So Tottenham burns!

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Forbiddenbiker said:
I think the crux of the problem, of some of our youths attitudes, stems from the repeated proven corruption of those the youth are being asked to respect.
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Two wrongs don't make a right as they can also see that those guilty of the worst crimes in the expenses scandals etc are going to prison or have already been sentenced. These thugs don't think they'll ever see prison so they feel no disincentive.

Also, if they're saying they don't approve of that behaviour, and are using that as an excuse, all it proves is that they know right from wrong, can think for themselves and just don't care. There simply is no excuse for their behaviour.
 
matty said:
We don't know for sure if he didn't fire the gun, or has that been announced while I've been buy today? Last statement i saw was that there was no evidence it was or wasn't fired?
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That depends, If it obvious when a gun has been fired to an expert, The surely no evidence at all can only mean it hasn't been fired.
 
Forbiddenbiker said:
The surely no evidence at all can only mean it hasn't been fired.
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That's how I would be inclined to read it as well. I'd have thought there would have been a positive announcement if it had been fired.
 
dod said:
What is your issue with the Police? Or is it an issue with all authority?
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I don't see how wanting the police held accountable for their actions is having an 'issue' with them. I know some on here would give them free rein to run about like Gene Hunt on steroids, but this isn't the movies.

As for other authority, in what context? Religious? Political? This forum?
 
I seem to remember about a year ago, a madman in a taxi went on a shooting spree killing many many people. The Police were deeply critised for not responding fast enough and not shooting this man dead at the earliest oportunity.

Now we have a case where a man allegedly had a loaded firearm. The Police responded quickly and effectively with thankfully no further loss of life.
Guess what, they get critised again for shooting an "innocent" man.

So what would you rather?

Let someone with a gun kill 5,10, 15 people before being taken down, or get it over with before they have a chance to kill your wife, maybe your mother or father, maybe your son or daughter.

If you have a gun, real or otherwise in a public place, expect that day to be your last.
I fully support the Police in shooting this guy and am sick of all these soppy do gooders moaning.
FFS, open your eyes and join in with the real world.
 
Lindsay D said:
Sorry to take things off topic, but when I lived in the United States even though I understood that people could own guns, it was still really strange to find out that so many people did actually have them, I'm talking about normal families who felt that owning a gun was necessary in order to protect themselves and their property. Going out and about you could kind of understand why, there were so many nutters walking the streets and driving the freeways, lunatics who thought nothing of taking lives. I just could not see the case for allowing the population to be armed because the proportion of really dangerous individuals seemed to be worryingly high, and that contingent believed that if you wanted something it was okay to mindlessly shoot a person in order to get it. It was a vicious circle. There were shootings every week on my block.
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It's not really a case of allowing the population to be armed. That right is guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution, and the Supreme Court has recently confirmed that it's an individual right AFAIK. Overturning it would require a two thirds majority in the Senate and the House of Representatives sitting together, I believe. I daresay some presidents and legislators would love to have a go at it, but I doubt if they have the confidence to try. The gun lobby is powerful, and well supported across the board.
 
dod said:
Two wrongs don't make a right as they can also see that those guilty of the worst crimes in the expenses scandals etc are going to prison or have already been sentenced. These thugs don't think they'll ever see prison so they feel no disincentive.

Also, if they're saying they don't approve of that behaviour, and are using that as an excuse, all it proves is that they know right from wrong, can think for themselves and just don't care. There simply is no excuse for their behaviour.
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You know I’m not out to excuse anyone’s behaviour, I’m simply trying to think about the roots of the problem.

But I do think our general view of our utopia is a flawed perspective ..Like we've only caught those that didn't deceive well enough to get away with it is what we should be saying.
 
ding76uk said:
Until the evidence comes out, all we so far know is that he didn't shoot his weapon. Whether he pointed it or not is not known yet. Obviously that is the crux of the case.
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Sorry Lee, but even if he just appeared to reach for his weapon (as in the case of Stephen Waldorf, shot when mistaken for a wanted man) a police officer only has microseconds to react, or would you prefer that those putting their lives on the line in defence of this country had to wait to be shot at before disabling a gun-totting "gangsta"?
 
wack61 said:
I don't know if this has been posted already but there's a lot of truth in it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html#ixzz1Uc3VLK6H
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Marcel said:
Never thought I'd ever see a Daily Mail article hit the nail perfectly on the head.
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That's what I thought too, I wonder if things will change now the scum that have been terrorising council estates for years have ventured out to the high streets where the tv cameras are.
 
Laudrup said:
I don't see how wanting the police held accountable for their actions is having an 'issue' with them. I know some on here would give them free rein to run about like Gene Hunt on steroids, but this isn't the movies.

As for other authority, in what context? Religious? Political? This forum?
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Like many people I feel very strongly that the police, or any individual, should be held accountable if mistakes are made. However we don't yet know all the details of what actually went on with Mr Duggan. If the police were at fault then there will be an outcry.

With respect to the riots, I can't condone a soft approach to this kind of civil disorder. I'm also of the view that had the police been able to work more effectively and with more support then the riots could have been quashed quickly and the additional loss of life and damage to property might have been avoided. It seems that the police and the people higher up were fearful of being hung out to dry if they took a hard line - they appeared worried about the consequences of doing what needed to be done. This is where the issue of accountability seems to be getting blurred - as though the rioters and looters should be permitted to vent their frustration while we all watch, because the prospect of punishment is conveniently remote.
 
dod said:
Two wrongs don't make a right as they can also see that those guilty of the worst crimes in the expenses scandals etc are going to prison or have already been sentenced. These thugs don't think they'll ever see prison so they feel no disincentive.

Also, if they're saying they don't approve of that behaviour, and are using that as an excuse, all it proves is that they know right from wrong, can think for themselves and just don't care. There simply is no excuse for their behaviour.
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How much solace do you think people from these communities take in the fact that an MP has served a quarter of his jail sentence for fiddling his expenses? I doubt a lot of them at the sharp end of disorder fear prison anyway. Maybe if it was the prison from Midnight Express, but a UK prison? I don't foresee it.
 
And therein you've solved your own question.
Make the prisons more fearful.
 
MartynK said:
It's not really a case of allowing the population to be armed. That right is guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution, and the Supreme Court has recently confirmed that it's an individual right AFAIK. Overturning it would require a two thirds majority in the Senate and the House of Representatives sitting together, I believe. I daresay some presidents and legislators would love to have a go at it, but I doubt if they have the confidence to try. The gun lobby is powerful, and well supported across the board.
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I certainly did see what you describe with respect to the fact that opposition does not and will not get very far. I just wanted to say that I found it frightening and I felt uneasy on occasion.
 
Laudrup said:
I don't see how wanting the police held accountable for their actions is having an 'issue' with them. I know some on here would give them free rein to run about like Gene Hunt on steroids, but this isn't the movies.
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I'd want them to be accountable as well, if they've done anything wrong. Difference is I haven't assumed they're lying or corrupt to start with. I've quoted your first 5 posts in this thread. They absolutely reek of anti police. Why is that, is it due to personal experience or just some political dogma?

Laudrup said:
You don't even need to carry a gun, a table leg or back pack is enough to get executed.
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Laudrup said:
The whole case reeked of police concocting a story. Unless you actually believe he was aiming down the sights of his table leg?
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Laudrup said:
If you treat people brutally then don't be surprised when they react brutally.
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Laudrup said:
When you have so many people who distrust the police down there due to direct dealings with them I don't find it surprising their suspicions and angers are aroused when these shootings happen.
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Laudrup said:
Well what supposedly acted as the catalyst? Police attacking a 16 year old girl. What did the police think would happen as a result of that? It doesn't sound like this whole situation was created from the police being too lenient anyway, it sounds as if being from an ethnic minority and living on that estate was enough justification to be suspected of a crime.
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Laudrup said:
As for other authority, in what context? Religious? Political? This forum?
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Don't know. You tell me, I'm just asking the question. You're answering with one again.
 
ONLY SMARTIES HAVE THE ANSWER
 
Marcel said:
And therein you've solved your own question.
Make the prisons more fearful.
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We have moved on as a society from prisons that resemble Abu Ghraib. It just wouldn't be tolerated or lawful most probably. Even then you look at some of these harsh American sentences (death etc) or the squalid jails in South America and it doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent.
 
Davec223 said:
Absolutely agree with what you are saying. correct me if I am wrong are they not also put on a manslaughter or murder charge and suspended from duty?
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LOL. No - those charges aren't automatic, but they could well follow depending on the circumstances. Any fatal shooting is subject to immediate investigation and scrutiny. Officers wouldn't normally be suspended unless the shooting was very suspect from the outset.
 
dod said:
I'd want them to be accountable as well, if they've done anything wrong. Difference is I haven't assumed they're lying or corrupt to start with. I've quoted your first 5 posts in this thread. They absolutely reek of anti police. Why is that, is it due to personal experience or just some political dogma.

Don't know. You tell me, I'm just asking the question. You're answering with one again.
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So I've to ignore the past and current controversial incidents, and fall in line with the police pep squad? Serfdom holds no appeal to me, thanks.
 
The cost of prisons should be absolute minimal to society.

Outdoor Cages, concrete bed, food recovered from bins of hotels and the like. The money saved to the emergency services and armed forces.


Anyone convicted of these riots should be photographed less the hoody or scarf and uploaded to the big society website...:bat:
 
Laudrup said:
But we don't know if he pointed the gun or not. As for answering for it, how many of them have in all of these fatal shootings?
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Only the one where the officer was found to be wrong. If they haven't done anything wrong there is nothing to answer to is there !! We don't know what happened yet because the investigation is still ongoing
 
CT said:
LOL. No - those charges aren't automatic, but they could well follow depending on the circumstances. Any fatal shooting is subject to immediate investigation and scrutiny. Officers wouldn't normally be suspended unless the shooting was very suspect from the outset.
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Thanks CT for clearing that up. as per your post before, not a nice job and certainly not to be taken lightly. I have every respect for all the armed officers in this country.
 
Laudrup said:
So I've to ignore the past and current controversial incidents, and fall in line with the police pep squad? Serfdom holds no appeal to me, thanks.
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The IPCC will find an officer is at fault if they. They are not part of the police force.
 
AndyB1976 said:
The cost of prisons should be absolute minimal to society.

Outdoor Cages, concrete bed, food recovered from bins of hotels and the like. The money saved to the emergency services and armed forces.


Anyone convicted of these riots should be photographed less the hoody or scarf and uploaded to the big society website...:bat:
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:plus1: and if the prisoners want better food and perks like phone calls and (limited) net access, they can pay for it either with money from the outside, or by working in prison jobs.
 
Laudrup said:
So I've to ignore the past and current controversial incidents, and fall in line with the police pep squad? Serfdom holds no appeal to me, thanks.
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Who said anything about serfdom? This is talking about preserving law and order. Again, you're on about oppression from the police. But what about the oppression of normal law-abiding people (being forced to stay in at night through fear, of having their homes razed to the ground) by the likes of gangsters, drug dealers, rioters, etc...?
 
Laudrup said:
We have moved on as a society from prisons that resemble Abu Ghraib.....
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... to a situation where feral hoodrats are roaming the streets burning and looting with no fear whatver of the consequences

we've moved on alright - whether we have moved in the right direction is strictly debateable

If you think that peace and love are the answer why dont you go find one of the rattus chavus specimens and give them a nice hug and invite them back to your ivory tower for tea... when they've robbed you at knife point and burned your ivory tower to the ground maybe you'll take off the blinkers and rejoin the real world
 
Catdaddy said:
Who said anything about serfdom? This is talking about preserving law and order. Again, you're on about oppression from the police. But what about the oppression of normal law-abiding people (being forced to stay in at night through fear, of having their homes razed to the ground) by the likes of gangsters, drug dealers, rioters, etc...?
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:plus1: however it's no good talking to him about it, he's obviously in support of the rioters ... why else would someone be supporting their case.
 
TCR4x4 said:
I seem to remember about a year ago, a madman in a taxi went on a shooting spree killing many many people. The Police were deeply critised for not responding fast enough and not shooting this man dead at the earliest oportunity.

Now we have a case where a man allegedly had a loaded firearm. The Police responded quickly and effectively with thankfully no further loss of life.
Guess what, they get critised again for shooting an "innocent" man.

So what would you rather?

Let someone with a gun kill 5,10, 15 people before being taken down, or get it over with before they have a chance to kill your wife, maybe your mother or father, maybe your son or daughter.

If you have a gun, real or otherwise in a public place, expect that day to be your last.
I fully support the Police in shooting this guy and am sick of all these soppy do gooders moaning.
FFS, open your eyes and join in with the real world.
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There was this story from a few months back:

http://hackneycitizen.co.uk/2011/05/11/hackney-teenager-caught-with-loaded-gun-and-clown-mask-on-train/

Can you imagine how many deaths there would be if simply having a real or fake gun on your person would mean instant death? There are a raft of guidelines drawn up to avoid the bloodshed you advocate.
 
Laudrup said:
There was this story from a few months back:

http://hackneycitizen.co.uk/2011/05/11/hackney-teenager-caught-with-loaded-gun-and-clown-mask-on-train/

Can you imagine how many deaths there would be if simply having a real or fake gun on your person would mean instant death? There are a raft of guidelines drawn up to avoid the bloodshed you advocate.
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Each situation will be assessed and the best course of action taken to minimise the danger to the public, no-one is saying that possession of a gun (whether real or fake), should mean instant death.

You have to ask yourself why any "normal" member of society would feel the need to be in possession of a loaded handgun and a clown mask in public. Personally I can't think of a legitimate reason.

I'm sure you can though.....:wacky:
 
Laudrup said:
There was this story from a few months back:

http://hackneycitizen.co.uk/2011/05/11/hackney-teenager-caught-with-loaded-gun-and-clown-mask-on-train/

Can you imagine how many deaths there would be if simply having a real or fake gun on your person would mean instant death? There are a raft of guidelines drawn up to avoid the bloodshed you advocate.
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So in one breath, you're advocating adherence to guidelines, and then in the next, you're flatly accusing the police of corruption when, for all you know, they quite probably stuck to the same guidelines, but had a split-second in which to make the decision as to whether they're under threat or not. Could you cope with that kind of responsibility?

And answer me this - if you saw a couple of hoodies running up YOUR road carrying brand new LCD monitors (probably from the warehouse down the bottom of your road) while YOUR kids are playing outside, hopping into a new Lexus with their gear and taking off, what would YOU think? Who would YOU be calling for?
 
Laudrup said:
There was this story from a few months back:

http://hackneycitizen.co.uk/2011/05/11/hackney-teenager-caught-with-loaded-gun-and-clown-mask-on-train/

Can you imagine how many deaths there would be if simply having a real or fake gun on your person would mean instant death? There are a raft of guidelines drawn up to avoid the bloodshed you advocate.
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A Hackney teenager caught carrying a loaded gun and a clown mask on a train in Kent has been jailed for three years following a British Transport Police (BTP) investigation.
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Sorry **** all of a sentence, should have got 10 years.

e 38 year-old man followed Woods into the waiting room at Chatham before having a conversation in which he asked him if he was carrying a gun, a question which Woods answered by pulling the gun from his bag while wearing a sock on his hand.
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So he didnt want his DNA or finger prints on it for what reason?

The gun was removed from the bag and was found to contain a round loaded into the chamber. It was then made safe by the Armed Response officers. A clown mask was also discovered in the bag, which was later found to contain traces of Woods’ DNA.
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So why would you need a clown mask and a loaded Firearm?

The National Ballistics Intelligence Service reported that the gun had been previously used in three gang-related shootings in London, one in which someone had been shot three times with the weapon.
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So that's why he didn't want his finger prints or DNA on it.

“I hope the three-year jail sentence handed down to Woods sends out the clearest possible message that the consequences for those who are found to have live or imitation weapons on the railway are severe.”
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what 3 years is nothing, not going to stop someone who is already breaking the law.

Lets look at the laws he is already breaking

  1. possession of an illegal firearm
  2. possession of illegally held ammuntion
  3. possession of a loaded firearm in a public place
  4. possessions of an uncovered firearm in a public place.

Sorry he will most likely come out and commit a similar crime again . If he had been shot by the police I would have had no sympathy.

He was very lucky not to have been shot.

I have to ask have you ever been arrested or feel that you have been wronged by the police?
 
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Flash In The Pan said:
Each situation will be assessed and the best course of action taken to minimise the danger to the public, no-one is saying that possession of a gun (whether real or fake), should mean instant death.

You have to ask yourself why any "normal" member of society would feel the need to be in possession of a loaded handgun and a clown mask in public. Personally I can't think of a legitimate reason.

I'm sure you can though.....:wacky:
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He probably can... not that we're likely to be graced with it...

footman said:
It's just occurred to me that people convicted of violent offences in the riots will not be able to travel to the USA as a visa would be refused.
Would this apply to travel to other countries including EU countries?
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Not sure about other EU countries. But I do know that in Australia, they wouldn't gain entry if the time they're sentenced was 12 months or over. Still... if they want a **** Britain, why would they want to leave it?
 
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cowasaki said:
The IPCC will find an officer is at fault if they. They are not part of the police force.
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An organisation chided for being incompetent, showing favouritism towards the police, long delays in resolving cases, and important decisions left to people with little to no legal experience or training.

To me that sounds a recipe for disaster. Plus don't they have a significant percentage of staff being ex-police officers or ex-police civilians?
 
footman said:
I was the thinking of holidays rather then emigration.
I'm sure even thugs like their all inclusives!
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Only if the all-inclusives are free! :LOL:
 
Just gone through Piccadilly Gardens on my way to the Railway Station, loads and loads of coppers there, must be still worried that something might kick off.

I'm now on my way to London, was going to meet up with a few friends, one of them is in the Met and was there when it all kicked off last Saturday in Tottenham, probably won't be able to meet up with him now.
 
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