Street Photography

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madmatt

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So i thought i would share my story, as i think its got to the point now where something needs to change.

Last night i ventured out around Cardiff for my first ever attempt at street photography (images can be found here...http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/cardiff-by-night.521092/)

we were going to walk around, take photos of the Christmas lights and winter wonderland. I had a shot in my head, that i would like to get the big wheel at the wonderland in the background of the ice-rink, and the people blurred out so as to not distract away from the image. after a few mins of taking this photo, the manager approached myself and the fellow photographer and asked what we were doing. We said we were out taking photos of cardiff at night as part of our hobby.

"you cant take photos of the ice rink, there are children there and you need written permission off the parents to take there photos here...."

now this wound me up quite quickly, because she said it in a very loud voice to get other people around us attention, and basically made me out to be a pedophile. I argued the fact i wasnt taking photos of the children, infact you couldnt see anyone at all in the images, but she wouldnt even listen to me at this point and told us we must leave and could take photos of the lights from a distance.

she wouldnt listen and walked off. stood in disbelief we started to talk about what had just happened, with the jobsworth then walking back towards us. i politely asked if i could have her name, to which she gave me some made up one, then she started getting more aggressive, asking what my name was, why i was wearing and carrying professional photography camera's, why i didnt have a business card, why was i taking photos of children, then she said i must delete my images, and that she has made others delete them to. At this point my other photographer friend came back and she was just repeating herself, basically making out we were some kind of pedos for having a big camera!

NEVER have i felt so insulted in all of my life, and something needs to change in society to stop the scare mongering that anyone with a pro camera is out to take photos of children!!!

so consider this, little lady from winter wonderland with the short hair and ear piece you had to keep touching.... i will be writing and making a formal complaint about you.

and if you are interested....this is the image that made me a p***!


5E9A1482 by treasuredphotography, on Flickr

and here is the sign i was stood next to...

winter rules by treasuredphotography, on Flickr
 
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This same story keeps re-appearing on a regular basis. No one not even the police can make you delete images. Read the letter below which has been given out to all serving police officers.

By the way, super shot.







Dear Colleagues

Guidance for Photographers

I am writing to you in my capacity as Chair of the ACPO Communications Advisory Group which sits in the Presidential Business Area.

There have been a number of recent instances highlighted in the press where officers have detained photographers and deleted images from their cameras. I seek your support in reminding your officers and staff that they should not prevent anyone from taking photographs in public. This applies equally to members of the media and public seeking to record images, who do not need a permit to photograph or film in public places. ACPO guidance is as follows:


• There are no powers prohibiting the taking of photographs, film or digital images in a public place. Therefore members of the public and press should not be prevented from doing so.


• We need to cooperate with the media and amateur photographers. They play a vital role as their images help us identify criminals.


• We must acknowledge that citizen journalism is a feature of modern life and police officers are now photographed and filmed more than ever.


• Unnecessarily restricting photography, whether for the casual tourist or professional is unacceptable and it undermines public confidence in the police service.


• Once an image has been recorded, the police have no power to delete or confiscate it without a court order.

If you require further guidance please refer to the ACPO website or contact my Staff Officer Robin Edwards



ALL PHOTOGRAPHERS FEEL FREE TO PRINT THIS OUT AND KEEP ON YOUR PERSON......................
 
IF you were on private property, she may have been well within her rights asking you to leave and to stop taking photographs. She may also be well within her rights to bar you from setting foot on the property ever again.

As said above though, NO rights to demand you delete any images from the card or camera unless so ordered by a court of law.
 
Stand your ground! ... cant wait for some "nomark" to challenge me for taking photographs in a public place ....they will get it with both barrels
 
Wonder how many people were there taking snaps/vids with their Smartphones? I guess that's OK 'cause it's not photography!!
 
So the organisers can photograph anyone there without further permission, AND use the images however they wish??

Well that's there prerogative it would seem, BUT the treatment of the OP sounds like the individual member of staff has been reading too many pages on Facebook.

Will be interested to see how the OP's complaint is dealt with.

Nice picture as well :)

David
 
That's not a very Welcoming 'Welcome notice' :) Basically saying they can take photos and CCTV of you and do what they like with it but don't you dare take any photos yourself.

I had a similar experience last year when taking photos of the Edinburgh Christmas market /fair thing and 2 security guards approached me and said "you are not allowed to take photos here" to which I replied "why is that, because it's a public space so it should be okay?". (Event is in Princes Street Gardens, a public park). Reply "it's not a public space when this event is on, it's run by a private company". Me: "Oh, well then what about all these other people taking photos, why are you not asking them to stop?"
Reply: "They are just using their phones to take pictures of their own kids, you are here on your own". Me "Er, yes photography is my hobby".

Eventually they said - "okay, you can take photos but you cannot use that thing" (pointing to tripod). Tripod was on the steps of a monument by the way, where nobody was walking - I hate getting in peoples way so I had made sure I was well off to the side where nobody else was and there was no through traffic. I said "well it might be a bit tricky to take the long exposure photos I was trying to take without this (tripod) though" (like your photos, no people were identifiable in my shots anyway - I was after the streaky lights effect of the wheel.)

Packed up and went home early a bit dejected and p'd off - mentioned it on twitter with an @ to the organisers and next day they replied to say all security staff had been briefed at the morning staff meeting that photographers were welcome. Result! So might be worth making a fuss on social media - although I guess given the 'not welcome' Welcome sign (never seen one like that before!) and if it's on private property they are probably within their rights - no need for any implied accusations though.

Saying that - as a middle aged man who often goes out taking photos alone I get the occassional 'look' from parents even when the camera is not even pointed in their direction or has the lens cap on! Happens a lot according to other photographer folk I know so I guess you just have to put up with it sadly.
 
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applemint said:
That's not a very Welcoming 'Welcome notice' :) Basically saying they can take photos and CCTV of you and do what they like with it but don't you dare take any photos yourself.
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No it doesn't. It says you need a permit if you want to shoot commercially, that they may have official photographers there, and if you don't want them to use an image of you - just tell them and they will oblige. Which is all very reasonable, unlike the woman who approached the OP.
 
madmatt said:
and something needs to change in society to stop the scare mongering that anyone with a pro camera is out to take photos of children!!!
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it aint going to change.. if every photogrpaher in the country says somehting... it still aint going to change..its the way of the world.. understand it.. work around it...
 
Remember, if you buy those scare mongering rags like the Daily Mail and most of the redtops (or even visit their websites), you are part of the problem.
 
sbowler,

That's an interesting letter, and thank you for posting its contents here; I don't mean to be pedantic, but do you have a scanned copy? As that would be very helpful to keep handy.
 
"Management reserve the right to refuse entry ..." would tend to indicate that this was not a 'public place' but rather a 'private place to which the public have access' - if that is correct the management can make whatever rules of admission they wish, as it says, "The purpose of photography may be questioned".
Obviously she appears to have been unwelcoming and unfriendly but it would be wrong to assume that we can do what we like in a private place.
 
Gramps,

While I totally agree with you, what about a public place that's been rented out to a private enterprise / business? As is the case in most fairs and open street events.
 
Agreed. If this is a private place, to which the public have access, the owners and/or management can impose terms and conditions of entry, providing these are lawful. The notice does imply that this is the case and specifically states that "The purpose of photography may be questioned by staff" as the previous poster said, although I think this may have more to do with determining whether it is "professional" or not.

None of this excuses the woman's behaviour. Most of us will respond to a low key, courteous, approach in these circumstances but it sounds as if she was begging for a confrontation and an opportunity to exercise her "authority". I wonder how she would have reacted if the OP had told her he felt threatened and was calling the police?
 
Phil Young said:
If this was in london, I would propose a bunch if us get together and with our buggest lenses, go take photos of this lady, right in front of her...just to be annoying.

Ignorant so and so.
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Oh yes! That'd be sure to help!

:clap::clap::clap:
 
Jon, as he says, "ignorant so and so"...
 
Nod said:
Jon, as he says, "ignorant so and so"...
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Sure, but getting all confrontational about it can only make things worse.

Before going to any of these things, why not contact the organisers and ask what policy is? If it's on private land, they can dictate terms. But you could still ask for permission, and it may be granted. If in a public place, check with the police that photography is permitted (it almost certainly is), then contact the organisers, say you have spoken to the police who have confirmed that the law is on your side, ask who will be in charge at the venue because you want to introduce yourself to save any misunderstanding. In other words, make sure they know you are coming.

Yes I know that none of this should be necessary, but it depends if you are more interested in getting some nice shots or 'standing on your rights'.
A smile will get you further than a an argument.
 
i have been told a few different things now, that it is on public property outside the city hall, but its rented off them seems to be the popular response. wish i could find something official out. As i didnt know if it was private or public i didnt want to stay around and cause an even bigger scene.

A friend pointed me in the direction of the Merthyr council story yesterday, after reading all of that, plus the response from MCBC i was appalled.
 
jon ryan said:
Sure, but getting all confrontational about it can only make things worse.

Before going to any of these things, why not contact the organisers and ask what policy is? If it's on private land, they can dictate terms. But you could still ask for permission, and it may be granted. If in a public place, check with the police that photography is permitted (it almost certainly is), then contact the organisers, say you have spoken to the police who have confirmed that the law is on your side, ask who will be in charge at the venue because you want to introduce yourself to save any misunderstanding. In other words, make sure they know you are coming.

Yes I know that none of this should be necessary, but it depends if you are more interested in getting some nice shots or 'standing on your rights'.
A smile will get you further than a an argument.
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jon trust me, i tried that approach first, she wasnt having any of it. its not like me at all to get into an argument.
 
you were far too polite, should of just told her to **** off. If she escalated it there would be more of a chance of someone who knows the law being dragged into it.
 
Musicman said:
The most troubling element of the story and where she stepped way over the line
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That is the big problem,quite often they step over the line had a few times myself :(

A few years ago had a bad one outside an Debenhams shop,i did a complaint which was followed thought,the end result was a phone call the Debenhams management saying that the person had fallen well below the stranded expected of their staff,and he would be dealt with.
 
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simonblue said:
I know i remember this very bad,i think photographer was involve in the fact the person was using a camera to Video and take photos of his neighborhood inc kids who had been causing trouble and anti social behavior toward him,to keep an record of it,
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Thousands of jobs involving kids over the last fifteen years (two yesterday), and not a single serious problem. How does that happen then?
 
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