Shutter speeds for small fast moving birds?

[Crotal Bell]

I'm beginning to think I am not using enough shutter speed on small birds.
I have been trying the pre-burst mode to capture small birds taking off, where the Pana G9 gives you 0.4 seconds of frames before you hit the shutter.
At first I thought the focussing was failing to catch the moving bird, but now I think maybe my shutter speed is too slow.
I took this at 1/1300 and the face was pretty sharp but the wings still blurred.
Do I need faster speeds for little birds that dart off the branches and have a fast wing speed?
I had to sharpen this, and the light was poor too. Maybe small birds need 1/2000?

 

[Bebop]

I try and do a minimum of 1/2000 unless the light is poor.

I have heard judges criticise blurry wings but I personally quite like them. I think it's nice to see movement. I do want the eyes sharp.

 

[Crotal Bell]

I try and do a minimum of 1/2000 unless the light is poor.

I have heard judges criticise blurry wings but I personally quite like them. I think it's nice to see movement. I do want the eyes sharp.

Thanks Bebop. I think I underestimate how fast the body is moving on these small birds, using 1/1000 for bigger birds flying slowly can be enough but I don't think I have been increasing enough for the smaller ones that dart about, 1/3000 not a big enough step up.

I agree about the motion blur on the wings, it can look very effective and they don't have to be sharp, but you do want the subjects body to be focussed, and as you say especially the eyes.

I also think that I need to accept that this kind of photography is only going to look good when the light is right.

 

[Nod]

I used to get frustrated by trying to get frozen wings, sharp faces, cleanish backgrounds, no obscuring twigs etc. and found the perfect solution - accept my limitations and enjoy watching the things hopping round rather than try to capture them!

 

[delb0y]

I also think that I need to accept that this kind of photography is only going to look good when the light is right.

I agree, but the issue that I've always come across is that when the light is good it tends to be low, and thus the higher shutter speeds need an awful lot of ISO. I'd be interested in how you progress. I, too, am happy with blurred wings, so long as the eyes and preferably head are sharp.

 

[Crotal Bell]

I used to get frustrated by trying to get frozen wings, sharp faces, cleanish backgrounds, no obscuring twigs etc. and found the perfect solution - accept my limitations and enjoy watching the things hopping round rather than try to capture them!

I think that's a good point, it's clearly a very difficult thing to get right for a lot of reasons. I won't be trying it all the time that's for sure.

 

[Crotal Bell]

I agree, but the issue that I've always come across is that when the light is good it tends to be low, and thus the higher shutter speeds need an awful lot of ISO. I'd be interested in how you progress. I, too, am happy with blurred wings, so long as the eyes and preferably head are sharp.

Yes it's clearly not something where you can expect good results to come very often, a lot of factors involved in this.

 

[the black fox]

its a balancing act . when you get it right you'll know

 

[Dale.]

It is very difficult, especially with small birds, they are very, very fast. Larger birds are easier (but still a challenge) and that may be a good way of getting started for you, practice on them and refine your technique.

Looking at your image, the light didn't look great, it's an uphill battle from there. You also need to consider depth of field as being close to small birds usually means a shallow depth of field and the bird often moves out of focus. Smaller apertures can help (I'm usually at f7.1 - f8) with this but then you're looking at potentially slower shutter speeds and higher ISO settings, which can also affect detail.

It's a compromise all round with settings and then you have to nail your focus.

It's all good fun.

 

[jdburkedjburke]

Yes it certainly is a balancing act, and a tough one to get right.

 

[woof woof]

It is very difficult, especially with small birds, they are very, very fast. Larger birds are easier (but still a challenge) and that may be a good way of getting started for you, practice on them and refine your technique.

Looking at your image, the light didn't look great, it's an uphill battle from there. You also need to consider depth of field as being close to small birds usually means a shallow depth of field and the bird often moves out of focus. Smaller apertures can help (I'm usually at f7.1 - f8) with this but then you're looking at potentially slower shutter speeds and higher ISO settings, which can also affect detail.

It's a compromise all round with settings and then you have to nail your focus.

It's all good fun.

What format is that with Dale? FF/APS-C/MFT/other?

If I was doing this it would be with MFT as I have no long FF lenses. Luckily for me all my MFT lenses are sharp enough from wide open for me. I think the Panasonic 100-400mm is F4-6.3 so that means that in FF terms the lens is already at f8-f12.6 depth wise.

 

[Dale.]

What format is that with Dale? FF/APS-C/MFT/other?

If I was doing this it would be with MFT as I have no long FF lenses. Luckily for me all my MFT lenses are sharp enough from wide open for me. I think the Panasonic 100-400mm is F4-6.3 so that means that in FF terms the lens is already at f8-f12.6 depth wise.

FF and APS-C for me Alan, 5Div, R7 and sometimes, M5.

The crop for Canon is 1.6x.

 

[Crotal Bell]

It is very difficult, especially with small birds, they are very, very fast. Larger birds are easier (but still a challenge) and that may be a good way of getting started for you, practice on them and refine your technique.

Looking at your image, the light didn't look great, it's an uphill battle from there. You also need to consider depth of field as being close to small birds usually means a shallow depth of field and the bird often moves out of focus. Smaller apertures can help (I'm usually at f7.1 - f8) with this but then you're looking at potentially slower shutter speeds and higher ISO settings, which can also affect detail.

It's a compromise all round with settings and then you have to nail your focus.

It's all good fun.

You are correct Dale, the sun went behind a cloud and the light was far from perfect, I'm actually surprised how much I was able to recover, and fairly pleased for an early effort.

Some good advice which I appreciate, and it seems clear that I shouldn't get disappointed when it doesn't work out well on small birds, because it probably won't a lot of the time.

 

[Crotal Bell]

It is very difficult, especially with small birds, they are very, very fast. Larger birds are easier (but still a challenge) and that may be a good way of getting started for you, practice on them and refine your technique.

Looking at your image, the light didn't look great, it's an uphill battle from there. You also need to consider depth of field as being close to small birds usually means a shallow depth of field and the bird often moves out of focus. Smaller apertures can help (I'm usually at f7.1 - f8) with this but then you're looking at potentially slower shutter speeds and higher ISO settings, which can also affect detail.

It's a compromise all round with settings and then you have to nail your focus.

It's all good fun.

I should also add that pre-burst mode is likely going to send me to back button focus.
When you're holding the focus on the G9 front button it is far too easy to accidently fire off a burst too early.

 

[delb0y]

That'll be cool if it works - but doesn't the "pre" bit of pre-burst start when you half press the shutter button? i.e. if you turn off focus from the shutter-button and re-assign it to the AF/AE lock button will it also re-assign that "pre" functionality? Be good if it does! I've said it before... I really should read the manual.

 

[Crotal Bell]

That'll be cool if it works - but doesn't the "pre" bit of pre-burst start when you half press the shutter button? i.e. if you turn off focus from the shutter-button and re-assign it to the AF/AE lock button will it also re-assign that "pre" functionality? Be good if it does! I've said it before... I really should read the manual.

Good point, I don't think the back button can release the shutter so I assumed you could freeze focus on the back and execute the preburst by pressing the front. I'll check that out first though.

 

[Crotal Bell]

That'll be cool if it works - but doesn't the "pre" bit of pre-burst start when you half press the shutter button? i.e. if you turn off focus from the shutter-button and re-assign it to the AF/AE lock button will it also re-assign that "pre" functionality? Be good if it does! I've said it before... I really should read the manual.

Found the answer on this very helpful video - pre-burst using back button focus (this guy does some really good G9 videos)
You have to thumb in to hold focus, but you still need to half press the shutter to engage the pre-burst.
He explains this at around 14 min near the end of the video.

 

[the black fox]

in all honesty Keith small birds in flight is one of the hardest things to conquer ,going from nearly impossible to WOW I did it .. I would raise your initial targets to larger birds such as gulls ,and raptors master them and the small stuff will follow , then progress to insects in flight ..
its a hobby you have only had the G9 and 100-400 for a couple of weeks its gonna take a lot longer to gel with the set up so it becomes instinct

 

[Crotal Bell]

in all honesty Keith small birds in flight is one of the hardest things to conquer ,going from nearly impossible to WOW I did it .. I would raise your initial targets to larger birds such as gulls ,and raptors master them and the small stuff will follow , then progress to insects in flight ..
its a hobby you have only had the G9 and 100-400 for a couple of weeks its gonna take a lot longer to gel with the set up so it becomes instinct

Very wise words and my expectations are under control