Shutter Speeds and Weddings

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Steve_o

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Hi everyone,

Looking for some advice regarding shutter speeds and weddings in particular.

I've been acting as an Assistant Photographer on 2 weddings now (acting as an assistant to different photographers) and I'm really struggling with freezing the slightest motion when capturing people.

I've read various articles on the net that suggest a shutter speed of 1/25. Which I tried at the weekend (shooting a wedding) and I've looked back and whilst the exposure was correct, it still wasn't enough to freeze motion. The slightest head turn, arm movement etc ruins the whole photo.

I was attempting to capture natural shots of everyone enjoying themselves. But it never comes off as planned.

I tried to photograph the composed shots (with the main photographer). Bride, Groom and Family etc. But again, the slightest movement is blurred. For these I used Av mode and changed the aperture.

Can anyone give me any advice please? I'm really struggling and I'd love to be able to capture people properly. Hopefully with the intention of becoming a wedding photographer. I understand I have a lot to learn so I'm under no illusion that this will happen overnight.

Many thanks experts

Steve
 
Steve_o said:
I've read various articles on the net that suggest a shutter speed of 1/25. Which I tried at the weekend (shooting a wedding) and I've looked back and whilst the exposure was correct, it still wasn't enough to freeze motion. The slightest head turn, arm movement etc ruins the whole photo.
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Is this a typo, Steve, or did you really mean 1/25? If you did, then it's far to slow to capture people without seeing movement.

Bob
 
what lens ae you using??

in logic you need to shorten the amount of time the camera takes to take the photo, so adjust your shutter accordingly... this would mean either you need to open up your aperture a little more (if not already on widest/lowest number aperture setting already) or up the iso level..

what scenarios have you shot in and how is the quality of the lighting etc?? this would play a big part too
 
1/25 is far too slow for anything!
 
Canon Bob said:
Is this a typo, Steve, or did you really mean 1/25? If you did, then it's far to slow to capture people without seeing movement.

Bob
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Sorry it is indeed a typo I meant to put 1/125. :D

I use a combination of standard 18-55mm, 50mm prime and 70-300 zoom. Referring to Saturday's situation it was mainly by 18-55mm.

Ideally I wanted to capture the bride and her father walking down toward the aisle. So maintaining them in focus and blurring the background. Unfortunately, this didn't happen as expected.

The setting was a hotel function room around 2 in the afternoon but with no natural lighting. Everything was shot indoors due to bad weather.
 
Your shutter speed should always be faster than your focal length to rule out camera shake, or in your case 1.6x your focal length.

Once that's ruled out, you then need to make sure you shutter is fast enough to freeze an average person. 1/200 should be fine in most cases.

With the lenses you mention, you will really struggle to get these speeds indoors.
I shot my first wedding on Saturday using a f/1.4 prime and f/2.8 zoom.
I was struggling to get shutter speeds over 1/100 most of the time wide open with ISO 1600.
Sometimes the light just isn't there, even at crazy high ISOs.
What gear is the photographer you are following using and what are his photos like?
If he is getting the shots, then its obviously possible in the light available providing you have appropriate gear.
 
TCR4x4 said:
Your shutter speed should always be faster than your focal length to rule out camera shake, or in your case 1.6x your focal length.

Once that's ruled out, you then need to make sure you shutter is fast enough to freeze an average person. 1/200 should be fine in most cases.

With the lenses you mention, you will really struggle to get these speeds indoors.
I shot my first wedding on Saturday using a f/1.4 prime and f/2.8 zoom.
I was struggling to get shutter speeds over 1/100 most of the time wide open with ISO 1600.
Sometimes the light just isn't there, even at crazy high ISOs.
What gear is the photographer you are following using and what are his photos like?
If he is getting the shots, then its obviously possible in the light available providing you have appropriate gear.
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Not quite sure what equipment he is using but he has 2 separate camera bodies both Nikons. I noted he was using a 70-300 zoom which I was surprised with because I'm aware it's a cheap option. But he did advise me that some of his shots were taken with his standard 18-55.

My problem is that I can't experiment with the speeds as usually the moment as gone. For example, cake cutting, last dance, wedding march etc. So I'm always trying to get that standard to revert to. Obviously that's not possible considering the different lighting conditions etc.

It's infuriating because this is what is holding me back from getting better as a Photographer. I really enjoy it but it's doing my head in when I can't get one of the basics right. :bang:
 
Steve,

For "posed" static shots then 1/125 with a standard/medium telephoto might just cut it. If the subjects are moving (the isle walk, the cake cut etc) then I'd be looking to double this. If you're venturing into the telephoto lengths (200mm upwards) then I'd go faster still.

The one case that doesn't quite fall in with the guides above is where you'd be using flash in a very dark environment. You can get away with a slower shutter speed as most of the exposure is coming from the flash and the pulse is much quicker than the shutter time....it effectively freezes the motion for you.

Bob
 
Canon Bob said:
Steve,

For "posed" static shots then 1/125 with a standard/medium telephoto might just cut it. If the subjects are moving (the isle walk, the cake cut etc) then I'd be looking to double this. If you're venturing into the telephoto lengths (200mm upwards) then I'd go faster still.

The one case that doesn't quite fall in with the guides above is where you'd be using flash in a very dark environment. You can get away with a slower shutter speed as most of the exposure is coming from the flash and the pulse is much quicker than the shutter time....it effectively freezes the motion for you.

Bob
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I always use a flash head with everything when photographing weddings. Could I go even slower than 1/125 with my 18-55?
 
Steve_o said:
I always use a flash head with everything when photographing weddings. Could I go even slower than 1/125 with my 18-55?
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It depends on the amount of ambient light....ie, how much of the exposure is from the flash and how much is from the ambient light.

Bob
 
try and practice with freinds and family not at a wedding. Learn your equipment inside out.
The trouble with giving set speeds you should use is every situation is different. A couple walking, is it inside or out side, what time of day how much light is there even how fast are they walking. The great thing about digital is you can take as many practice shots as you like, open them in photoshop and see what works and what does not. All the info is their in the data.
 
Steve_o said:
I always use a flash head with everything when photographing weddings. Could I go even slower than 1/125 with my 18-55?
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I hate to ask the grumpy question, but seriously? Even as a second surely you know this very basic stuff and this thread is a wind up?
 
boyfalldown said:
I hate to ask the grumpy question, but seriously? Even as a second surely you know this very basic stuff and this thread is a wind up?
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You'd think?

Unfortunately an inexperienced photographer starting out (shooting with kit lenses) hires (probably free) an assistant (actually a 2nd shooter).

Assistants don't shoot. And if they are asked to take a few shots, the photographer would be on hand to offer technical advice.

An inexperienced 2nd shooter should have their hand held by the pro who's presumably relying on the quality of the output.:thinking:

If i'm 'hiring' a 2nd and I haven't ensured at least this much knowledge:
  • I've let myself down reputationally
  • I've let the 2nd down - what's he getting from it if he's still asking questions like this after the event - when presumably he agreed to do it to learn something.
  • I've let the couple down - lowered the number of presentable shots.

But feel free to come trashing the industry, everyone's welcome:) Maybe those nice people at (insert pro body here) will give you a nice big badge for your website to prove you know what you're doing.

I'm possibly a bit grumpy this morning.:(
 
Phil V said:
You'd think?

Unfortunately an inexperienced photographer starting out (shooting with kit lenses) hires (probably free) an assistant (actually a 2nd shooter).

Assistants don't shoot. And if they are asked to take a few shots, the photographer would be on hand to offer technical advice.

An inexperienced 2nd shooter should have their hand held by the pro who's presumably relying on the quality of the output.:thinking:

If i'm 'hiring' a 2nd and I haven't ensured at least this much knowledge:
  • I've let myself down reputationally
  • I've let the 2nd down - what's he getting from it if he's still asking questions like this after the event - when presumably he agreed to do it to learn something.
  • I've let the couple down - lowered the number of presentable shots.

But feel free to come trashing the industry, everyone's welcome:) Maybe those nice people at (insert pro body here) will give you a nice big badge for your website to prove you know what you're doing.

I'm possibly a bit grumpy this morning.:(
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Sorry but you may have mis-interpreted my current situation. Whilst I am an inexperienced photographer with kit lenses I am certainly not hiring anybody and not offering my services or making any money whatsoever.

I have offered to act an as assistant to professional wedding photographers hoping to gain experience and advice. One photographer has kindly provided me with this opportunity but has decided to put the wedding photography on hold. He kindly recommended me to one of his clients.

I am under no illusions as to my level of experience, hence why I'm on this forum.

Unfortunately, your response has reminded me that I am not that good and maybe pursing an avenue of photography I shouldn't be attempting.

I will state though that we all started out as beginners with everything in life and the way to become good at something is by practicing and asking for help. Which is exactly what I'm doing. I could understand your frustration if I was charging people for bad photos but I'm not. I make it abundantly clear that I accept no money (even if offered out of goodwill) for bad photos.

but seriously? Even as a second surely you know this very basic stuff and this thread is a wind up
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No it's not a wind up and how else do you expect people to learn without asking questions? I don't know how you learn about things but if I don't understand something I ask people who know better. I'm not the type to sit and muddle along.

I want to get better and this is the way to do it. Don't make me out to be a bad person for wanting to get better at photography.

Would you prefer it if I was one of these photographers that charges people money for bad photos?

Thank you both for making me doubt my abilities even more. :clap:
 
Steve_o said:
No it's not a wind up and how else do you expect people to learn without asking questions? I don't know how you learn about things but if I don't understand something I ask people who know better. I'm not the type to sit and muddle along.

I want to get better and this is the way to do it. Don't make me out to be a bad person for wanting to get better at photography.

Would you prefer it if I was one of these photographers that charges people money for bad photos?

Thank you both for making me doubt my abilities even more. :clap:
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I'm going to be blunt,I'm sorry I know I'll get shot for this but the simple question is don't you think you ought to understand the very very basics of photography before you go anywhere near this sort of work, paying or otherwise?

Thats not about making you out to be a bad person, but learn then find work not find work as you learn some very basic stuff.

I'd love to know how anything said makes you out to be a bad person?
 
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Steve.
You're the one that's mistaken, in your desire to defend yourself you've failed to see who my gripe is with.
Clue.... Not you. Have a read again.

Anyone taking you on as a 2nd is responsible for your output, so don't feel got at.

None of us have an issue with people who don't know stuff, but we all have issues with people who take on paid work and take on 2nd shooters to help out, without the necessary skills. (His skills not yours)

If the guy you seconded for was worth working for, this thread wouldn't exist;).

See my post, if you'd assisted me (not 2nd shot you haven't the knowledge) you'd have learned some stuff and wouldn't need to ask a bunch of strangers on a forum stuff.

See how much stuff I type explaining basics to newbies here, imagine how I could bore you to tears one to one.:geek:
 
boyfalldown said:
I'm going to be blunt,I'm sorry I know I'll get shot for this but the simple question is don't you think you ought to understand the very very basics of photography before you go anywhere near this sort of work, paying or otherwise?

Thats not about making you out to be a bad person, but learn then find work not find work as you learn some very basic stuff.

I;d love to know how anything said makes you out to be a bad person?
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I'm not actively seeking out work though. I don't advertise my services to people. I just know a lot of people that have got married recently and I've asked to tag along and photograph. On the off chance I take something that the couple may like they are welcome to it free of charge.

However, I'm the type of person that learns more by doing. I understand more by actually photographing and seeing the effects of different settings. Some people prefer to ask questions and then shoot. Others prefer sitting and reading internet articles or books before photographing. My understanding is I'm better off practicing at weddings where I can make mistakes (as I'm not being paid) and asking the professional lot's of questions.

As it happened with the last one I went to, the professional couldn't devote the time to helping me as others have in the past. So I was on my own so to speak and hence why I've come on the forum asking the question as looking back at the photos I know where I went wrong.

Your response made me feel like a bad person for even attempting wedding photography. Honestly, I've posted on the thephotoforum.com which is predominately american and I get the feeling there that if you weren't up to the same level as the pro's amongst us then you shouldn't be using a basic D-SLR with kit lens and learning. And the response from yourself made me feel like that again.

End of the day we have all got to start somewhere and I belive I'm taking a pro-active approach to learning how to be a wedding photographer. I'm sure you are just trying to be helpful.
 
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Phil V said:
Steve.
You're the one that's mistaken, in your desire to defend yourself you've failed to see who my gripe is with.
Clue.... Not you. Have a read again.

Anyone taking you on as a 2nd is responsible for your output, so don't feel got at.

None of us have an issue with people who don't know stuff, but we all have issues with people who take on paid work and take on 2nd shooters to help out, without the necessary skills. (His skills not yours)

If the guy you seconded for was worth working for, this thread wouldn't exist;).

See my post, if you'd assisted me (not 2nd shot you haven't the knowledge) you'd have learned some stuff and wouldn't need to ask a bunch of strangers on a forum stuff.

See how much stuff I type explaining basics to newbies here, imagine how I could bore you to tears one to one.:geek:
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My apologies Phil. I've clearly misunderstood your original post and I went off on one.

Sorry!! I feel terrible :(

I'm very critical of my own work and I'm desperately trying to improve and I'll seek help wherever I can.

My main concern is how a photographer has time to adjust their settings during the moment.

For example, I wanted to photograph the bride and father walking down the aisle. I had clearly got the incorrect shutter speed. So if a professional had realised that how would he pre-empt that in order to make sure he doesn't miss the moment? That's what I can't get my head around. Because as I've been rightly told, you can't pre prepare for every lighting condition.
 
being desperate to improve, and learning by asking is fantastic. Ask all the questions you want to ask.

but learn and practice your photography, then become a wedding photographer. (if that makes sense.)
 
boyfalldown said:
being desperate to improve, and learning by asking is fantastic. Ask all the questions you want to ask.

but learn and practice your photography, then become a wedding photographer. (if that makes sense.)
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But that's exactly what I'm doing only difference being I'm practicing within a wedding environment. I don't consider myself a wedding photographer by any stretch of the imagination. And these weddings I'm attending are merely by chance. It just happens that I know people who have got married recently and I've tagged along. lol.

In order to shoot people I need to be amongst crowds. Some people would get there camera out and shoot the general public. I'm really not comfortable with that. (as much as I'd like to in all honesty.) I really enjoy Urban or Street Photography books. But i don't have the confidence to practice on random people in the street. At least if it's an actual wedding, people accept the reason as to why you have a camera pointed in their direction. :lol:
 
Steve, the point being made here is simply not to get your basic learning and practise done at weddings. The fact that you're not being paid does not mean you don't have a heavy responsibility to deliver top quality work on a very important and unrepeatable occasion.

Everything else you're doing is fine - shooting, asking questions, reading etc. Just don't do your learning at weddings.

You may also have gathered that the general subject of wedding photography and weekend warriors in particular is a very sensitive subject around here!
 
Steve_o said:
My apologies Phil. I've clearly misunderstood your original post and I went off on one.

Sorry!! I feel terrible :(

I'm very critical of my own work and I'm desperately trying to improve and I'll seek help wherever I can.

My main concern is how a photographer has time to adjust their settings during the moment.

For example, I wanted to photograph the bride and father walking down the aisle. I had clearly got the incorrect shutter speed. So if a professional had realised that how would he pre-empt that in order to make sure he doesn't miss the moment? That's what I can't get my head around. Because as I've been rightly told, you can't pre prepare for every lighting condition.
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As we move into place to shoot it, we alter our settings, which for me is:
centre focus point,
AI servo
Flash exp comp 2/3 under
Manual exposure of ambient about 5.6 to ensure focus and whatever iso will give me the shutter speed 1/200, it might mean that the flash becomes the primary light source if the ISO starts to climb too much, it's a balancing act.

There's no 'if the settings are wrong when you get there' because we prepare, that's what being 'professional' is about. And the bride and and her dad entering the ceremony isn't ever a surprise, and we've already measured the light and taken some other shots before it happens. No surprises, just preparation.

And the more you use your kit, the quicker you can alter settings.

Which is where the 'good enough' comes in too. Before you start thinking about working as a photographer, the photography has to be effortless, because there's so much other stuff to do. Whilst you're keeping everyone entertained and organising them, keeping an eye on timings and your list of jobs in your head, you haven't got the mental capacity to have to think about the technical stuff as well.

You need to be able to do it without thinking, like driving. You know those days when you miss 5 minutes of your journey to work because you were daydreaming? But you did everything right? Because the drivings 2nd nature? Well the photography has to get to that stage.
 
"However, I'm the type of person that learns more by doing. I understand more by actually photographing and seeing the effects of different settings. Some people prefer to ask questions and then shoot. Others prefer sitting and reading internet articles or books before photographing. My understanding is I'm better off practicing at weddings where I can make mistakes (as I'm not being paid) and asking the professional lot's of questions".

We have a lot in common. I too learn by doing and have only been at this for less than a year. One thing I want to point out is that light is light and understanding it does not mean you need to be at a church or wedding taking pictures. You can learn in many other situations. Point is you are not very far along in your study of photography if your asking what shutter speed to use in order to freeze the subject.


"Your response made me feel like a bad person for even attempting wedding photography".

please try not to take the guys remarks to hard but instead put yourself in their shoes. These are guys that studied photography for many many years and have built a business in some cases as wedding photographers. They are proud and very happy to help guys like us but for a complete beginner to come into an actual wedding to shoot is, well lets just say it could be considered a bit offensive.

The truth is (imo) the photographer that brought you along so blindly is really the guilty party.

P.S. I'm American and I ended up here because of exactly what you said. This forum and the members are extremely helpful so stick with it and you will see. :thumbs:
 
Phil V said:
As we move into place to shoot it, we alter our settings, which for me is:
centre focus point,
AI servo
Flash exp comp 2/3 under
Manual exposure of ambient about 5.6 to ensure focus and whatever iso will give me the shutter speed 1/200, it might mean that the flash becomes the primary light source if the ISO starts to climb too much, it's a balancing act.

Forgive me if this is a stupid question. If you have set aperture, shutter and a low iso then isn't the only thing left to balance the exposure the flash output? If so, is 2/3 under a starting point or am i not understanding the term flash exp comp? :bang::bonk::thinking:
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shaylou said:
Phil V said:
As we move into place to shoot it, we alter our settings, which for me is:
centre focus point,
AI servo
Flash exp comp 2/3 under
Manual exposure of ambient about 5.6 to ensure focus and whatever iso will give me the shutter speed 1/200, it might mean that the flash becomes the primary light source if the ISO starts to climb too much, it's a balancing act.

Forgive me if this is a stupid question. If you have set aperture, shutter and a low iso then isn't the only thing left to balance the exposure the flash output? If so, is 2/3 under a starting point or am i not understanding the term flash exp comp? :bang::bonk::thinking:
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It's a starting point, ettl flash is likely to overexpose, esp in a large room and slightly under exposing will allow me to bring up the detail if necessary, whereas once the dress is overexposed there's no shot.

My fill flash is always 1/3 to 1 stop under because I don't like my shots to look flashed. But when I'm using OCF as a main light source, where the light quality will be more considered, the FEC will be more subtly adjusted. Does that make sense:thinking:

Missed this bit - I never said a low iso, I'm just watching for it not being too high, subtle choice of words but major difference. As a starting point an iso of 200 would make the flash the main source of light and leave a dark interior:shake:, I'm aiming for the ambient to be between exposed properly and a stop and a half under. I'd have that calculated from the 'no flash' shots I've been taking already, basically adjusting my settings from there to add flash and freeze the moving bride and dad.
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shaylou said:
Is using a flash indoors at a wedding a big no no?
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only during the service (and then not always - it depends on venue/celebrant) - virtually everyone uses flash indoors for stuff like first dance, its pretty hard not to if you are going to get good shots in a very dimly lit dance floor
 
I read somewhere when I first started out that 1/80 is a minimum. The higher the focal length - the faster the shutter speed. Example, 100mm then 1/100 is the MAXIMUM length of your exposure. Faster the better.

Just bump up the ISO. By my standards, I'd rather have some noise on a sharp image rather than no noise on a blurry image. Plus, if you get your exposure right then the noise isn't as apparent.
 
thats for a avoiding camera shake - it doesnt however help you avoid blur from subject movement. so you could have say a 50mm lens so set 1/60 have no camera shake but still have movement blur
 
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