Shooting in manual

HoppyUK said:
There's a lot of questions there Dez ;)

The bride and groom is a classic dilemma and needs careful exposure to get the best of both. The exposure needs to be set somewhere between the two, and if you then check the histogram you should see a bump on the left (groom) and a bump on the right (bride) with most other things inbetween.

The rule there is not to blow the brides dress, and frankly sod the groom. If the bride's dress is right at the edge of the histogram, there's nothing more you can do anyway (except maybe a dash of fill-flash). Blinkies are your friend in situations like this, and it's very easy to see if they're flashing, and exactly where.

Then you make a decision on whether to compensate or not. In many cases, such as bright reflections off shiny white paintwork perhaps, you will always get blinkies and it would take a big adjustment to eliminate them which would leave the rest of the image badly under-exposed. So you live with it, as the best overal compromise.
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OR
I haven't even looked at what the meter is saying when pointed at the B&G because as I lifted the camera to my eye I locked metering on an 'average' scene. It took a split second, is second nature and if you were watching me you'd probably not have noticed it if you didn't know it was happening.;)
It's more responsive than shooting manual and quicker than compensating a view once framed.
 
Phil V said:
OR
I haven't even looked at what the meter is saying when pointed at the B&G because as I lifted the camera to my eye I locked metering on an 'average' scene. It took a split second, is second nature and if you were watching me you'd probably not have noticed it if you didn't know it was happening.;)
It's more responsive than shooting manual and quicker than compensating a view once framed.
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and gives you an average photograph. :lol::lol:(I am joking before anyone bites my head off)
 
bornagain said:
There you are then Mercurius, take up Les on his generous offer. Also there are plenty of clubs in Somerset and you can pick up a lot from attending competition nights or presentations and listening to critiques.

At my club, Yeovil, a good piece of advice I got was to start by shooting in auto or program mode - works for me.

Phil
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There's no substitute for getting out and practising.
And meeting with other photographers let you see alternative ways of doing things and trying them out.
Keep an eye out for the South Wales TP Loony Meets; they are a friendly helpful bunch and have access to some great scenery.
There's always new things to learn and it's always possible to improve technique.

Yeovil's a good club - nice atmosphere.
During my last visit the discussion did get rather lively! :D
 
boyfalldown said:
and gives you an average photograph. :lol::lol:(I am joking before anyone bites my head off)
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Yes, I know it's a joke, but the point that's coming out of this thread is that the result you get depends only on a) the light, and b) the camera settings.

It's totally irrelevant what mode you used to achieve those settings, or how you read the histogram, or what your interpretation of the Sunny 16 rule right be.
 
HoppyUK said:
Yes, I know it's a joke, but the point that's coming out of this thread is that the result you get depends only on a) the light, and b) the camera settings.

It's totally irrelevant what mode you used to achieve those settings, or how you read the histogram, or what your interpretation of the Sunny 16 rule right be.
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I did say that more then once in the thread :)
 
boyfalldown said:
I did say that more then once in the thread :)
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I know Hugh. Just me being pedantic really - didn't want anyone to lose the message. Cheers :)
 
Many thanks to all for your contributions to this debate.

I am guessing that the intent of learning manual here is to get a physical realisation of the theory behind exposure, and how ISO, shutter and aperture interact.
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You nailed it for me with this. It's the direct experience of controlling the variables that is important for me rather than betting the farm on the on-board chip.

Ps Note to the OP

Im in Somerset and free most weekends, should you fancy a meet and shoot day, any Saturday is good for me
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Les 325: thanks for the offer. I'll PM you separately.


Keep an eye out for the South Wales TP Loony Meets; they are a friendly helpful bunch and have access to some great scenery.
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Duncan: thanks for the reference. Personally would prefer somewhere more local with the price of fuel. Hope the suggestion for a Bristol meet gets off the ground.

Of course good photographs depend on your ability to look and see. But that's a whole different ball game which modes etc can't really help with. Perhaps there's an app out there.... :)
 
KIPAX said:
and No

Techincally.. however if you look at it from another point of view.. It will NOT mean you have the exposure you want +2 .. If manual is set because you dont trust one of the other modes for whatever reason (shooting into sun etc) then the biggest advice you can have shooting manual is to totally ignore the exposure meter while shooting..if we are ignoring it then it wont be perfect exposure+2 will it ?

If you follow :)
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Nope! Didn't follow that at all....
 
And maybe read a book or two that gives you some pointers behing what makes a good composition. A lot more to it that rule of thirds! Most people will know when they see a good photo but maybe know really think about why they like it.

The Photographers Eye is pretty good and covers each aspect in a couple of pages with photos to explain and show the difference approaches.

It is the aspect I struggle with and is the hardest thing to learn. I am very geeky so learning about technicalities of exposure, how cameras work etc,. is enjoyable to me so comes fairly easy. What makes a good shot is another matter. It helps to know someone who has a good eye and will openly give feedback. Luckily my wife has a very good eye and gives very blunt feedback "why have you put all that crap on Flickr" for example :eek:

She has a very good eye but no technical interest or understanding. All she really needed to understand for a lot of her shots was was Aperture (which I explained 10 times - have to be succinct else she glazes over after a minute). She just takes the camera her dad gave her (a Sony A700 with 50 prime) and consistently produces a a better photograph than me in same situation with no desire to change camera or lens (bet we wish we were all a bit more like that!)
You will never find her pixel peeping or complaining about IQ, it's the feeling the image gives overall that matters.

That is the part people are born with that some of us have to put a lot of effort into to try can catch up...
 
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shaylou said:
Nope! Didn't follow that at all....
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question was asked.. if shooting manual and the exposure indicator showed 2 notches to the right.. is it the same as dialing in for exposure compensation...POAH answer was yes.. which is correct...

BUT its not correct at the time of taking the picture because your shooting in manual you wouldnt have got the expsure info from the actual scene your shooting (otherwise why manual ?) its correct that it would be 2 notches over/under if pointing at the scene you got the exposure info from..

if you simply point the camera at a bright white sunny day wedding dress in manual mode and it shows perfect exposure -2..its probably not perfect exposure -2

my point being.. when using manual the exposure bar is only any use when taking the exposure reading (not normaly from the subject your shooting).. not when tkaing the picture.. at the time of taking the picture you should ignore anyhting the exposure bar tells you..

probably no clearer is it? :)
 
Jayst84 said:
Learn about your subjects, and shoot what you care about. Taking nicely exposed pictures is easy.
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lets hope he doesnt like cricket or ice hockey then..or a hundred/thousand other things... or your fact about taking nicely exposed pictures is easy... will be a tad confusing to him :)
 
KIPAX said:
lets hope he doesnt like cricket or ice hockey then..or a hundred/thousand other things... or your fact about taking nicely exposed pictures is easy... will be a tad confusing to him :)
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I don't see why it would be. Learn the basics as have been explained several times in this thread, bit of practice, and it is pretty straight forward. Even easier when you have a big shiny LCD to show you what you're doing.
 
interesting thread,
being new to DSLR cameras, it seems a mine field with all the different settings, i sort of settle for A mode for general stuff and s for movement,
in manual,
if i dial in the centre of light meter, then either go + or - in cameras light meter will this give me exsposure compensation, say on a day like to-day overcast i dial in centre on light meter then +1 this gives me the same as, exsposure compensation in other modes,
 
I'd hate to be a bore but the camera manual taught me the theory & using the camera I could put that knowledge into practise. Shooting in Manual never produces amazing photographs from the off-set but I've found my work dramatically improved once I'd mastered manual exposures.
 
Very good thread, interesting reading, but most of my subjects are fast moving in non constant lighting (airplanes, animals, BIF Etc), so for now I'll just carry on with TV and AV and just the occasional experimentation with M. Thanks to all the above for the tips though, they'll be used when possible.
 
Jayst84 said:
Learn about your subjects, and shoot what you care about. Taking nicely exposed pictures is easy.
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That is pretty decent advice :}
 
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IamAshlyRose said:
I'd hate to be a bore but the camera manual taught me the theory & using the camera I could put that knowledge into practise. Shooting in Manual never produces amazing photographs from the off-set but I've found my work dramatically improved once I'd mastered manual exposures.
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Where is the "like button" !
 
IamAshlyRose said:
...Shooting in Manual never produces amazing photographs from the off-set but I've found my work dramatically improved once I'd mastered manual exposures.
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Viewed a little different perspective - you could have left it with
"I've found my work dramatically improved once I'd mastered exposures"

Because it doesn't matter what mode you use - as long as you are learning exposure, you can be an idiot using Manual (just centre the meter), or a Genius using Program (read the scene by eye and dial in exp comp accurately 1st time), as I said in my post earlier. These are not the right or wrong ways because of exposure modes or tricks or electronics - they're based on knowledge and skill.

And IMHO, one mode doesn't teach you this better than any other - what teaches us is reading, practising and learning from our mistakes, as you've found. However you've attributed some of that success to Manual, whereas I believe you'd have got there with an AV only camera.;)
 
@Phil V I've never used a Histogram or Metre or any of the other tools I've heard mentioned in here. I don't particularly understand them & from theory in college I often thought that they're never accurate for what I wish to capture. I just like being able to control every aspect that I wish to control. My work is never particularly 'conventional' or occasionally even 'correctly' exposed but I always feel confident I've produced a photograph that came from me not my camera.

I can understand where you're coming from. Mu first camera was a basic, manual film SLR & I thoroughly enjoyed working in manual to learn how different exposures worked & since this thread happened to be titled "Shooting in manual" I thought my advice might be relevant. Manual might not be for everyone but it wasn't til I grasped that, that I understood more about exposure. I'd recommend giving it a go. My first post best explains my advice, work from the paper manual that comes in the camera's box & read about different modes yourself.
 
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Some people learn to swim by being thrown into the deep end of the pool (cruel big brothers of mine).
@Phil do use priority modes as way to speed up the process of setting up your exposure? If so I can see your point.

@Ashly using manuel mode definitely helps me understand exposure, why? Because it forces me to take responsibility for my every adjustment and the effect is has on the exposure. This might not be the case for all but it is for me.
 
shaylou said:
Some people learn to swim by being thrown into the deep end of the pool (cruel big brothers of mine).
@Phil do use priority modes as way to speed up the process of setting up your exposure? If so I can see your point.

@Ashly using manuel mode definitely helps me understand exposure, why? Because it [manual] forces me to take responsibility for my every adjustment and the effect is has on the exposure. This might not be the case for all but it is for me.
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That is exactly the point that some folks are trying to make on here.

It is not using manual as such that gets you better pictures, because you can achieve the same settings in any mode. What manual should be doing is forcing you to think about all three key aspects of exposure setting, but you don't necessarily have to be in manual to think!

The flip side is newcomers mistakenly believe that just by using manual and lining up the marker in the viewfinder that they're doing something smart, when in fact it's just the reverse. They're just blindly following what the camera suggests with no thought applied at all.

Alternatively, you could be in any auto mode and apply compensation appropriately, or change the aperture in order to get the shutter speed you want, or adjust ISO to do the same thing. And in all these cases you may be using auto, but actually it's you that's doing the thinking. You actually can't get any more 'manual' than that.
 
i am also confused by my Nikon D90 MANUAL MODE,BUT I DON'T HAVE THE INSTRUCTION BOOK,can somebody send me a link than i can download one copy?thanks in advance
 
IamAshlyRose said:
I'd hate to be a bore but the camera manual taught me the theory & using the camera I could put that knowledge into practise. Shooting in Manual never produces amazing photographs from the off-set but I've found my work dramatically improved once I'd mastered manual exposures.
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I'd actually broadly agree with that, especially the learning about the theory.

The only thing is manual done right does produce amazing photos straight out of camera. Same as the other modes done right can.

To my mind, what manual does better then any of the other modes, is allow you to produce a consistent set of photographs.
 
A wise man once said, "No one is going to look at your beautifully taken and exposed photograph and say; 'If only you'd taken that in manual instead of program mode'.."

Take what works. Learn what doesn't.
 
Nikonite said:
A wise man once said, "No one is going to look at your beautifully taken and exposed photograph and say; 'If only you'd taken that in manual instead of program mode'.."

Take what works. Learn what doesn't.
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Hahaha.
& "Take what works. Learn what doesn't." I like that phrase :}
 
boliston said:
In the days before automatic cameras people had to learn to use manual as there was no other option. I can't see any problem with beginners learning to use manual.
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No. People had to learn light and and how to expose for it.
 
boliston said:
In the days before automatic cameras people had to learn to use manual as there was no other option.
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dod said:
No. People had to learn light and how to expose for it.
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It's all about building a relationship with light. Every relationship is personal to each individual. Develop you're own in which ever way is best for you :} Mine was manual & I'd recommend it but I'd never despite a photographer that prefers not to shoot in manual.
 
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boyfalldown said:
I'd actually broadly agree with that, especially the learning about the theory.

The only thing is manual done right does produce amazing photos straight out of camera. Same as the other modes done right can.

To my mind, what manual does better then any of the other modes, is allow you to produce a consistent set of photographs.
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I think the consistency of manual is what I like. Before going manual I mainly used P mode and I would take a set of pictures in similar light but there would be a range of different exposure settings used which can be annoying if the light has not really changed.
 
boliston said:
I think the consistency of manual is what I like. Before going manual I mainly used P mode and I would take a set of pictures in similar light but there would be a range of different exposure settings used which can be annoying if the light has not really changed.
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This is the crux, in constant lighting, using M would give exactly the same results if you are re-checking your meter when you recompose. You're blaming the lack of consistency on the camera mode, when it's actually your relationship with the meter that's the cause.

In these circumstances, M may be the quickest way to get consistent results, the alternative might be exposure lock. The important thing isn't just that the exposure is consistent, but that it's correct. You need to ensure that you understand the light you're measuring when you set your exposure.
 
Phil V said:
This is the crux, in constant lighting, using M would give exactly the same results if you are re-checking your meter when you recompose. You're blaming the lack of consistency on the camera mode, when it's actually your relationship with the meter that's the cause.

In these circumstances, M may be the quickest way to get consistent results, the alternative might be exposure lock. The important thing isn't just that the exposure is consistent, but that it's correct. You need to ensure that you understand the light you're measuring when you set your exposure.
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you've lost me a little Phil with some of that. Probably the one thing manual does better then all other modes is give a consistent exposure. Lets take as given for the sake of it, that regardless of mode we can all get a correct exposure for the scene.

Take last weekend for example - I'm photographing food demos. The light isn't changing but I'm in a white marquee, with a black stage background and chefs funnily enough dressed in white. I've also had a briefing that means I need to shoot both very tight, and very wide. I also need to be consistent and in this case, as with many others thats pretty vital.

Those large expanses of either white, or black (or a changing combination of the two) are going to confuse the hell out of my meter and if I choose to look at it are sending the needle everywhere :). Exposure comp would just mean much of the time of compensating the wrong exposure.

I could spend 3/4 hour sat there pressing the AE-Lock button, and would of got the same results, but it certainly was far easier to sit in manual mode, not worry once the exposure was correct and get consistent photos all the way.
 
ernesto said:
it's the feeling the image gives overall that matters.

That is the part people are born with that some of us have to put a lot of effort into to try can catch up...
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That's what it's all about isn't it ?
 
boyfalldown said:
Take last weekend for example - I'm photographing food demos. The light isn't changing but I'm in a white marquee, with a black stage background and chefs funnily enough dressed in white. I've also had a briefing that means I need to shoot both very tight, and very wide. I also need to be consistent and in this case, as with many others thats pretty vital.
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Funnily enough - marquees can also be the worst possible conditions for using manual exposure - all depends on the weather outside.
A gorgeous Summer day with fluffy white clouds constantly changes the light level inside the marquee as much as five stops.
Under these conditions, manual exposure is a major challenge.

As said many times in this thread; there's no one size fits all rule.

Most of the time, I use Aperture Priority as aperture is the exposure dimension with the least flexibility and needs to be kept under tight control.
As a general rule of thumb, for best image quality on a DSLR the Aperture needs to be f5.6 to f11.
Large apertures highlight lens imperfections; soft corners, vignetting, chromatic aberration.
Small apertures suffer diffraction; for example, on a crop sensor f16 is softened enough to only be capable of producing a sharp 8" x 10" print.
Nothing wrong using larger or smaller apertures providing it is part of a deliberate creative decision.

I do use Manual Exposure....
If I find myself repeatedly using exposure lock and the the lighting is reasonably constant - then manual exposure is definitely the mode to use.
 
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boyfalldown said:
you've lost me a little Phil with some of that. Probably the one thing manual does better then all other modes is give a consistent exposure. Lets take as given for the sake of it, that regardless of mode we can all get a correct exposure for the scene.

Take last weekend for example - I'm photographing food demos. The light isn't changing but I'm in a white marquee, with a black stage background and chefs funnily enough dressed in white. I've also had a briefing that means I need to shoot both very tight, and very wide. I also need to be consistent and in this case, as with many others thats pretty vital.

Those large expanses of either white, or black (or a changing combination of the two) are going to confuse the hell out of my meter and if I choose to look at it are sending the needle everywhere :). Exposure comp would just mean much of the time of compensating the wrong exposure.

I could spend 3/4 hour sat there pressing the AE-Lock button, and would of got the same results, but it certainly was far easier to sit in manual mode, not worry once the exposure was correct and get consistent photos all the way.
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That's the point, in those circumstances I'd have shot Manual too.:thumbs: I'm not some kind of AV Fascist.;)

BUT, remember this is Talk Basic, and we're seeing an awful lot of people who are being coerced into shooting Manual without any understanding of Why.:thinking:

In your situation last week, they may not have realised what was happening with the reflectivity of the scene shot to shot, and may well have adjusted their settings. They're shooting Manual - so it must be right? :cool: But they end up with horribly inconsistent results.:'(

You can hear their questions now, or they wouldn't even bother coming back to ask - because they'd been told to shoot Manual, they'd got rubbish results - so it must be their fault :shake:- or maybe there's a problem with their gear? Perhaps they need to buy a 5d to improve their photography, but not a Mk1 because there aren't enough MP's, and not the Mk2 because of the horrible banding issues. And all of this based on the truth - as provided right here on TP!:nuts:

Which is why I keep saying - it's not the exposure mode that's important - it's understanding your meter.:thumbs:
 
Phil V said:
That's the point, in those circumstances I'd have shot Manual too.:thumbs: I'm not some kind of AV Fascist.;)

BUT, remember this is Talk Basic, and we're seeing an awful lot of people who are being coerced into shooting Manual without any understanding of Why.:thinking:

In your situation last week, they may not have realised what was happening with the reflectivity of the scene shot to shot, and may well have adjusted their settings. They're shooting Manual - so it must be right? :cool: But they end up with horribly inconsistent results.:'(

You can hear their questions now, or they wouldn't even bother coming back to ask - because they'd been told to shoot Manual, they'd got rubbish results - so it must be their fault :shake:- or maybe there's a problem with their gear? Perhaps they need to buy a 5d to improve their photography, but not a Mk1 because there aren't enough MP's, and not the Mk2 because of the horrible banding issues. And all of this based on the truth - as provided right here on TP!:nuts:

Which is why I keep saying - it's not the exposure mode that's important - it's understanding your meter.:thumbs:
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You forgot about RAW v JPEG, Canon v Nikon, Spot v Evaluative, reflected v incident, full frame v crop, PS v PE, prime v zoom............... :p :nuts:
 
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