Shooting at Florida School

MatBin said:
The tread or the killing?
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These school shootings in the USA. No time for grief before the next one comes along. It doesn't make any sense to be shocked any more. It's been routine for some time. The plans are underway for the next one as we speak.
 
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Isn't the argument supposed to be that most gun owners are good guys and having good guys with guns is supposed to prevent this type of thing happening........

Working really well isn't it........ [emoji849][emoji849]
 
Due to the high level of gun deaths and poor health coverage, the World Economic Forum has downgraded the USA to sh!thole country.
 
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the usual "but if we ban guns, they will use knives" argument being trotted out (everyone is america is a trained knife thrower? and could kill 56 people from a hotel room window? no? ok so not a valid point) - that it's a mental health issue (yes the mental health of the people who say nothing can be done) - more people in the school should have been armed (yes because that wouldn't cause more confusion and gunfire leading to more deaths and EVERYONE who has a gun will be able to handle the stress and adrenaline of an active shooter situation, what could possibly go wrong) - they are deluded.

I have seen two videos - it's kind of crazy that people were filming during all of this, but i guess thats the way it is now - one showed swat team (or whoever they were) coming into classroom to clear the room, all the kids putting their hands up - some shaky so violently - and one which i saw this morning which i really should not have watched (as it had a warning) but one that all these NRA f*** wits should see (this was the facebook page of someone who lives not far away in florida, is a teacher and has two kids - so imagine the fear) - of kids being cleared from a class room, having to walk past their school friends lying dead in the hallway, blood everywhere.

thoughts and prayers, thoughts and prayers. it's so f***ed up. imagine having to send your kids off to school with this looming every day, imagine going anywhere with this looming - the cinema, anywhere - i was in the states a few months after the cinema shooting and i remember feeling unbelievably vunerable when we happened to go to the cinema - how do they live every day like this? And then there's the medical bills that will most likely cripple/bankrupt an average family if their injured kid was lucky enough to survive - who the f*** would want to live in america? i can't believe i even considered it. toxic.
 
dan_yell said:
the usual "but if we ban guns, they will use knives" argument being trotted out (everyone is america is a trained knife thrower? and could kill 56 people from a hotel room window? no? ok so not a valid point) - that it's a mental health issue (yes the mental health of the people who say nothing can
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Problem is they do use knives as well, maybe not on a mass killing scale, but they still use them. Recently a work colleagues sister was murdered in America. She was walking home and a local bloke with mental health issues, just ran up to her and stabbed her multiple times screaming something about she deserved it, even though she was unknown to him. Neighbours heard the shouting and ran outside to find the woman dying in the arms of the attacker.
 
The thing I find incredulous about this is, if the media is to be believed, that people in the US can make any claim that the "freedom" to own guns and the amount of guns out there is not the root cause of this. And that according to media Trump is putting blame on friends and neighbours for not spotting the stability of the gunman.

The US and RSA have some of the highest rates of gun related deaths in the world and have the highest level of public gun ownership.
 
I've been meaning to make a video for a while on America's gun culture, and especially after Vegas. I made a quick one last night
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR6DEkl-TJw


I think we all know that America will NEVER ban guns. They all scream about their rights and the second amendment. Then there will always be the financial argument. For a start, I believe the NRA was the biggest contributor for Trump's presidential campaign. That aside, imagine how much money the government would lose in taxes from the sales of guns!

As I say in my video, if they (America) ever do decide to ban or restrict guns, it will be a long, and slow process, but it can be done. No-one needs an assault rifle. NO-ONE.
 
RandomlySet said:
I've been meaning to make a video for a while on America's gun culture, and especially after Vegas. I made a quick one last night
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR6DEkl-TJw


I think we all know that America will NEVER ban guns. They all scream about their rights and the second amendment. Then there will always be the financial argument. For a start, I believe the NRA was the biggest contributor for Trump's presidential campaign. That aside, imagine how much money the government would lose in taxes from the sales of guns!

As I say in my video, if they (America) ever do decide to ban or restrict guns, it will be a long, and slow process, but it can be done. No-one needs an assault rifle. NO-ONE.
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The 2nd amendment was written in 1791,at a time when nutcases used a single shot musket, if you produced an assault rifle,like the one used yesterday back then you would have been burned at the stake for being a witch. An NRA spokesperson this morning was interviewed regarding the latest school shooting, their response was " good people should be trained to defend others in such a situation" ....deluded, totally deluded.
 
These are some of the reasons why NOTHING WILL CHANGE in the US with regard to restricting/banning guns. The first two videos blame mental illness, but the Ted Nugent interview (which American commentators think showed Piers Morgan in a bad light) gives an insight to the mindset of mad, aggressive Americans. Ted Nugent is a raving lunatic. If the US kept the gun culture to their country, then it wouldn't be so bad, but they are exporting violence to the rest of the World. They are addicted to weapons of every kind, and latest reports show that around 54% of their annual budget is on military expenditure.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4WnmfOfirM


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4pdnHKfEwc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHxorml1nHk
 
The thing that is just totally crap about this sad killings is, everyone is so quick to jump on the Mental Health side. Millions of folk around the world suffer from Mental Health issues and live a good life, me included along with past famous folk and ex presidents. We don`t go and and kill as many people as we can, the lad who murdered these others was dumped by his ex girlfriend and he then fell out with her new boyfriend plus being kicked out of school, he just flipped, so IMO it has got NOTHING at all to do with Mental Health :)
 
nilagin said:
Problem is they do use knives as well, maybe not on a mass killing scale, but they still use them. Recently a work colleagues sister was murdered in America. She was walking home and a local bloke with mental health issues, just ran up to her and stabbed her multiple times screaming something about she deserved it, even though she was unknown to him. Neighbours heard the shouting and ran outside to find the woman dying in the arms of the attacker.
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No one is saying that gun control will eliminate all deaths, just as making murder a crime doesn't stop people committing it - that would be ridiculous. The idea is some gun control can at least HELP and save the lives of SOME people - this shoulder shrug 'well we can't stop it all, so let's not bother at all' approach is repulsive. The idea of ALL laws is to MINIMIZE the negatives, seat belts/air bags don't stop all car deaths, birth control doesn't stop 100% of all unwanted pregnancies, my hairdresser cannot eliminate ALL grey, my indigestion tablets aren't effective ALL of the time, antibacterial cleaner doesn't kill 100% of germs, my critical illness cover on my mortgage wont cover EVERYTHING that could stop me being able to pay my mortgage, I won't go on....you do these things to MITIGATE, some things you just can't eradicate, but that's doesn't mean you don't try - where is the common sense?

It's not like there isn't examples of the success of gun control after mass shootings and the effect it had (UK, OZ) - it's not "WHAAAAT WHO COULD IMAGINE SUCH A THING" - ask them, they can help, they've done it, no two situations are the same but there WILL be some common ground.
 
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Dave70D said:
The thing that is just totally crap about this sad killings is, everyone is so quick to jump on the Mental Health side. Millions of folk around the world suffer from Mental Health issues and live a good life, me included along with past famous folk and ex presidents. We don`t go and and kill as many people as we can, the lad who murdered these others was dumped by his ex girlfriend and he then fell out with her new boyfriend plus being kicked out of school, he just flipped, so IMO it has got NOTHING at all to do with Mental Health :)
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90
 
I'm incredulous at how many are calling for armed guards in schools, or for arming teachers and admin.

Bandaid on a sucking chest wound, springs to mind.

Surely addressing the US's massive social disaster that is gun ownership for pretty much anyone is what they should be doing.

But no, let's tool everyone up and wait for the next OK corral.

They put way too much stock in a 228 year old piece of paper and refuse to admit that society changes, so the rules need to too.

These shootings aren't even shocking anymore. :(
 
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Sad but all too true.
 
On an economic scale the loss of tax on gun sales will effectively be zero, if people don't buy guns they will buy something else that's taxed, so loss of income of tax will be zero. There is no economic argument.
I worked with a few Yanks a couple of years ago in the UK, totally besotted with gun ownership, madness.
 
RandomlySet said:
For a start, I believe the NRA was the biggest contributor for Trump's presidential campaign.
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Peddling blatant untruths, which you clearly haven't bothered to check, doesn't help your argument.

The Trump presidential campaign raised a total of $333 million, of which just under $1 million was from pro-gun organisations [1]. To put that in context, as if $333 million isn't sufficient context, the Walt Disney Company contributed over $5 million to Trump's campaign [2].

By all means attack Trump's position on this. But do it on the basis of real facts, not made-up lies. Or else just shut up. Because this isn't helping.

[1] https://www.opensecrets.org/news/issues/guns?utm_campaign=guns-021518

[2] https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/contributors?id=N00023864
 
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StewartR said:
Peddling blatant untruths, which you clearly haven't bothered to check, doesn't help your argument.

The Trump presidential campaign raised a total of $333 million, of which just under $1 was from pro-gun organisations [1]. To put that in context, as if $333 million isn't sufficient context, the Walt Disney Company contributed over $5 million to Trump's campaign [2].

By all means attack Trump's position on this. But do it on the basis of real facts, not made-up lies. Or else just shut up. Because this isn't helping.

[1] https://www.opensecrets.org/news/issues/guns?utm_campaign=guns-021518

[2] https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/contributors?id=N00023864
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I'm not attacking Trump's position. My post says "I believe...." I thought I'd heard this mention after Vegas - apologies if it's not entirely true.
 
andy700 said:
They are addicted to weapons of every kind, and latest reports show that around 54% of their annual budget is on military expenditure.
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Peddling blatant untruths, which you clearly haven't bothered to check, doesn't help your argument.

The US budget for 2018, as proposed by President Trump, contains $4094 billion of spending.[1] Of this, somewhere between $597 billion and $886 billion was spent on defence.[2] The wide range here depends on what you count as "defence". The Department Of Defense core budget is $597 billion, and the other stuff includes items such as Veterans' Administration, Homeland Security, and FBI Cyber-security - which I would say is "defence" but not "military". But even using the highest figure of $886 billion, that's still only about 22% of the budget, which is nowhere near 54%.

By all means criticise US gun culture. But do it on the basis of real facts, not made-up lies. Or else just shut up. Because this isn't helping.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_United_States_federal_budget

[2] https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-military-budget-components-challenges-growth-3306320
 
RandomlySet said:
My post says "I believe...." I thought I'd heard this mention after Vegas - apologies if it's not entirely true.
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Well, it's not even partially true.

I hope you appreciate the folly of broadcasting "facts" which are actually lies. If I've helped you, or someone else reading this, be a bit more skeptical about believing what you read and checking your sources, then that's a good result.
 
I've just skimmed this thread so sorry if this has already been said.

I can't see how "they" can ban guns... guns are too ingrained in their psyche and if they ban sales there are just too many in circulation for that to matter and if we could wave a magic wand and confiscate them all they'd be replaced by guns smuggled in from abroad or made in back yard factories.

The change surely has to be through a combination of restrictions, controls and a hearts and minds campaign. Aren't there actually more guns per head of population in some countries that don't have this record of ongoing mass shooting? Switzerland maybe...

There's something dreadfully wrong in America but I don't think that trying to ban guns tomorrow will be the answer as even if there was the political will to try to do it large numbers of the population will just ignore it.
 
StewartR said:
Well, it's not even partially true.

I hope you appreciate the folly of broadcasting "facts" which are actually lies. If I've helped you, or someone else reading this, be a bit more skeptical about believing what you read and checking your sources, then that's a good result.
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As you say, Believe facts which is good. My facts are a young lad got a gun and shot school kids, my other fact is NOTHING will be done at all :)
 
Dave70D said:
my other fact is NOTHING will be done at all :)
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That's conjecture not FACT, very probably true that nothing will be done but that doesnt make it a fact (yet).
FACT is by definition past tense, so you may be correct that nothing yet has been done so it's a fact in terms of a very short time period, but surely too soon to be either accurate or time to judge what if anything has been done.

Matt
 
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MatBin said:
That's conjecture not FACT, very probably true that nothing will be done but that doesnt make it a fact (yet).
FACT is by definition past tense, so you may be correct that nothing yet has been done so it's a fact in terms of a very short time period, but surely too soon to be either accurate or time to judge what if anything has been done.

Matt
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Well for me what I do think that is fact. Looking back on all the mass shootings, has anything being changed on gun laws, I think the answer is NO so thats got to be fact :)
 
Dave70D said:
Well for me what I do think that is fact. Looking back on all the mass shootings, has anything being changed on gun laws, I think the answer is NO so thats got to be fact :)
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What they done so far is nothing or very little that has had any effect and I agree is a fact, let's not pre judge what may happen next.
 
woof woof said:
I can't see how "they" can ban guns... guns are too ingrained in their psyche and if they ban sales there are just too many in circulation for that to matter and if we could wave a magic wand and confiscate them all they'd be replaced by guns smuggled in from abroad or made in back yard factories.

The change surely has to be through a combination of restrictions, controls and a hearts and minds campaign. Aren't there actually more guns per head of population in some countries that don't have this record of ongoing mass shooting? Switzerland maybe...

There's something dreadfully wrong in America but I don't think that trying to ban guns tomorrow will be the answer as even if there was the political will to try to do it large numbers of the population will just ignore it.
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This is the only way the situation in America is going to change, the responsible, decent, law abiding assault rifle owners have to decide to give them up. They need to step forward and say it doesn't matter that I follow all the rules or that I personally am no threat to anyone, for the sake of not having another child shot dead I will give up my weapon if the government will ban ownership. Trying to enforce a ban without the cooperation of owners will only lead to more deaths.

I watch youtube (and enjoy) videos of guys like "InRange" who are hobbyists the same as those who build and fly rc aircraft. They build their own assault rifles and collect others, compete and shoot for fun and are dedicated to gun safety. These are the people who need to put their heads up and agree to end it. They won't though because the culture is so deeply ingrained and the arms business holds so much power in the U.S. there's no political will to try to persuade them.
 
I wonder if mr Trump would experience any change in attitude if a member of his family were to be (god forbid) assasinated.
How would he feel about the empty platitudes of others?
 
Never say never. Things will change. It will presumably take a while. With stumbling blocks along the way. But smart people are already working on it. And eventually the extent of slaughter can be reduced.
 
RandomlySet said:
I've been meaning to make a video for a while on America's gun culture, and especially after Vegas. I made a quick one last night
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR6DEkl-TJw


I think we all know that America will NEVER ban guns. They all scream about their rights and the second amendment. Then there will always be the financial argument. For a start, I believe the NRA was the biggest contributor for Trump's presidential campaign. That aside, imagine how much money the government would lose in taxes from the sales of guns!

As I say in my video, if they (America) ever do decide to ban or restrict guns, it will be a long, and slow process, but it can be done. No-one needs an assault rifle. NO-ONE.
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The AR-15 isn't an assault rifle.
 
MartynK said:
The AR-15 isn't an assault rifle.
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What the actual f***...
There's 15 dead kids and YOU think the salient point is to discuss the classification of the weapon used? A weapon designed for the sole purpose of killing people. You really are scraping the bottom of a very deep vessel, I seriously question your humanity.
 
viv1969 said:
I wonder if mr Trump would experience any change in attitude if a member of his family were to be (god forbid) assasinated.
How would he feel about the empty platitudes of others?
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He would say that the person responsible had mental issues (unless it was a Muslim) and not mention gun laws, because he would be risking his own sponsorhip ($30 milion) through the NRA.
 
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