The Amazing Sony A1/A7/A9/APS-C & Anything else welcome Mega Thread!

[woof woof]

numbers aren't all over the place, its that they are on two different scales.
you can't directly compare DXO numbers with Bill's number unless you convert one from the other (results of which he has also published on his website if you want to a comparison between two data sets)

Bill's explained it on dpreview:

Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) is a More Useful Measure than the DxOMark Landscape Score: Photographic Science and Technology Forum: Digital Photography Review

Expert news, reviews and videos of the latest digital cameras, lenses, accessories, and phones. Get answers to your questions in our photography forums.

www.dpreview.com

Golly Gosh.

How difficult can this be? Stops are easy enough to understand but all the palaver and conflicting numbers. Makes me think Vicky Pollard is in this somewhere

I suppose the thing is to look at a source, it doesn't seem to matter which, and how the cameras compare to each other within that source as I suppose the conflicting sources will have the various cameras in approximately the same order. Hopefully.

 

[nandbytes]

Golly Gosh.

How difficult can this be? Stops are easy enough to understand but all the palaver and conflicting numbers. Makes me think Vicky Pollard is in this somewhere

I suppose the thing is to look at a source, it doesn't seem to matter which, and how the cameras compare to each other within that source as I suppose the conflicting sources will have the various cameras in approximately the same order. Hopefully.

unfortunately DXO isn't a very good source full of obvious mistakes and inconsistencies. doesn't provide data I could trust.

 

[woof woof]

unfortunately DXO isn't a very good source full of obvious mistakes and inconsistencies. doesn't provide data I could trust.

I will have a look at that guys data but as long as the cameras are in approximately the right order I wont worry too much about the actual numbers although it does seem that these people all have their idiosyncrasies that make it difficult to be sure there'll be any real advantage going from one camera to another.

I had hoped that measuring DR was as easy as the step wedge tests I used to see being carried out at a pcb manufacturer but it appears not.

 

[snerkler]

unfortunately DXO isn't a very good source full of obvious mistakes and inconsistencies. doesn't provide data I could trust.

I don’t take their data, or the other one, as absolute but it’s a good guide when comparing with other cameras. At the end of the day I don’t fully know what 14ev or 15ev is except for how much difference there is between light and dark. But how this portrays in the real world, how this will look after PP etc etc I don’t fully know how it translates. For example one camera might have 14ev but better at preserving highlights, one might have 14ev and be better at shadows and produce less noise when pushed in PP.

My Olly EM1-II had 13 odd ev from memory (DXO) and I could push them pretty hard in PP, my D750 had 14.5 ev and I could pull up the shadows better. My A9ii has 14ev and from my use I can pull up the shadows as well as I could from the D750.

 

[nandbytes]

I will have a look at that guys data but as long as the cameras are in approximately the right order I wont worry too much about the actual numbers although it does seem that these people all have their idiosyncrasies that make it difficult to be sure there'll be any real advantage going from one camera to another.

I had hoped that measuring DR was as easy as the step wedge tests I used to see being carried out at a pcb manufacturer but it appears not.

I don’t take their data, or the other one, as absolute but it’s a good guide when comparing with other cameras. At the end of the day I don’t fully know what 14ev or 15ev is except for how much difference there is between light and dark. But how this portrays in the real world, how this will look after PP etc etc I don’t fully know how it translates. For example one camera might have 14ev but better at preserving highlights, one might have 14ev and be better at shadows and produce less noise when pushed in PP.

My Olly EM1-II had 13 odd ev from memory (DXO) and I could push them pretty hard in PP, my D750 had 14.5 ev and I could pull up the shadows better. My A9ii has 14ev and from my use I can pull up the shadows as well as I could from the D750.

For its not just about comparing and sensors, well it is but not for comparing d**k sizes.
For example photonstophotos shows where the dual gain is on different sensors, at which point my bodies are ISO invariant so on and so forth. That really helps in the way I shoot.
I mostly never shoot above ISO400 on A7RIV or ISO640 on A7III because there is almost no point doing so. I can bump it up in post.
And as @snerkler said it gives you an idea on how far you can push your files. But DXO being inconsistent here doesn't help, DXO for example will tell you that you can push A7RII files more than A99ii when that is not actually the case.
So I couldn't use DXO to make these judgements for shooting.

 

[woof woof]

On the whole I think I'd normally prefer the more engineering approach rather than one based on what is acceptable to someone and building in a start point from that viewpoint although both approaches clearly have their weaknesses and merits and must start somewhere and be relative to something. The comment on the 4x4 in the woods picture demonstrates this for me as it's unacceptable to the author of the DR measuring system and clearly this is a judgement call. I'd always take the picture rather than not bother as if the result is technically dire it can still be acceptable (as in better than nothing) even if we have to spend time on the computer, fiddle with it and as a last resort convert it to mono to enable us to keep it and look at it now and again as a record of an event or evocative moment in time. Like those technically awful pictures of Mrs WW I posted a few days ago. They're technically horrible image quality wise but Mrs WW wanted them as they're a record and a memory of a moment in time with her dog who died within months.

I think either DXO or the guy you linked to will do as a reference for me as at least I can rank the cameras in some sort of order and assume that this may be better than that. Sort of. Most of this seems to be related to what happens when you lift the shadows so I think I might do some little comparison shots just for myself so I can see just how far my A7 pictures can be pushed when protecting the highlights. I have done this before by shooting indoors and trying to protect the highlights and lift the shadow and managed to prove to myself that my A7 is significantly better than my MFT cameras in this regard but I'll have another go, a bit more carefully this time. Lifting the shadows does give problems and for me sometimes it's going to be better to just let the highlights blow.

PS.
Deciding which camera may be better than another image quality and dynamic range wise by looking at these sites, graphs and tables is probably still rather difficult. I can be sure that my A7 is a definite and significant step up from any Canon DSLR I had and that it's also a significant step up from my Panasonic MFT cameras. It's more difficult to say by looking at these sites if an A7III or A9 would be a significant step forward or not. I suppose I'd have to try one to be sure or listen to people who've used and compared the cameras.

 

[LeeRatters]

Her - Can you build me a new fireplace. But I don't want it too dark, I want natural wood.

Me - Yeah, no problem.

Start assembly and test fitting this morning.

Her - I think it would look good dark and burnt. Like those pieces you done to mount the wall lights on..... Can you do that....?

Me - :banghead:

 

[snerkler]

For its not just about comparing and sensors, well it is but not for comparing d**k sizes.
For example photonstophotos shows where the dual gain is on different sensors, at which point my bodies are ISO invariant so on and so forth. That really helps in the way I shoot.
I mostly never shoot above ISO400 on A7RIV or ISO640 on A7III because there is almost no point doing so. I can bump it up in post.
And as @snerkler said it gives you an idea on how far you can push your files. But DXO being inconsistent here doesn't help, DXO for example will tell you that you can push A7RII files more than A99ii when that is not actually the case.
So I couldn't use DXO to make these judgements for shooting.

I don’t even know what dual gain is

Are all Sony sensors ISO invariant? I always try to get it right in camera first tbh I don’t see any reason to deliberately underexpose every time just to bump in post, unless of course by doing so retains better DR?

 

[Mr Perceptive]

Deciding which camera may be better than another image quality and dynamic range wise by looking at these sites, graphs and tables is probably still rather difficult. I can be sure that my A7 is a definite and significant step up from any Canon DSLR I had and that it's also a significant step up from my Panasonic MFT cameras. It's more difficult to say by looking at these sites if an A7III or A9 would be a significant step forward or not. I suppose I'd have to try one to be sure or listen to people who've used and compared the cameras.

Why not buy a s/h one that is at a good price, use it, then if after a couple of months you don't like it, sell it - you'll get back pretty much what you paid for it, if not the same - you just have to buy at the right price.

If you then decide you really want a new one, you can still sell the s/h one (getting your money back) and buy the new one.

Given the fact that new models (ie the next Sony A7IV) typically are coming in much higher than the current retail price of the current Sony A7III, you are still unlikely to lose money if a new model was launched during your 'trial' period.

You are never going to know until its been in your hands for a good few weeks.

 

[f/2.8]

Mmm first world problem.

My accountant has said this morning that I need to burn some money before the end of the financial year, I had already dumped some money into marketing and a few other things but I still have a couple of grand I need to spend. Which is nuts as this year has been pretty much a right off considering how little we have worked but due to receiving some government grants and spending very little this year, I need to burn some money.

I was waiting for the new 50 f/1.2 but even if that does launch this month it will go on pre order and the invoice date will be in the next financial year.

I was also at some point gonna get the 35GM but it is also still showing pre order and while my local WEX could have invoiced me earlier seemingly if I buy through the website they can't which means it would go into next financial year.

Have no idea what to do can't think of anything I need or want, definitely don't want to buy another body at the moment.

 

[snerkler]

Mmm first world problem.

My accountant has said this morning that I need to burn some money before the end of the financial year, I had already dumped some money into marketing and a few other things but I still have a couple of grand I need to spend. Which is nuts as this year has been pretty much a right off considering how little we have worked but due to receiving some government grants and spending very little this year, I need to burn some money.

I was waiting for the new 50 f/1.2 but even if that does launch this month it will go on pre order and the invoice date will be in the next financial year.

I was also at some point gonna get the 35GM but it is also still showing pre order and while my local WEX could have invoiced me earlier seemingly if I buy through the website they can't which means it would go into next financial year.

Have no idea what to do can't think of anything I need or want, definitely don't want to buy another body at the moment.

You could always buy me the Tamron 70-180mm as a gift if you’re desperate?

 

[woof woof]

Her - Can you build me a new fireplace. But I don't want it too dark, I want natural wood.

Me - Yeah, no problem.

Start assembly and test fitting this morning.

Her - I think it would look good dark and burnt. Like those pieces you done to mount the wall lights on..... Can you do that....?

Me - :banghead:

As good as it gets...

Jackie: How do you write women so well?
Melvin Udall: I think of a man. And I take away reason and accountability.

Lost, Sawyer to Jin, the only three things a woman needs to hear.

I'm sorry
You were right.
Those pants don't make you look fat.

 

[woof woof]

Why not buy a s/h one that is at a good price, use it, then if after a couple of months you don't like it, sell it - you'll get back pretty much what you paid for it, if not the same - you just have to buy at the right price.

If you then decide you really want a new one, you can still sell the s/h one (getting your money back) and buy the new one.

Given the fact that new models (ie the next Sony A7IV) typically are coming in much higher than the current retail price of the current Sony A7III, you are still unlikely to lose money if a new model was launched during your 'trial' period.

You are never going to know until its been in your hands for a good few weeks.

Yes, that's probably it unless there's a clear test or review that covers what I need to know. I probably just wont bother buying a new camera unless my A7 packs up. The A7c is something different and could have persuaded me to buy before my A7 dies but the lack of a front dial and the mechanical shutter being limited to 1/4,000 with no way to automate switching from mechanical to electronic shutter are enough to stop me, although I can understand others being perfectly happy.

The one thing I would gain from a new camera is silent shooting for indoor social use as this is something that I still occasionally use MFT for but even then there's the worry of banding under artificial lighting.

 

[woof woof]

Mmm first world problem.

My accountant has said this morning that I need to burn some money before the end of the financial year, I had already dumped some money into marketing and a few other things but I still have a couple of grand I need to spend. Which is nuts as this year has been pretty much a right off considering how little we have worked but due to receiving some government grants and spending very little this year, I need to burn some money.

I was waiting for the new 50 f/1.2 but even if that does launch this month it will go on pre order and the invoice date will be in the next financial year.

I was also at some point gonna get the 35GM but it is also still showing pre order and while my local WEX could have invoiced me earlier seemingly if I buy through the website they can't which means it would go into next financial year.

Have no idea what to do can't think of anything I need or want, definitely don't want to buy another body at the moment.

Is there nothing you want just for fun? Voigtlander 50mm f2 apo, a really wide or long lens or even a fisheye for example... or anything else that's outside of the usual that you might get a kick out of?

 

[addicknchips]

Yes, that's probably it unless there's a clear test or review that covers what I need to know. I probably just wont bother buying a new camera unless my A7 packs up. The A7c is something different and could have persuaded me to buy before my A7 dies but the lack of a front dial and the mechanical shutter being limited to 1/4,000 with no way to automate switching from mechanical to electronic shutter are enough to stop me, although I can understand others being perfectly happy.

The one thing I would gain from a new camera is silent shooting for indoor social use as this is something that I still occasionally use MFT for but even then there's the worry of banding under artificial lighting.

personally i'd avoid electronic shutter indoors unless using a9/a9ii. the risk of banding with the a9 is there but very low IME.

 

[nandbytes]

I don’t even know what dual gain is

Are all Sony sensors ISO invariant? I always try to get it right in camera first tbh I don’t see any reason to deliberately underexpose every time just to bump in post, unless of course by doing so retains better DR?

So the early ones A7, A7ii, A7r were all ISO invariant.
From A7Rii onwards Sony started using a dual gain design where by you get a second boost in dynamic range, almost like having "two base ISOs". You'd never know looking at DXO graphs

Sony sensors are invariant after the second dynamic range boost. This ISO point used to be at ISO640 on Sony bodies. In A7RIV it's at ISO 400 and with A1 it seems to be at ISO500.

I shoot at these ISOs because there isn't much point bumping it beyond the second base ISO in camera. Might as well retain the dynamic range and work it in post.
Also forces me make best of shutter speed and aperture. We aren't limited like in film days so I can reduce/drag the shutter speed, burst 4-5 shots and get one fully sharp without much noise.
Anyway that's how I shoot, not that there is a right or wrong way of doing it.

 

[snerkler]

So the early ones A7, A7ii, A7r were all ISO invariant.
From A7Rii onwards Sony started using a dual gain design where by you get a second boost in dynamic range, almost like having "two base ISOs". You'd never know looking at DXO graphs

Sony sensors are invariant after the second dynamic range boost. This ISO point used to be at ISO640 on Sony bodies. In A7RIV it's at ISO 400 and with A1 it seems to be at ISO500.

I shoot at these ISOs because there isn't much point bumping it beyond the second base ISO in camera. Might as well retain the dynamic range and work it in post.
Also forces me make best of shutter speed and aperture. We aren't limited like in film days so I can reduce/drag the shutter speed, burst 4-5 shots and get one fully sharp without much noise.
Anyway that's how I shoot, not that there is a right or wrong way of doing it.

I guess it depends on what you shoot, some things just require shutters of 1/1000 and faster and without bumping ISO you'd be forced to raise by several stops in post which I doubt would look great, and you may not even be able to achieve

 

[gman]

I don’t even know what dual gain is

Are all Sony sensors ISO invariant? I always try to get it right in camera first tbh I don’t see any reason to deliberately underexpose every time just to bump in post, unless of course by doing so retains better DR?

As soon as I read the earlier post I went to check if my A9 was, but it appears that it isn't. I did learn that I could actually be better shooting at ISO 640 upwards to get more dynamic range.

 

[nandbytes]

I guess it depends on what you shoot, some things just require shutters of 1/1000 and faster and without bumping ISO you'd be forced to raise by several stops in post which I doubt would look great, and you may not even be able to achieve

I normally start higher and once have got my shot I slowly reduce the shutter speed and push the limits. If it doesn't work out then no worries I still have the earlier shots at higher shutter speeds.
But you are right I can't always drop the shutter speed especially for action.

Raising several stops in post is no different to bumping it in camera. So might as well so it post.

I generally don't shoot beyond ISO6400 or bump more than 4 stops anyway.

 

[snerkler]

.

As soon as I read the earlier post I went to check if my A9 was, but it appears that it isn't. I did learn that I could actually be better shooting at ISO 640 upwards to get more dynamic range.

Just read up myself, seems neither A9’s are ISO invariant due to the stacked sensor. The mark II does have better shadow recovery though as the mark I apparently gives an odd pattern when lifting shadows.

 

[snerkler]

I normally start higher and once have got my shot I slowly reduce the shutter speed and push the limits. If it doesn't work out then no worries I still have the earlier shots at higher shutter speeds.
But you are right I can't always drop the shutter speed especially for action.

Raising several stops in post is no different to bumping it in camera. So might as well so it post.

I generally don't shoot beyond ISO6400 or bump more than 4 stops anyway.

Looks like my camera isn’t ISO invariant so I’ll continue to expose “correctly”

 

[nandbytes]

Looks like my camera isn’t ISO invariant so I’ll continue to expose “correctly”

ah also most forgot you had the A9/ii, still thinking you had the A7RIV.
reason #1001 I wouldn't buy the A9/ii

 

[robj20]

So where does the A7C/3 stand on all this ISO stuff?

 

[nandbytes]

So where does the A7C/3 stand on all this ISO stuff?

Also uses dual gain. second "base" at ISO 640.
There is almost no point shooting at ISO400 on A7C. you better off sticking to ISO100/200 or bump to ISO640 after that to maximise dynamic range.

past ISO 640 its ISO invariant, so you will get the same results bumping it in post as your would by bumping ISO in camera.
(its also ISO invariant between ISO100-400).

Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting

www.photonstophotos.net

 

[LeeRatters]

Her - Can you build me a new fireplace. But I don't want it too dark, I want natural wood.

Me - Yeah, no problem.

Start assembly and test fitting this morning.

Her - I think it would look good dark and burnt. Like those pieces you done to mount the wall lights on..... Can you do that....?

Me - :banghead:

As good as it gets...

Jackie: How do you write women so well?
Melvin Udall: I think of a man. And I take away reason and accountability.

Lost, Sawyer to Jin, the only three things a woman needs to hear.

I'm sorry
You were right.
Those pants don't make you look fat.

Took it back into work (I've got a few days of) and fully blasted and then brushed it out with the industrial propane gun

She wanted darker. She's got darker

 

[snerkler]

ah also most forgot you had the A9/ii, still thinking you had the A7RIV.
reason #1001 I wouldn't buy the A9/ii

I’ve never really bothered with ISO invariance despite having several ISO invariant cameras, it’s nice to know it’s there if I completely balls up and exposure but otherwise I’ll just expose as I always have done.

Also uses dual gain. second "base" at ISO 640.
There is almost no point shooting at ISO400 on A7C. you better off sticking to ISO100/200 or bump to ISO640 after that to maximise dynamic range.

past ISO 640 its ISO invariant, so you will get the same results bumping it in post as your would by bumping ISO in camera.
(its also ISO invariant between ISO100-400).

Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting

www.photonstophotos.net

Is this the same for the A9’s then max DR at 100 and 640, then invariant after 640? That’s useful to know if I’m shooting a city scene or something in bad light without a tripod I can bump ISO up to 640 to reduce camera shake

 

[nandbytes]

Is this the same for the A9’s then max DR at 100 and 640, then invariant after 640? That’s useful to know if I’m shooting a city scene or something in bad light without a tripod I can bump ISO up to 640 to reduce camera shake

A9 does have dual gain at ISO 640 but I don't think its invariant after ISO640

its one dpreview's favourite things to test, it about half down the page

Sony a9 Full Review: Mirrorless Redefined

With the 24MP, 20fps full-frame mirrorless a9, Sony is clearly looking to shake up the sports and action photographer market. Read our full review to find out if we think it might succeed.

www.dpreview.com

 

[G.K.Jnr.]

Just a simple Snapograph taken at Kent UK of a Local Church Tower that should have had two bells, but apparently according to the info inside the church the construction was never completed due to lack of finance, so it ended up with only one bell.
I've deliberately gone for a higher contrast gritty look for this snap to emphasize the various textures.

RX10M4, 1/500th @ F5.6, ISO-200, Handheld.
Local Church Tower-03512 by G.K.Jnr., on Flickr

for looking.,

 

[woof woof]

The rumor site reports that Gerald Undone thinks that the Sony A1 is rather good...

Gerald Undone finds out that the Sony A1 is even better than expected – sonyalpharumors

www.sonyalpharumors.com

I don't know if he says this or if this is a quote from the rumor guy...

"Game Set and Match for Sony! This is the best mirrorless camera on the market. The only real issue here is the big price "

What strikes me is yet again people are whinging about the price. In isolation I can see it's expensive but few things exist in isolation and although Neither Canon or Nikon have a mirrorless equivalent to the A1 they do have top end DSLR's which I think I'm right in saying cost the same or more.

Is this still the Sony factor? Do people still think Sony cameras should be £60 because that's what a Sony DVD player costs

Anyway, here's a direct link to the Gerald Undone piece on Youtube.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJfqW7_mvlg&feature=emb_logo

 

[snerkler]

A9 does have dual gain at ISO 640 but I don't think its invariant after ISO640

its one dpreview's favourite things to test, it about half down the page

Sony a9 Full Review: Mirrorless Redefined

With the 24MP, 20fps full-frame mirrorless a9, Sony is clearly looking to shake up the sports and action photographer market. Read our full review to find out if we think it might succeed.

www.dpreview.com

I wonder why manufacturers don’t publish this, that for me is very useful to know

 

[snerkler]

The rumor site reports that Gerald Undone thinks that the Sony A1 is rather good...

Gerald Undone finds out that the Sony A1 is even better than expected – sonyalpharumors

www.sonyalpharumors.com

I don't know if he says this or if this is a quote from the rumor guy...

"Game Set and Match for Sony! This is the best mirrorless camera on the market. The only real issue here is the big price "

What strikes me is yet again people are whinging about the price. In isolation I can see it's expensive but few things exist in isolation and although Neither Canon or Nikon have a mirrorless equivalent to the A1 they do have top end DSLR's which I think I'm right in saying cost the same or more.

Is this still the Sony factor? Do people still think Sony cameras should be £60 because that's what a Sony DVD player costs

Anyway, here's a direct link to the Gerald Undone piece on Youtube.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJfqW7_mvlg&feature=emb_logo

I’ve never really watched this fella, does he talk sense? The only thing that “irks” me with this camera is the LCD screen. Yes 1440000 dots is “fine” and yes I’ve happily used screen like this on my A7RIV and A9ii, but it’s £6.5k. I get the price is in keeping with the market with this kind of camera, but at least put a class leading LCD screen.

 

[woof woof]

I’ve never really watched this fella, does he talk sense? The only thing that “irks” me with this camera is the LCD screen. Yes 1440000 dots is “fine” and yes I’ve happily used screen like this on my A7RIV and A9ii, but it’s £6.5k. I get the price is in keeping with the market with this kind of camera, but at least put a class leading LCD screen.

No idea.


I do read or watch the odd review but in reality I'm never going to buy a camera that costs this much.

I did get an email from ERNIE the other day saying I'd won but I expect it's only £25

 

[GyRob]

I take it you guys are talking about raw regarding invariant ?

Rob.

 

[snerkler]

I take it you guys are talking about raw regarding invariant ?

Rob.

I'd imagine so.

 

[ancient_mariner]

I take it you guys are talking about raw regarding invariant ?

Rob.

Yes - jpg files have no latitude, the exposure being baked in at creation.

 

[nandbytes]

@rob-nikon - exactly your case explored here 28-200mm vs. 24-105mm+70-200mm f4 for landscapes
he basically starts off with the same thought process as you.... might be worth watching

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgjvBQ16HE0&ab_channel=MadsPeterIversen

 

[ancient_mariner]

@rob-nikon - exactly your case explored here 28-200mm vs. 24-105mm+70-200mm f4 for landscapes
he basically starts off with the same thought process as you.... might be worth watching

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgjvBQ16HE0&ab_channel=MadsPeterIversen

Interesting.

 

[snerkler]

I wonder if the A1’s low frame rate limit function might filter down to the A9’s to allow a better frame response during slow shutter panning when using electronic shutter?

 

[rob-nikon]

@rob-nikon - exactly your case explored here 28-200mm vs. 24-105mm+70-200mm f4 for landscapes
he basically starts off with the same thought process as you.... might be worth watching

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgjvBQ16HE0&ab_channel=MadsPeterIversen

thanks I will have a look

 

[robj20]

Lens is almost here, annoyingly I've just realised E-infinity must be based locally to me. It's in Salford, I could walk there in half an hour.

MANCHESTER - SALFORD - UK

MANCHESTER - CLIFTON SWINTON - UK