So much hatred for new wedding photographers??

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Radiohead said:
:lol:

Yes, I only work the one day a week, the rest of time I either punch kittens or murder nuns.
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So! your the one responsible for littering the streets with dead cats and nuns, I was beginning to wonder.......:lol:
 
Rowee said:
I do not know POAH on any level, maybe this is ironic coming from POAH, but a valid point has been made nonetheless.
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I explained why I thought it ironic in post #115. Without meaning to be in any way funny its very hard to except valid point from people who consistently describe you as 'Snotty' and 'MoFUs' when presented with polite posts

I think valid point or not its been somewhat weakened don't you?
 
boyfalldown said:
I explained why I thought it ironic in post #115. Without meaning to be in any way funny its very hard to except valid point from people who consistently describe you as 'Snotty' and 'MoFUs' when presented with polite posts

I think valid point or not its been somewhat weakened don't you?
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A valid point is a valid point, it is not weakened nor strengthened by the creator.
 
Radiohead said:
Is anyone able to reconcile these 2 posts from the same person?
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if you read between the lines it's pretty obvious :D i won't say why here though because it's poor forum etiquette but the mods know what i think put it that way.
 
boyfalldown said:
so its OK to be as insulting as you like in making it. :shrug:
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Im not saying its right to be insulting, tbh i'm completely ignoring all the little dig's people are throwing at each other. The 'Valid Point' i am referring to is this...

"the forum will have a significantly more amatuer users than professional so its not surprising they have more contributions to threads. People are not saying how so called professional photographers should operate more how they have a certain way with words on wedding photography on this forum."
 
See - I disagree.

There are plenty of people here who haven't ever shot a wedding, let alone run a business doing so, yet who seem quite happy to complain when those who do know tell it as it is. More often than not that happens within the Business Forum, and I don't think there's a problem in speaking blunt truths in there.

It appears that the former can say what they like (arrogant MuFo's etc), but as soon as a pro says anything at all, they're jumped on like a mugger. It's double standards.

I've never shot automotive, or sports, so I don't opine on it. It's not an area where I'd be doing anything but speculating, and there are those who know much more than me in those areas who can offer the advice.
 
Rowee said:
Im not saying its right to be insulting, tbh i'm completely ignoring all the little dig's people are throwing at each other. The 'Valid Point' i am referring to is this...

"the forum will have a significantly more amatuer users than professional so its not surprising they have more contributions to threads. People are not saying how so called professional photographers should operate more how they have a certain way with words on wedding photography on this forum."
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It may be valid but it does cut the other way to - if you're going to throw words at a group of people then it seems wrong to expect all sweetness and light back.


I'll restate my earlier point most of the pro photographers on this forum are helpful. Look at the help Tracey - (sorry) has had lately for an example. Most don't have time for insults, and backbiting though.

To give another example from this thread, someone not involved at all said

It even went so far at one point I saw a thread pointing to a website which apparently told photographers what they should charge for their photos, so they wouldn't inadvertently undercut each other and ensure they all remained able to charge high prices.
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how is that helpful? The website in question was probably Alamy, not a cartel (as implied) but a stock library,nothing to do with wedding photography and to be candid a post showing a considerable lack of understanding. Why is it OK to ask value of your kit but not be told of the value of your work?

I'd rather talk about fish.
 
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When I first joined this forum I was a little intimidated by the so called professional wedding photographers. One user in particular (female but can't recall her name) was particularly off-hand and snobbish to people asking questions about getting into wedding photography. Anyway after trotting off to look at her website it was quite obvious that any amateur would be able to produce comparable and probably better results so I had no hesitation in taking my first booking.

To be honest a lot of these "professional" photographers are only professional in name, the results they produce are pretty much average to say the least with only a few exceptions. Part time or amateur photographers are in many cases superior technically to Pros and are only part time because they have proper jobs.
 
You know, sometimes its not just what is said its the way that its said too.

Why is it that people like to refer to professional working photographers as so called professionals or stick it inside quote marks - "professionals". I find this tone of voice used to be quite insulting.

Argue with it or not, but there is a lot of resentment on this forum against professional photographers who:

a) dare to have an opinion
b) apsire to protect our working practises
c) care about the industry as a whole, rather than themselves

Now, I refrain usually from commenting about issues like this as I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, but there is an obvious bias towards having a go at working professionals who dare to put their head above the parapet.

Not only that, but the same old people keep cropping up in threads like this, just to fuel these arguments like the trolls that they are.

Just my 0.02p + vat
 
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James - I will reserve the right to have a pop at "professional" photographers while ever they ponce about pretending to be the elite, when quite clearly judging by a lot of their wedding shots they are far from it.
 
jamesoliverstone said:
You know, sometimes its not just what is said its the way that its said too.

Why is it that people like to refer to professional working photographers as so called professionals or stick it inside quote marks - "professionals". I find this tone of voice used to be quite insulting.

Argue with it or not, but there is a lot of resentment on this forum against professional photographers who:

a) dare to have an opinion
b) apsire to protect our working practises
c) care about the industry as a whole, rather than themselves

Now, I refrain usually from commenting about issues like this as I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, but there is an obvious bias towards having a go at working professionals who dare to put their head above the parapet.

Not only that, but the same old people keep cropping up in threads like this, just to fuel these arguments like the trolls that they are.

Just my 0.02p + vat
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I'm sure this is true. The problem is though, there are a few (one in particular in fact :cough: ) VERY vocal professionals who are quick to criticise those they see as beneath them, often not in a constructive way - despite the fact that their photography is frankly nothing to write home about. And this gets peoples' backs up. Very much not talking about you btw. The fact is that being a successful pro is much more about being good at business/marketing than it is about photographic skills - but some people seem to think being able to make a living also automatically makes them a superior photographer to everyone else, and can be very condescending.

It is a big shame though if the pros who do offer supportive and helpful comments are put off posting. I have recently had a very silly defensive response to some comments I made which were very mildly critical.

To the previous poster Jason - why so confrontational? That kind of attitude isn't going to help.
 
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DaydreamJay said:
James - I will reserve the right to have a pop at "professional" photographers while ever they ponce about pretending to be the elite, when quite clearly judging by a lot of their wedding shots they are far from it.
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Using phrases like 'proper jobs' is clearly perjorative though - it implies that being a wedding photographer isn't a proper job.

So when you see that is it any wonder that it gets backs up? You may or may not be including me in your comments, but my point remains.
 
I wasn't referring to anyone in particualr by saying "proper jobs" and I'm sorry if it sounds offensive. I know a few people personally who are awesome photographers but only do it part time due to having jobs that pay better money - that's what I mean, sorry.
 
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jamesoliverstone said:
You know, sometimes its not just what is said its the way that its said too.

Why is it that people like to refer to professional working photographers as so called professionals or stick it inside quote marks - "professionals". I find this tone of voice used to be quite insulting.

Argue with it or not, but there is a lot of resentment on this forum against professional photographers who:

a) dare to have an opinion
b) apsire to protect our working practises
c) care about the industry as a whole, rather than themselves

Now, I refrain usually from commenting about issues like this as I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, but there is an obvious bias towards having a go at working professionals who dare to put their head above the parapet.

Not only that, but the same old people keep cropping up in threads like this, just to fuel these arguments like the trolls that they are.

Just my 0.02p + vat
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Totally agree.
 
Well, I am not a wedding photographer and never will be.

I agree that there are some people that are not so great and others that are, then there are people who are head and shoulders above anyone else, and people who should never have picked up a camera in the first place... but the point is, who are we to cast aspersions upon that person and their work in such a derogatory manner? And then tar every so called professional with the same brush?

Its all too easy for people to get on their high horses and spout derogatory and rude comments behind a keyboard... I wonder if that same person would have the gall to utter such things to the persons face?

I doubt it.

And more to the point, what does all of this achieve anyway? Apart from an internet bun fight, nothing.

I guess I just believe in ettiqute. If I went to an art gallery to see a photography exhibition and the photos looked (to me) like a load of old horse cack, would I loudly proclaim in the middle of the exhibition "who the hell took these pictures? This "so called pro" is cack and I can take better pictures with my point and shoot" then spin on my heels and leave in a huff?

no.

I would simply leave the exhibition noting to myself not to bother following his/her work again.

In fact, would you do it if the actual photographer was there too?

again, of course you wouldn't.

But then it seems that as soon as you sit behind a keyboard, away from repercussions, you can just fire at will? I guess I just don't understand the troll mentality.

Anyway, there was a point in there somewhere I am sure. ;)
 
DaydreamJay said:
I wasn't referring to anyone in particualr by saying "proper jobs" and I'm sorry if it sounds offensive. I know a few people personally who are awesome photographers but only do it part time due to having jobs that pay better money - that's what I mean, sorry.
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I agree totally - I mentioned this in post 34:

Some people shooting a wedding for free or £200 today will turn out to be excellent and will be charging £1500 in a couple of years. Some will cock it up horribly and never go near one again. The rest might be ok and charge £500-700 and do it as a sideline. You'll only find out by trying, but everyone doing so should go into it with their eyes open.

It's seen as easy money (which it's not on, a number of levels), but to do it well takes time, ability and experience. It's only partially about the photography - there are lots of good, but not brilliant, wedding photographers who are making a very good living because they get on well with people and their clients love them. Equally there are many excellent ones who never succeed because they aren't able to click with different people and do so consistently. That's before you even get into album design, workflow and so on.
 
grum said:
To the previous poster Jason - why so confrontational? That kind of attitude isn't going to help.
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You think that I'm being confrontational? How about when I joined the site and got a virtual booting from "professionals" on here because I merely hinted that at some point in the future I may shoot a wedding...?
 
jamesoliverstone said:
You know, sometimes its not just what is said its the way that its said too.

Why is it that people like to refer to professional working photographers as so called professionals or stick it inside quote marks - "professionals". I find this tone of voice used to be quite insulting.

Argue with it or not, but there is a lot of resentment on this forum against professional photographers who:

a) dare to have an opinion
b) apsire to protect our working practises
c) care about the industry as a whole, rather than themselves

Now, I refrain usually from commenting about issues like this as I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, but there is an obvious bias towards having a go at working professionals who dare to put their head above the parapet.

Not only that, but the same old people keep cropping up in threads like this, just to fuel these arguments like the trolls that they are.

Just my 0.02p + vat
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Well said.
 
Like I said back on page 1:

Jelster said:
From what I have read, my opinion is that by doing a wedding cheaper than a full time professional photographer many of them see it as devaluing their trade.

I do feel that as much as I like to chat with the pro's on this forum, some are very hostile towards new guys on the scene trying to make their way into the industry.
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I've shot a couple of weddings, when I did my Sisters it didn't matter that much, she already had 3 wedding albums :lol:

Seriously, it can be a very stressful time for a photographer, especially if you're an amateur. When I did it for my sister I didn't know enough about flash, and I wasn't as prepared as I should have been. I'd feel more comfortable doing one now, but don't really have the inclination.

But for those of you who haven't done it, don't knock the guys who do it on a regular basis. It's hard, demanding work. You get very little time to make decisions and it really does have to right first time, every time.

Steve
 
. . . and as usual many of the people making the anti pro comments are annonymous - no contact details - no website - no gallery pictures - no back bone.
 
As the amateur photographers seem to dislike the pros commenting maybe it's time they remember how much help many of those pros give in other sections of the furum.
And maybe it's time for us pros to think whether or not we are still welcome here in TP.

It's sad these threads always degenerate into a pro v amateur fight, personally I'm sick of it.
 
I don't but I think it's interesting that so many prefer to hide their identities. Gives them a false courage to mouth off.
 
swanseamale47 said:
As the amateur photographers seem to dislike the pros commenting maybe it's time they remember how much help many of those pros give in other sections of the furum.
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So because they are helpful in one section that gives them the right to stick the boot in to posters in other sections?
 
DaydreamJay said:
So because they are helpful in one section that gives them the right to stick the boot in to posters in other sections?
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funny, I don't remember ever sticking the boot in - particularly to you - or are you just generalising?
 
boyfalldown said:
funny, I don't remember ever sticking the boot in - particularly to you - or are you just generalising?
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Well it seems that most people are generalising on here. I mean - obviously not all wedding photographers are egocentric freaks with an overblown opinion of their own abilities.
 
DaydreamJay said:
So because they are helpful in one section that gives them the right to stick the boot in to posters in other sections?
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Thats the point, many of the pro's here are helpful in other sections and are not guilty of ever putting the boot in anywhere...

Just because a small minority have, doesn't mean that all the others should be referred to in the same way.
 
DaydreamJay said:
Well it seems that most people are generalising on here. I mean - obviously not all wedding photographers are egocentric freaks with an overblown opinion of their own abilities.
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I wonder why people may of been less than helpful to you? :shrug: seriously, it seems like you expect to be as rude as you like, it is a two way street.
 
DaydreamJay said:
Well it seems that most people are generalising on here. I mean - obviously not all wedding photographers are egocentric freaks with an overblown opinion of their own abilities.
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Oh come on - posts like this and you accuse others of putting the boot in.

Seriously?

I genuinely think this forum has a decision to make.

Professional photography is a business and sometime's it's tough to keep things going. It can be insular. If someone posts in a business forum I don't see why they shouldn't expect honest answers. I get the impression that's the issue - you might want a virtual cuddle and to be told what you want to hear, but that's not always going to happen.

So, does this forum want input from pros, or only if that's wrapped up in a cuddle?

Honestly - I''m a member of a closed, pro-only forum and the stuff that goes on here is child's play. The difference is that there people accept it's not personal and genuinely well-intentioned. It's just not necessary to cover it in kitten fluff.
 
Jimi said:
At the end of the day, if the B&G are happy with the results then who gives a monkeys who took the photos!?!?
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My sentiments exactly. Seems no one's listening though.....
 
awp said:
. . . and as usual many of the people making the anti pro comments are annonymous - no contact details - no website - no gallery pictures - no back bone.
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I fail to see how that has anything to do with how they percive the way certain professionals act on this forum :thinking:


oh and you have no contact details - no website - no gallery pictures - and certainly no credabilty now lol
 
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I feel i should cut in at this point, this thread has had MUCH more attention than i anticipated. Apologies to those who pointed out that threads like this have been created in the past.

My original thoughts for making this thread was that i'd seen, on a few forums, that there is sometimes a bit of hostility when people are asking for advice about wedding shoots and wondered if any pro's have had bad experiences because of amatuers, or any other reasons behind it.

I think i've had enough answeres from both sides to totally confuse me :bonk:
I may or may not ask for any advice or critique on my upcoming wedding, depends how brave i feel at the time.

But seriously, is there really any need for this ongoing feud?
 
Radiohead said:
Oh come on - posts like this and you accuse others of putting the boot in.

Seriously?

I genuinely think this forum has a decision to make.

Professional photography is a business and sometime's it's tough to keep things going. It can be insular. If someone posts in a business forum I don't see why they shouldn't expect honest answers. I get the impression that's the issue - you might want a virtual cuddle and to be told what you want to hear, but that's not always going to happen.

So, does this forum want input from pros, or only if that's wrapped up in a cuddle?

Honestly - I''m a member of a closed, pro-only forum and the stuff that goes on here is child's play. The difference is that there people accept it's not personal and genuinely well-intentioned. It's just not necessary to cover it in kitten fluff.
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Could you actually be any more patronising and condescending? I'm all for honest answers, what I am against is "professionals" making snide comments (see above) and harsh critique when upon examination of their work they are hardly in a position to pass comments. This happens a lot on here which is why (and many others) packed in posting shortly after joining.

As it happens if the definition of professional is someone whose income is derived from photography then I sadly would be classed as one - I feel uneasy referring to myself as such though.
 
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