The best way to fake stage lights in the studio?

TimHughes

TimHughes

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For an upcoming shoot, I'll need to turn the studio into a stage, which means black background, haze, fog and backlit with coloured stage lights in the shot, combined with flash. I'd welcome thoughts on the best options for stage lights. Here is what I'm thinking so far:

1. Real stage lights. I do have a couple, however, they are LED and very low-powered in comparison with the studio flash so I doubt the light will show up.
2. Video lights in reflectors with honeycombs. While much brighter than the stage lights, they still put out much less power than the flash.
4. Godox AD200 / 860 / V1 mounted to reflectors with honeycombs. Much more power, but I remember getting them into slave mode to sync with the studio heads was a headache last time I tried to combine them.
3. Inspired by a youtube video, use the studio heads by making a gobo out of cardboard to put on top of a strip softbox, e.g. with several holes, and honeycombs in the holes to focus the light a bit.

The shoot is in a couple of weeks so there is time to experiment a bit.
 
Either option 1 or 2 will be fine as long as you can use a long enough exposure to get the effective power levels where they need to be. If you can't, then you can use Photoflood lamps, which are very old technology and completely horrible, but very useful for this purpose. They are still available. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoflood

The advantage here is that even if you can't use a "long" exposure (if the shot contains say people) you can still manipulate the effective power as needed by using a reasonably long shutter speed, say 1/30th.
 
Many thanks Gary. The subject is a person, they will be posed not moving so longer shutter speed than normal is an option, thanks for the tip!
 
I've always used regular studio flash heads for this Tim - here's various shots of a singer/songwriter, Stacey Lynn that I've shot over the years for her gig posters and other promotional jobs:-
www.flickr.com

Stacey Lynn

Explore this photo album by Owen Lloyd on Flickr!
www.flickr.com www.flickr.com

2 Lencarta SuperFast 600's in the back with barn doors and a fairly loose grid. You don't really see the body of the light, and certainly to non-photographers, they pass for stage lights :) AD200s with a reflector would look very similar. Hold down the C.fn button and use the wheel to move through the custom functions. Change custom function two to "S1" to turn the slave mode on. On the V860 - you need to draw a pentagram, put the flash in the middle, pour on 4cc's of mouse blood, and light 7 black candles. Then mumble some secret words.

Oh ok - it's done like this
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98a-g3dF0tE


But it is *the* most obtuse interface on a flash that I've ever seen and used. Essentially, the flash has to be in regular (on-camera) manual mode for the option to even show up. Then you press the button under "S1/S2" until "S1" shows on the right.

here's a pull-back shot from one of the setups. No fog in this one as we'd gone for a silver drape and warm fairy lights for an out-of-focus backdrop, but the light positions are pretty much the same. pretty sure I just used the modelling lights in the SF600's for this one to live with the exposure from the xmas lights.

_OHL4018-Wallpaper.jpg
 
Thank you Owen! I'll try again with the slave mode, this will give a lot more options if I can get it to work. Next step - lighting design :)
 
Thanks Phil, cheap barn doors is a great idea. I have acquired bits and pieces over the years and that would be a good way to make the lights look the same.

Speaking of bits and pieces, in the studio we have:
- 3 priolite MB/MBX 500 (with trigger)
- 2 elinchrom (pc sync cable)
- various godox, AD600, AD200, 860, V1 (with triggers and receivers)

I doubt I'll need them all, but in case I do - does stacking the godox and priolite triggers and firing the elinchroms with the sync cable Heath Robinson style have any chance to work do you think?
 
Scooter said:
I've always used regular studio flash heads for this Tim - here's various shots of a singer/songwriter, Stacey Lynn that I've shot over the years for her gig posters and other promotional jobs:-
www.flickr.com

Stacey Lynn

Explore this photo album by Owen Lloyd on Flickr!
www.flickr.com www.flickr.com

2 Lencarta SuperFast 600's in the back with barn doors and a fairly loose grid. You don't really see the body of the light, and certainly to non-photographers, they pass for stage lights :) AD200s with a reflector would look very similar. Hold down the C.fn button and use the wheel to move through the custom functions. Change custom function two to "S1" to turn the slave mode on. On the V860 - you need to draw a pentagram, put the flash in the middle, pour on 4cc's of mouse blood, and light 7 black candles. Then mumble some secret words.

Oh ok - it's done like this
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98a-g3dF0tE


But it is *the* most obtuse interface on a flash that I've ever seen and used. Essentially, the flash has to be in regular (on-camera) manual mode for the option to even show up. Then you press the button under "S1/S2" until "S1" shows on the right.

here's a pull-back shot from one of the setups. No fog in this one as we'd gone for a silver drape and warm fairy lights for an out-of-focus backdrop, but the light positions are pretty much the same. pretty sure I just used the modelling lights in the SF600's for this one to live with the exposure from the xmas lights.

View attachment 348396
Click to expand...
This method will work fine, personally though I prefer the continuous light approach simply because it's low-tech and simple, and because it's so easy to vary the effect simply by changing the shutter speed.
 
@Garry Edwards, @Scooter, @Phil V thanks all, much appreciated.

I need to plan the look of the final images then test. Right now I'm thinking of a couple of setups for the lights in the shot:
1. stage lights with slow shutter - nice and easy
2. godox + grids + barndoor to mimic spotlights

With the stage lights, a very slow shutter to capture some motion plus second curtain sync for the fill and key to freeze the subject could be effective too.

Thanks again, I'll share the test results in a week or so if you like to see them.
 
It turns out the stage lights are brighter than I remember. I haven't used them since pre-corona. Here is a quick test at home with 1/125th shutter speed 23mm at F4 (apologies for the dusty table top!). The distance is closer than in the studio, but this is encouraging.

full
 
@juggler and @Garry Edwards how does the fresnel compare with reflectors + honeycomb? I'm trying to figure out if a couple of fresnels would be a useful addition to the studio inventory.
 
TimHughes said:
@juggler and @Garry Edwards how does the fresnel compare with reflectors + honeycomb? I'm trying to figure out if a couple of fresnels would be a useful addition to the studio inventory.
Click to expand...
I'm sure Garry will give chapter and verse.. but my Fresnels give results rather similar to a (gridded) silver beauty dish.

I doubt Fresnels would be a really useful addition unless you go for something much larger.
 
I use a small Fresnel attachment to generate balls of light on a Translum screen for tabletop/product shots. When spotted up it produces a more gradual fall off than a grid (which tends to have a flatter central hotspot and then fall off towards the edge). If you dial the Fresnel out towards the flood end and move it closer to the screen to keep the ball of light roughly the same size, it starts to resemble the light pattern from a grid more. As Simon said though, most mountable Fresnel attachments, including the cheap Neewer branded one I use, are too small, and sit too far forward of the flashtube/LED. This means it can't really achieve a full flood setting as the tube doesn't get close enough to the lens. I also had to put a circular piece of diffusion inside mine when using it with a flash head, as without this, it produces a fairly defined image of the flash tube on the screen.

Here's an example BTS video but with an older (bit similarly sized) Aputure Fresnel attachment - aimed at the back of a frosted acrylic panel. I don't use this one any more as I got fed up of masking off all the holes in the side of it... The softbox behind it is to fill the dark end up a bit on the screen so it doesn't fall off to complete darkness.
View: https://www.instagram.com/p/CB6RalXg4cA/
 
Scooter said:
I use a small Fresnel attachment to generate balls of light on a Translum screen for tabletop/product shots. When spotted up it produces a more gradual fall off than a grid (which tends to have a flatter central hotspot and then fall off towards the edge).
Click to expand...

I like speedlites in Pringles tubes for that look - the silver inside gives a nice falloff and can be modified by inserting pieces of black craft foam.

Scooter said:
If you dial the Fresnel out towards the flood end and move it closer to the screen to keep the ball of light roughly the same size, it starts to resemble the light pattern from a grid more. As Simon said though, most mountable Fresnel attachments, including the cheap Neewer branded one I use, are too small, and sit too far forward of the flashtube/LED. This means it can't really achieve a full flood setting as the tube doesn't get close enough to the lens. I also had to put a circular piece of diffusion inside mine when using it with a flash head, as without this, it produces a fairly defined image of the flash tube on the screen.
Click to expand...

Similarly, I clamp a piece of 1/2 Tough Spun to the barn doors. I find the that I sometimes get quite defined shadow rings from the lens otherwise.
Scooter said:
Here's an example BTS video but with an older (bit similarly sized) Aputure Fresnel attachment - aimed at the back of a frosted acrylic panel. I don't use this one any more as I got fed up of masking off all the holes in the side of it... The softbox behind it is to fill the dark end up a bit on the screen so it doesn't fall off to complete darkness.
View: https://www.instagram.com/p/CB6RalXg4cA/
Click to expand...
 
An interesting discussion:)
My take on this is that a good fresnel spot produces a very different effect from a honeycomb (or a grid, as those who have been corrupted by the American version of English like to call it). But the small ones that I've personally tested are pretty useless. The one that Lencarta had, a lot of years ago now, measured 9" and was pretty decent but I tried out the Bowens version, which was only slightly smaller at 8" and that was nowhere near as good.

Going back much further, I used to use a Bron one, not an attachment, this one had a built-in flash, and was 14". It was physically massive, weighed a ton and, being Bron, cost an unbelievable amount of money. It was used primarily for classical beauty portraits in the style of the 1920s Hollywood portraits where the photographers used the even larger filmset equipment. It was both a fresnel spot and a focussing spot. This old photo, taken at the Light Painters studio in Kuala Lumpur, is an example.
01.jpg
Coming back to honeycombs, I still have my old 3 degree one, which I bought when I worked in an advertising studio in Manhatten. The last time I checked, a few years ago, they were still theoretically available on a USA website, for 800 USD but were permanently out of stock. There's nothing even remotely like it available today, Elinchrom used to do an 8 degree model and the best that we seem to be able to get now is 10 degrees. I'm guessing that if I was to sell it then it would go for a few hundred £.

But, the simple fact of the matter is that there has been a sharp decline in the standard of lighting generally. That, and the ability to do a lot of special effects in post-processing, has pretty much killed the market for these specialist tools.
 
Thank you @Scooter, @juggler and @Garry Edwards, great example bts and image too.

I'm tempted to add one fresnel:
1. 2 x sets of stage lights
2. 4 x fake spotlights using flash + grids + barndoor
3. 1 fresnel for key light

Looking at the cheaper end of fresnels, the Aperture 2x model looks ok to work with continuous lights or AD200. Any views on that one? There is a cheaper Jinbei one and I don't many reviews, the one rating I found was not good.
 
TimHughes said:
Thank you @Scooter, @juggler and @Garry Edwards, great example bts and image too.

I'm tempted to add one fresnel:
1. 2 x sets of stage lights
2. 4 x fake spotlights using flash + grids + barndoor
3. 1 fresnel for key light

Looking at the cheaper end of fresnels, the Aperture 2x model looks ok to work with continuous lights or AD200. Any views on that one? There is a cheaper Jinbei one and I don't many reviews, the one rating I found was not good.
Click to expand...
I doubt whether you'll be happy with the Aperture one, at just 6" diameter, and the Jinbei one seems to be just 4.5" (possibly the full diameter, with the lens a bit smaller). With some things in life, size really does matter:)
 
TimHughes said:
I expect you're right, scratch that idea. This review compares honeycombs with the aperture fresnel
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INZEaGuCdJY
Click to expand...
If you want to produce a sharply defined circle of light (ie what most people would expect to see on a stage floor if you used the term "spotlight" ) then you'll need a light with some form of focusing system that can take a "GoBO" (GOes Before Optics). You could use an actual stage spot light like this Source 4 Profile https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115323080621?hash=item1ad9ca8fad:g:6MAAAOSwM7NiRzaN (quite tempted to bid on that myself tbh)

Or, there are now a plethora of generic mountable focusing attachments for flash and LED heads (and some that people have written their names on and claimed to have somehow designed or invented). I used a generic projection attachment like this one https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203880668677 with a simple circle GoBO in it, on a Lencarta 600SF head to make this picture:-
https://flic.kr/p/2n1skn4
View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/owenlloyd/51857322721/in/dateposted-public/


I also have one of these larger ones https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222971012015 The optics in it are crude, with a bit of chromatic separation going on, and you won't get a tack sharp image of the GoBO out of this one at the edges, but it does collect and transmit more of the input light, and it's good enough to make a "spotlight" circle. They're also dirt cheap.
 
Scooter said:
I also have one of these larger ones https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222971012015 The optics in it are crude, with a bit of chromatic separation going on, and you won't get a tack sharp image of the GoBO out of this one at the edges, but it does collect and transmit more of the input light, and it's good enough to make a "spotlight" circle. They're also dirt cheap.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's one that's been around a long time and is effective, if you can live with the chromatic aberration. It does however also project and magnify every spot of dust, because of its design. Reminds me of the old condenser enlargers, which worked on the same optical principle.

Many years ago I had an Elinchrom focussing spot attachment, which was highly effective. I used the GoBO attachments quite a lot, and it also had 4 shutters that I used to mask the shape of the light as necessary - usually to light wine bottle labels. The downside was that they ate a lot of light, I normally had to fit at least a 2400 Ws flash to it, sometimes a 6000 Ws one, although that problem has pretty much gone away with today's digital cameras. I still have that attachment, somewhere.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Yes, that's one that's been around a long time and is effective, if you can live with the chromatic aberration. It does however also project and magnify every spot of dust, because of its design. Reminds me of the old condenser enlargers, which worked on the same optical principle.

Many years ago I had an Elinchrom focussing spot attachment, which was highly effective. I used the GoBO attachments quite a lot, and it also had 4 shutters that I used to mask the shape of the light as necessary - usually to light wine bottle labels. The downside was that they ate a lot of light, I normally had to fit at least a 2400 Ws flash to it, sometimes a 6000 Ws one, although that problem has pretty much gone away with today's digital cameras. I still have that attachment, somewhere.
Click to expand...

They do eat an insane amount of light don't they? Especially with an open flash tube. The most efficient combination I have is an AD200 (with the forward throwing Fresnel head on it) and a Lightblaster, with a Yongnuo 50mm f/1.8 lens on the front. Still very little of it makes it into the rear element of the lens.
 
My friend has offered to loan me his old "Bowens MonoSpot" looks like it's from about 1980 maybe this can do the job. Does anyone remember that one?
 
I remember an old Bowens focussing spot - not an attachment - that plugged into their generator pack.
 
Interesting, I've never seen one of those.
Just one stop of power adjustment?
 
Garry Edwards said:
Interesting, I've never seen one of those.
Just one stop of power adjustment?
Click to expand...
I'm not entirely sure. There is no manual with it. There are two switches that control flash power, so it could be 4 stops variation?

The circle is not perfect but should be good enough for what I need:
full


Any idea if a clean up inside and checking alignment would sharpen it up?
 
TimHughes said:
I'm not entirely sure. There is no manual with it. There are two switches that control flash power, so it could be 4 stops variation?

The circle is not perfect but should be good enough for what I need:
full


Any idea if a clean up inside and checking alignment would sharpen it up?
Click to expand...
Time will tell, but my guess is that the two switches are for the modelling lamp and for the flash, with each being a 50% power reduction. That's how the old Bowens flashes worked. People have nostalgic memories of them, but they were always pretty basic.

I think the results should be fine, I doubt whether cleaning it up will be either needed or effective.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Time will tell, but my guess is that the two switches are for the modelling lamp and for the flash, with each being a 50% power reduction. That's how the old Bowens flashes worked. People have nostalgic memories of them, but they were always pretty basic.

I think the results should be fine, I doubt whether cleaning it up will be either needed or effective.
Click to expand...
thanks Garry
 
Update:

- the Bowens monospot works great....but decided against using it as the studio ceiling height is a bit too low
- went for all flash to have the extra power compared with video lights to properly freeze the action
- slave mode didn't work for some lighting positions as there was enough light for the photocells
- final setup was all godox plus one priolite in slave mode, the "stage lights" were AD200s and speedlights inside honeycombed and gelled reflectors.

A couple of other things that worked out well to give the "stage" feel:
- thin transparent polycarbonate sheets over the black paper on the floor to make the floor reflective (no double reflections)
- using our portable black backdrops to create sides and cover the white ceiling
 
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