 'sad' and that her 'peacemaker' son would have been unhappy about the quest for revenge
After all, let us not forget that Islamist terror has grown in strength and reach, not diminished, since we embarked on our supposedly benevolent interventions in the Muslim world. The Iraq invasion, the Afghan intervention, the wild and brainless enthusiasm with which we greeted the disastrous ‘Arab Spring’, the supposedly humanitarian interference in Libya which turned it into a failed state, the aid and comfort we gave to the rebellion in Syria. Not only have these things failed to prevent terror. They have visited a violent chaos on the whole Muslim world, in which fanatical and grisly death cults thrive and prosper.

And alongside them, there is the enormous migration of desperate young men, from Africa, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, many of them Muslim, some of them no doubt easy recruits for the fanatics.

We pretend to understand these nebulous and varied terror groups, for years placing them under the all-embracing trademark of ‘Al Qaeda’, now insisting they are part of a new and greater menace called ‘ISIS’. The truth is there is no mastermind sitting in a cave issuing orders (though of course someone is always willing to claim responsibility for these outrages after they have happened – and who can be sure if such claims are true?).

That is a James Bond fantasy. And it is also why these things would still be hard to prevent if we turned ourselves into a totalitarian state of surveillance, identity cards, perpetual searches of the innocent – like going through an airport, only all the time.

They don’t work by our rules. They can stay off, or below, our grid. They don’t mind if they die. They will get through.

All we will achieve by adopting such methods is to make ourselves miserable without making ourselves safe.

Our task is now first to mourn with our French friends and allies. And after that, to think rather than to shout. Rhetoric and militancy have not done very much for us in the past. Why should it be different this time?

Measure
Measure
 
And an interesting 5 minute history of Syria / ISIS

 
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