Any imports not through the 'official' manufacturers import channels are grey imports. That includes personal imports.
Sooooo much cheaper- why?
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odd jim
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...only if you buy new cars
If I buy a used one (as a lot of car enthusiasts do) you're buying from an individual.
Okay ... I should have said "banned in this context is another word for illegal".
And its irrelevant as grey imports are NOT illegal. Things like tax avoidance which may go on around grey imports is what is illegal (as I said before).
Its still a grey import under the usual usage of the term*! Whatever YOU want to call it is irrelevant. Its an import which hasn't happened through the 'official' channel!...only if you buy new cars
If I buy a used one (as a lot of car enthusiasts do) you're buying from an individual.
*"Grey import" doesn't have a legal definition.
PS. an exception would be where you buy a car which was originally imported to the UK, then taken to (say) Spain or France before being sold and reimported to the UK which I do know of having happened.
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odd jim
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I don't think it is, as to be 'grey' it has to be outside the terms of agreement between the buyer and the manufacturer (I'm strictly talking used cars here). That's null and void with most vehicle imports and it has to be traded between re-sellers before the end user. It also also has to be a lower cost alternative, but when you are buying a restored specialist vehicle (for example) it would often cost more than the manufacturer charged when new. Buying a used car (sometimes built decades ago!), that was sold initially via the manufacturers approved distribution channel already, then sold on via a private individual I wouldn't say comes under the 'grey import' umbrella.
I think they actually used to call selling of used goods the 'green market' in some cases.
Its a bit of a grey area. Ahem...
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I have feeling that the serial number would indicate which region it was originally destined for.
I am sure it would be rare to be stopped like this but it could be an expensive "rare" event
odd jim
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It would, but the border control agencies wouldn't have access to that information. But it wouldn't matter as it would make no difference where you originally purchased it from, only when, as all they are checking for is that you are not importing them there and then, not what duties have already been paid. If you can prove you had them before you went away, you are not importing them at the present time and it would be very unlikely they'd charge you import duties.
Customs at border control points are ONLY interested in what extra items you are bringing into the country there and then.
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I will give you classic and other second hand cars would be outside of the usual term “grey market”. Grey market doesn’t have to mean cheaper though ... as (I think) you recognised there are many cars from Japan and USA which are not imported through manufacturers channels. Despite the cost (which could be higher than a similar U.K. vehicle) they would still be grey market. Equally grey market can go the other way... in the 90s there was a grey market in USA for Range Rovers and Jaguars due to there being no official import channels.I don't think it is, as to be 'grey' it has to be outside the terms of agreement between the buyer and the manufacturer (I'm strictly talking used cars here). That's null and void with most vehicle imports and it has to be traded between re-sellers before the end user. It also also has to be a lower cost alternative, but when you are buying a restored specialist vehicle (for example) it would often cost more than the manufacturer charged when new. Buying a used car (sometimes built decades ago!), that was sold initially via the manufacturers approved distribution channel already, then sold on via a private individual I wouldn't say comes under the 'grey import' umbrella.
I think they actually used to call selling of used goods the 'green market' in some cases.
Its a bit of a grey area. Ahem...
However I’m really not sure where this is going or where it came from for that matter...
PS. Wikipedia while not a definitive source, would generally agree that second hand car imports would be considered “grey”.
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If I had hair, this discussion would be turning it grey by now ...
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There have been lots of ruses to import cars. At the tail end of the 1990's and the early part of the 2000's it was popular to import Japanese market cars to the UK, both new and used. Both were substantially cheaper in Japan than their UK equivalent, and even after shipping, with all duties and taxes paid, they undercut the UK official cars prices by a margin.
In the mid 2000's it was popular to order RHD cars from other European markets. This was because some countries had twin layers of taxation on cars - both VAT but also a seperate car tax, or a luxury tax, so the cars were often priced cheaply to ensure that the list price across Europe was roughly similar. Buyers from the UK could avoid paying the luxury tax as the car was not being registered in that country, and EU laws meant the cars warranty had to be honoured. However you generally got a 1 year warranty rather than a 3 or 5 year warranty. Still the savings were worthwhile.
Toyota and others made it harder for Japanese import cars to get parts, and their dealers were generally prohibited from servicing, but as that particular fad has died down, they have relaxed their stance and even stock common parts at their European parts HQ.
I imported a number of cars from Japan and Europe for people, and whilst manufacturers were not supplying parts, my contacts in Japan helped me get parts. A particular highlight was being challenged to a fight with Prince Naseem Hamed's (the boxer), but his manager/lackey. I wouldn't give him a discount when he played the 'do you know who I am' card.
In the mid 2000's it was popular to order RHD cars from other European markets. This was because some countries had twin layers of taxation on cars - both VAT but also a seperate car tax, or a luxury tax, so the cars were often priced cheaply to ensure that the list price across Europe was roughly similar. Buyers from the UK could avoid paying the luxury tax as the car was not being registered in that country, and EU laws meant the cars warranty had to be honoured. However you generally got a 1 year warranty rather than a 3 or 5 year warranty. Still the savings were worthwhile.
Toyota and others made it harder for Japanese import cars to get parts, and their dealers were generally prohibited from servicing, but as that particular fad has died down, they have relaxed their stance and even stock common parts at their European parts HQ.
I imported a number of cars from Japan and Europe for people, and whilst manufacturers were not supplying parts, my contacts in Japan helped me get parts. A particular highlight was being challenged to a fight with Prince Naseem Hamed's (the boxer), but his manager/lackey. I wouldn't give him a discount when he played the 'do you know who I am' card.
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As the author of this thread I have to say it has gone on for much longer than I anticipated and taken some interesting twists and turns. And here is yet another, I am no longer in the market for a 600mm lens at this time, last night I bought a used 400mm F2.8 IS II for a very reasonable price. It looks like it has a few marks and has probably been well used but I have 30 days in which i can return it if I do not like it and it was many thousands cheaper than the cheapest 600mm quote. With a 1.4 converter. which I have I still get almost 600mm F4 and the reviews on this lens are superb.
Thank you all for your input it has made for interesting reading
Thank you all for your input it has made for interesting reading
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…they wouldn't deserve it!
Quite right too. Considering the abysmal level of Nikon customer care in this country I'd never swap my Canon warranty for one of theirs!
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HDEWvhave a physical presence in the UK. Go in there, but what you want and ask for a VAT receipt. Get that and you are legit regardless of whether import duty was paid by HDEW.
Kodiak Qc
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Yes, I read of grievances in this direction on this forum
and that's a shame. Here, in Austria, the situation is the
other way around.
You shouldn’t have to ask. It should be displayed on their website.
According to their terms and conditions...
“Please note that by making a purchase on this website you will be acting as the importer of the product for all purposes including all customs regulations,copyright and trademark laws.You accept that the role of HDEW Cameras is limited to sourcing products and making them available for you to import directly from the country of origin.By purchasing a product through this website you authorise us to make arrangements for clearance of customs on your behalf for the products you have ordered.”
I am not sure this will halt the raging bull that this thread has become!
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Yup, that specifically mentions their web site. I'm talkin about a physical over the counter transaction. That's the difference as the goods aren't being sent to you, they are already in the UK. If you walk into their offices I don't see how you can be the importer unless they claim their stock is bonded etc, which it clearly isn't.
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@Fordsabroad the canon 600 f4m2 is an incredible piece of kit, probably my favorite lens. I didn't muck about with grey import as might not be legit, it's quite a risk, might get charged the VAT etc (it comes in very big box that is bound to attract attention) and it could be a hassle if it needs any repair.
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Ask them if different conditions apply.
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Did anyone see the Fake Britain article on TV a couple fo weeks ago? They did an article on this, mainly Canon, and reported that Canon view anything that wasnt made to be sold here as fake, and wont touch it.
They check the serial numbers and if the item was destined for another country its fake.
This seemed way off to me. I know for a fact that Canon have repaired a friends 5D3 brought from HK. Not for free, but then it was about 4 years old so would have had to be paid fro anyway.
Maybe their policies have changed recently.
A few of the grey market companies over here state Canon will do the repairs, I wonder if this is still true. Hopefully I’ll never need to put this to the test.
I do remember the large thread on here and another forum where someone had got a 5D3 from DR and the serial number had been changed, but the camera seemed fine so it wasnt a fake as such, but still something a bit worrying.
They check the serial numbers and if the item was destined for another country its fake.
This seemed way off to me. I know for a fact that Canon have repaired a friends 5D3 brought from HK. Not for free, but then it was about 4 years old so would have had to be paid fro anyway.
Maybe their policies have changed recently.
A few of the grey market companies over here state Canon will do the repairs, I wonder if this is still true. Hopefully I’ll never need to put this to the test.
I do remember the large thread on here and another forum where someone had got a 5D3 from DR and the serial number had been changed, but the camera seemed fine so it wasnt a fake as such, but still something a bit worrying.
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There's a thread on it here https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/fake-britain-bbc1.660855/
It was a farce, but when your programme is called Fake Britain, it's got to be full of fakes - even when they're not.
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Ah cheers, didn’t see that.
That’s a slight misrepresentation of the situation as I understood it...
In the “Fake Britain” case, someone at some point had altered the serial number on the camera since it left the factory. It was this tampering which lead Canon to declare it “counterfeit” and so wouldn’t repair it.
The camera in this specific case was declared counterfeit by Canon because the serial number had been altered. So yes (at least according to Canon) it was fake. A pure grey import will be repaired (though repairs will be charged for).
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I must admit i was only watching it with half an intrest so i missed that bit about the SN being changed. Apologies for posting wrong info.
It’s a bit crap that the part of the article about the Canon Camera showed the guy with only Sony and Sony lenses. They could have at least made a bit of effort to match the video with the narration.
Since the Digital Rev issue a few years ago i always check the SN on the camera with one in the EXIF if i buy grey.
It’s a bit crap that the part of the article about the Canon Camera showed the guy with only Sony and Sony lenses. They could have at least made a bit of effort to match the video with the narration.
Since the Digital Rev issue a few years ago i always check the SN on the camera with one in the EXIF if i buy grey.
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Still nothing from Digital Rev.........so from this we can perhaps assume they can't offer a vat receipt????.....gosh!!! what a surprise!!
To be fair to you I don’t think it was made clear in the BBC programme what happened in the situation they were portraying. Some licences were taken so they could imply that all gre imports are dodgy.
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Grey imports are not fakes and won't be declared as such, they're the actual item, how can they be classified as fakes?!
There were lower level Nikons being sold on the grey market having had their badges removed and re badged as higher spec by a certain company, but that's the only fakery going on. But even they aren't 'fakes', they're just a lower model being fraudulently sold as a higher spec one.
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Exactly. Canon (or was it Nikon) even claimed that with the serial number tampered with, the camera couldn't be identified. Except that the full ID is in the Exif data and they even give you instructions on how to find it with the free software provided.
The whole programme was a nonsense. The only things actually 'fake' were the claims being made by the BBC.
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Which company was doing that???
odd jim
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None of the well known ones.
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Wish I could afford that!
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I don't doubt that HDEW will issue a VAT receipt and I am sure that they would be worth a try for some items, but sadly they do not sell the Canon 600mm lens (I have just spoken to them).
Just to throw another spanner in the works.
An Ebay shop currently has a 600mm F4 advertised in near mint condition with a date code that indicates it was made in 2016. Compared to £11000 new this seems like a good buy. However it comes with no guarantee and no way of knowing if VAT was paid on it initially. I think that puts a different perspective on things and makes the likes of digital rev etc who do give at least guarantee an attractive proposition at around £8000 new.
Maybe people just feel better if they think (or don't have to ask if) VAT has been paid!
Presumably VAT on the sale of the S/H lens will show on the receipt and this would satisfy any customs requirements if taken out of the country.
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Personally I've had good success with second hand lenses. When I got my 600 f4 mkii there were none available second hand and I don't recall seeing any. Seems to be a keeper. I've seen a few mki versions which are a bit longer and heavier.
Some things to think about in the trade-off - Is the one you've seen mki or mkii? If mkii still in warranty? Can you test it before you buy? How much of a discount? Reputable seller?
I could have been tempted by a reliable second hand one. For example I since got the 300 f2.8 mkii second hand from a camera shop at less than 50% of the new price and very happy with that.
Good luck.
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VAT on second-hand items can be all over the place:
- If the seller is a private individual or a small business below the VAT threshold, there won't be any VAT.
- If the seller is a business but not a second hand dealer, any sales of second hand items have to include VAT. For example if I were to sell you one of my Canon 600s for, say, £6000 (to keep the maths simple) that would be £5000 to me and £1000 to HMRC.
- If the seller is a dealer, they almost certainly use the VAT margin scheme. In that case VAT is only paid on their margin, i.e. the difference between what they sell it for and what they originally paid it for it in the first place. For example if I were to sell one of my Canon 600s to such a dealer for £6000 and they were to sell it on to you for £6600, that's a margin of £600 which will be £500 to them and £100 to HMRC.
- If the seller is a dealer the sale might be on a commission basis - that's more common with big items like 600mm lenses for which there is a limited market. In this case the VAT treatment depends on exactly how the deal is structured. If the dealer issues an invoice to you then it's treated as if they were selling the item - they are an "undisclosed agent" and the fact that they are not the owner of the item is irrelevant. Alternatively if the owner issues an invoice to you then it's the owner's VAT status that counts - probably no VAT as it would probably be a private individual. In this latter case the dealer charges the owner a fee for acting as a "disclosed agent" and that fee is subject to VAT, but that's not your concern.
I don't understand this bit. I guess your concern is that if the lens had originally been imported illegally into the UK without any VAT being paid on it, and you went on holiday with it, and customs stopped you on the way back in, they might want the VAT which hadn't originally been paid? If that's your concern, then I think you needn't worry. If you had bought it completely legally within the UK, you're fine.
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That's an interesting explanation of VAT on secondhand items, and explains why it is rarely worth buying 2nd hand if you are VAT registered.
Stewart, do you know if the VAT-registered induividual buying something from a dealer on the margin scheme can claim back the VAT on the margin?
i was under the impression (perhaps wrongly) that some secondhand dealers actually sell on commission (eg Ffordes???) in which case, from what you say, there might be a case for the VAT registered individual buying from them.
You probably didn't want any further questions on this subject but it would clear these issues up for me if you could!
Stewart, do you know if the VAT-registered induividual buying something from a dealer on the margin scheme can claim back the VAT on the margin?
i was under the impression (perhaps wrongly) that some secondhand dealers actually sell on commission (eg Ffordes???) in which case, from what you say, there might be a case for the VAT registered individual buying from them.
You probably didn't want any further questions on this subject but it would clear these issues up for me if you could!
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Unfortunately it is no longer available on ebay.
I spoke to the seller, which was a shop in Manchester and they told me that it was a chap who had bought it last year (and the date code seemed to confirm this) and was changing to Nikon. The lens was originally supplied from the UK and it all seemed OK, plus there was a 30 day return policy. I was quite happy with the explanation - the problem is this is definitely a "Want" not "need" purchase and whilst I pondered over was I saving £3500 or spending £7500 the lens was sold. You snooze you lose as they say.
I have to say that tempted as I am by the 600mm not only is it a huge outlay it appears to be a beast of a lens to carry around and use, I certainly don't think I could hand hold it for anything more than a short burst.