The demise of the 'asset'

So many replies, I like a good conversation on this forum.

It is true that almost all things should be bought with the expectation that sooner or later, their value in actual money terms will be less, sometimes much less, than the original price, even taking inflation into account, but as Terry says above, there is residual value in almost all things. Motorbikes are a case in point. one might pay thousands for a new one and the price will drop and drop over the years but, unless there is irreparable damage to the frame, they will always have value as they are like a more complicated version of the broom -- had the same one for twenty years only ever changed the head or the handle. Motorbikes will sell forever while there is fuel to run them.

The problem with modern photographic gear though is the complexity. If something goes wrong there is every chance that it might be impossible to repair therefore any residual value is totally lost, I sense this is less of a problem the older and more mechanical the camera is (although a repair may be possible but still uneconomical).

It is a fact of life that things get older and are worth less I suppose. It's a bit like me, when I was working I was worth far more dead than alive with various insurances, job protection, earning potential etc. but now I'm retired I have my pensions and am now worth far more alive than I am dead (where, apart from a potential source of fertiliser, I would be utterly worthless) so I do have some residual value, at least for now; I'm starting to envy the simple broom though :)
Excellent point about the residual value of modern cameras. It is a great misfortune that electronic parts are so ephemeral. Spare parts often cease to be available almost as soon as the production run finishes. The only possibility for repair then become one of cannibalisation. It is not surprising that their second hand value falls so quickly.
 
I'm just guessing but I assume that parts have to be available for a certain length of time after the product run ends. I used to do product approvals, CE, and this was a requirement but I have no idea if it's the same for photographic equipment but I'd guess that there is a required time period. I'd be interested to know what that length of time is if it does indeed exist, if anyone knows.
 
I've just checked and as far as UK law is concerned, manufacturers are not legally obliged to sell/supply parts beyond whatever the company itself decides, apparently.
 
If you want real returns, you need to play the stockmarket.
A good friend of mine is a DBA in the financial industry. Just before the "crash" (2010?) he was advised to buy gold. He invested £35k in bullion, and after the crash, sold it for 4x the value. Gold rarely loses you money unless you wear it.
 
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I've just checked and as far as UK law is concerned, manufacturers are not legally obliged to sell/supply parts beyond whatever the company itself decides, apparently.
Since July 2021, Manufacturers are required to supply spare parts for at least 10 years: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57665593

This is post brexit legislation, so wouldn't be affected even if the bonfire of EU derived laws happened.
 
A good friend of mine is a DBA in the financial industry. Just before the "crash" (2010?) he was advised to buy cold. He invested £35k in bullion, and after the crash, sold it for 4x the value. Gold rarely loses you money unless you wear it.
Gold over time is only ever a hedge against inflation. This is true back to the Roman times.

As the saying goes, gold doesn’t have babies.
 
A good friend of mine is a DBA in the financial industry. Just before the "crash" (2010?) he was advised to buy gold. He invested £35k in bullion, and after the crash, sold it for 4x the value. Gold rarely loses you money unless you wear it.

Yes, it is a good long term investment - but it doesn't yield a dividend/income.

I tend to prefer a portfolio of equities/collective investments that pay dividends with some of the funds tied up in precious metals but by no means all.
 
Interesting thread as already said electronic gear will normally depreciate as new models come out
I see cameras as tools, I do look after them but never expect them to be an investment
It’s the memories that you capture with them that’s important,
I still treasure shots that I took with my Canon 350D a long time ago, the Camera is worthless pretty much but the images of family that I took are precious
That camera still works perfectly too
 
Just regarding modern camera kit being out of date in a year or two. I don't see this at all. I think out of date is the wrong term as the kit can still work and do everything the user wants. My A7 didn't stop working when the A1 came out and whilst the A1 can do things that the A7 can't the A7 still does everything it did on the day I bought it.

Totally! I always have the oldest camera at the various events and workshops I do.
When I bought another back up body recently I seriously considered an upgrade. Ended up getting another second hand D750. Eye-detect AF might sway me eventually - but not just yet.
 
Just regarding modern camera kit being out of date in a year or two. I don't see this at all. I think out of date is the wrong term as the kit can still work and do everything the user wants. My A7 didn't stop working when the A1 came out and whilst the A1 can do things that the A7 can't the A7 still does everything it did on the day I bought it.

We call it FOMO and FOMO leads to GAS. I admit to suffering terribly with it
 
I've just checked and as far as UK law is concerned, manufacturers are not legally obliged to sell/supply parts beyond whatever the company itself decides, apparently.

I find this difficult to believe but I've been out of this for 12 years now and I never did cameras. Got a source for this?

When I did this most of the products I was involved in had to be supported for 10 years after production ended. I was more on the periphery of other products (like cars) as I was involved with the suppliers not the car manufacturer directly but I'm pretty sure cars had to be supported for longer, at that time. The products I was most involved in with the manufacturer directly were light industrial or commercial products rather than consumer ones and weren't targeted at the general public. I never actually asked how much the cheapest product sold for but it can't have been more than... at a guess the low £100 or so or maybe just double digits with the most expensive going from £70k and up. Nowadays I believe there's a right to repair law, or words to that effect, and that may or may not affect camera kit. Consumer appliance are I believe covered by similar requirements with in some cases reduced timeframes, maybe 7 years but I'm not sure what products come under this.

I'd guess that cameras come under electronic equipment for CE purposes and perhaps have to comply with Low Voltage, EMC, RoHS and all the rest along that environmental line. I do appreciate that camera kit probably isn't expected to last long, a ten year old modern digital camera may be an exception, and the support period may therefore be shorter but it's hard for me to believe that the manufacturers don't have any responsibility under law to support repair beyond what they themselves decide. There may be loopholes though. When RoHS and WEEE first came in some manufacturers used all this an an excuse to drop stuff that wasn't worth the hassle. I'd be amazed if people weren't doing similar things now to get out of supporting out of production kit.

PS.
I forgot the guarantee. I find it difficult to believe that if I buy a camera today and accepting that production could have already ceased the manufacturer can decide not to repair within the guarantee period just because they've made a unilateral decision not to. So, I suppose we can deduce from that that manufacturers will need to support out of production kit for at least some time but what that time is will depend on the requirements that product falls under and if not its guarantee.
 
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Totally! I always have the oldest camera at the various events and workshops I do.
When I bought another back up body recently I seriously considered an upgrade. Ended up getting another second hand D750. Eye-detect AF might sway me eventually - but not just yet.

I don't want to tempt you too much but eye or even "just" face detection combined with being able to focus accurately and consistently anywhere in the frame (rather than in the central area where DSLR AF points tend to be) is a revelation and allows greater compositional freedom without the need to focus using a more central area focus point and crop to get the composition you want later.

And of course newer cameras recognise various animal face/eye too, not just humans.
 
My Fuji X-T2s are from 2016 and my Fuji GFX 50s from 2017 I am still happy with both setups. My Leica M9s are from 2009 and I love those. My most "modern" film camera is my MP from 2003 and I still have one of my Canon F1ns from the 1980s. When I but camera gear I don't consider how much I might get for it if I sold it I just use it until I feel a need to upgrade or replace then take what I can get for the old stuff, anything is a bonus since it will likely be old and potentially a bit battered.
 
I don't want to tempt you too much but eye or even "just" face detection combined with being able to focus accurately and consistently anywhere in the frame (rather than in the central area where DSLR AF points tend to be) is a revelation and allows greater compositional freedom without the need to focus using a more central area focus point and crop to get the composition you want later.
My DSLRs have face detect through the viewfinder. ;)

They also have eye detect in liveview which it does seem like magic! :D

I rarely use either feature!
 
My DSLRs have face detect through the viewfinder. ;)

They also have eye detect in liveview which it does seem like magic! :D

I rarely use either feature!

I didn't know that was possible! :D I've just googled to a vid and a review at DPR stating this uses the metering sensor but this looks slow even compared to my old original A7. But if it works for you :D
 
I didn't know that was possible! :D I've just googled to a vid and a review at DPR stating this uses the metering sensor but this looks slow even compared to my old original A7. But if it works for you :D
I didn't know it was possible until I changed cameras and read the manual! :LOL:

It works well enough for me when I do use it.
 
I don't want to tempt you too much but eye or even "just" face detection combined with being able to focus accurately and consistently anywhere in the frame (rather than in the central area where DSLR AF points tend to be) is a revelation and allows greater compositional freedom without the need to focus using a more central area focus point and crop to get the composition you want later.

And of course newer cameras recognise various animal face/eye too, not just humans.

This is one of my concerns about getting a D810 or D850 after being spoilt with the Sony A9's eye AF. But I try to remember that I managed just fine with the D3 and D750, so perhaps I should not worry so much.
 
This is one of my concerns about getting a D810 or D850 after being spoilt with the Sony A9's eye AF. But I try to remember that I managed just fine with the D3 and D750, so perhaps I should not worry so much.

I honestly can't remember how many AF points my SLR had or my Canon DSLR's but it's fair to say not many and the ones that existed where around the central area. I do remember relying on DoF and small prints a lot with my SLR and cropping Canon DSLR shots for the composition I wanted. Mirrorless allows accurate and consistent focus anywhere in the frame and I'd want that to be available in any new kit I buy now that I've got used to it and to not having to compose for what the camera can do and crop for composition later.
 
Interesting conversation.
Cars: everybody seems to be leasing (renting) cars now, so it's really difficult to get a purchase price for a car from a dealership salesman, they only talk about monthlies. I honestly believe this is a big part of the reason that actual car prices (new) have gone up a lot - they have just multiplied the monthlies instead of having a starting price to base everything on. The rise on online car purchasing is also partly to blame - no haggling with a shiny-suited salesman any more.
Houses: the rent vs buy argument is really one around utility and freedom vs security; I always wanted to buy my home to ensure I could put a roof over my head in retirement, as I never banked on savings, pensions and investments being sufficient to pay index-linked rentals to the end of my life.
Stuff: I always depreciate the valuation of any of my stuff by the value of the use I have had out of it. Consequently a camera I have for 10 years will certainly have given up its value to me, so anything I might get for selling it is a bonus.
 
Interesting conversation.
Cars: everybody seems to be leasing (renting) cars now, so it's really difficult to get a purchase price for a car from a dealership salesman, they only talk about monthlies. I honestly believe this is a big part of the reason that actual car prices (new) have gone up a lot - they have just multiplied the monthlies instead of having a starting price to base everything on. The rise on online car purchasing is also partly to blame - no haggling with a shiny-suited salesman any more.
Houses: the rent vs buy argument is really one around utility and freedom vs security; I always wanted to buy my home to ensure I could put a roof over my head in retirement, as I never banked on savings, pensions and investments being sufficient to pay index-linked rentals to the end of my life.
Stuff: I always depreciate the valuation of any of my stuff by the value of the use I have had out of it. Consequently a camera I have for 10 years will certainly have given up its value to me, so anything I might get for selling it is a bonus.

There's ways to get a discount on a new car. Unusually involves taking the finance then settling it later.

I quiet like drivethedeal.com - and the saving over RRP can often be significant. Much like buying a grey import, except it's not a grey import - just a broker getting you a big discount.

Used, and new car prices, are absolutely insane tbh. I couldn't afford my car now if that makes sense.
 
There's ways to get a discount on a new car. Unusually involves taking the finance then settling it later.

I quiet like drivethedeal.com - and the saving over RRP can often be significant. Much like buying a grey import, except it's not a grey import - just a broker getting you a big discount.

Used, and new car prices, are absolutely insane tbh. I couldn't afford my car now if that makes sense.

One discussion taking place on a car forum is about car salesmen at the more prestige end being pretty disinterested in walk in customers to the point of ignoring people and not even returning calls as they can sell basically without getting out of their comfy chair and office or otherwise getting getting close to bothering. BMW and Land Rover being singled out for this. I have to say that I've encountered this with Audi and VW and just walked away to the competition.
 
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I experienced that with Jag/LR, Mercedes and another I can't recall. Whereas Mazda keep trying to persuade me to trade in my car to get their newest hybrid SUV, which I don't want.
 
Cars: everybody seems to be leasing (renting) cars now, so it's really difficult to get a purchase price for a car from a dealership salesman, they only talk about monthlies.
I leased cars while running the business and that turned out to be a good deal. When I retired, I wanted an outright purchase, knowing my mileage would be far lower than when I was working.

A colleague gave me some excellent advice: "Ask what demonstrators they're ready to turn over", He had worked in a dealership, so had the inside track. He told me that most. if not all, dealerships keep their demonstrators in mint condition and even at 10,000 miles they'll be nearly factory fresh. I followed his advice and got a top of the line model for two thirds of retail, with 9,000 on the clock. I've been running it very happily for nearly ten years, so that trick worked for me. ;)
 
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And then on another site one finds this: No requirement for spare parts although this is a website last updated in 2016.

Ah I see. I may be wrong but that site seems to initially at least set out to talk about "white goods" which are normally washing machines, fridges and the like and these seem to be AFAIK specifically covered by this new right to repair thingy which may indeed have come in after that site was last updated and then we get into the issue of warranties which even on some white goods can be two years with some components guaranteed for up to 10 years.

So I could be wrong but that site may have to be taken with a pinch of salt but anyway this is almost certainly not camera gear which will likely I guess come under electronic equipment rather than "white goods." But in all this I could be wrong :D as I forgot most of this the second I walked out of the door :D
 
I experienced that with Jag/LR, Mercedes and another I can't recall. Whereas Mazda keep trying to persuade me to trade in my car to get their newest hybrid SUV, which I don't want.


I'm a scruffy oik (as I'm sure Chris Cobra will attest!) and when I was after my previous car, I was fairly open to suggestion so went to the local MB dealer to see what they had on offer. I was completely ignored so I went across the road to the Jaguar showroom where I was immediately offered a cuppa and any help if I needed it.

I'm not as scruffy as the "oik" who wandered in to H R Owen in the '60s and was told to leave the premises by salesman #1, only to be welcomed with open arms with a "Hello, Mr Jagger, how can I help you today?" from salesman #2.
 
And then on another site one finds this: No requirement for spare parts although this is a website last updated in 2016.
Just shows how important it is to check the post date on a page. A lot can change in five years.

I've dropped them a link to the BBC page and we'll see if they update their information... :naughty:
 
One discussion taking place on a car forum is about car salesmen at the more prestige end being pretty disinterested in walk in customers to the point of ignoring people and not even returning calls as they can sell basically without getting out of their comfy chair and office or otherwise getting getting close to bothering. BMW and Land Rover being singled out for this. I have to say that I've encountered this with Audi and VW and just walked away to the competition.
I had a terrible encounter at Audi - was planning on upgrading and had a meeting booked with the sales man. I arrived, a little early but waited for the appointment time and the sales man never bothered to come over - he knew I was there. It was very weird.

I now have a BMW
 
One discussion taking place on a car forum is about car salesmen at the more prestige end being pretty disinterested in walk in customers to the point of ignoring people and not even returning calls as they can sell basically without getting out of their comfy chair and office or otherwise getting getting close to bothering. BMW and Land Rover being singled out for this. I have to say that I've encountered this with Audi and VW and just walked away to the competition.

I was actually ordered out a Mercedes dealer when I was asking to see a used C class estate. The guy told me, have you found one online, I said no, I just wanting to see a car, get a feel if I wanted one, I turned up in an E Class saloon. He said, go away, come back when you've found one on our website and you can see that specific car.

I did in the end buy a C class estate, but from an independent specialist family owned and run retailer in Nuneaton called "Mercland".
 
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@SFTPhotography That was very similar to my last experience of an MB dealer, I was looking for similar but arrived in a 4 year old Discovery. I left and kept the Disco a bit longer.
 
The MB dealer here used to be a family firm. Back then, a mate dropped his car in for a (booked) service and they hadn't kept a courtesy car for him. The boss pulled the keys to his 500SL out of his pocket and brought them over. Now it's MBUK, Exeter branch and service has dropped through the floor.
 
My last Disco went last summer, not being used enough to justify cost of ownership. I just have the Mazda 6 tourer now which is much more appropriate to my use. I do lust after an Ineos Grenadier though...
 
There are always plenty of people who are prepared to pay a premium price for the latest model of anything, good for them.

My own solution is simple - buy secondhand and let the first owner bear the brunt of the depreciation, I still have a product that will work perfectly for years.
Of recent times I have bought cameras from Fuji refurbished, where you get an as new product with a full guarantee but a very good discount. like mint secondhand but no risk.
 
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I had a terrible encounter at Audi - was planning on upgrading and had a meeting booked with the sales man. I arrived, a little early but waited for the appointment time and the sales man never bothered to come over - he knew I was there. It was very weird.

I now have a BMW

Local Audi Main Dealer here is Braehead and I hate the place. I only use it when I get OEM parts, which is thankfully rare. There are always far more staff than customers, yet you can just stand there being ignored. Car salesmen all seem to have the same look/walk/demeanour.
 
Local Audi Main Dealer here is Braehead and I hate the place. I only use it when I get OEM parts, which is thankfully rare. There are always far more staff than customers, yet you can just stand there being ignored. Car salesmen all seem to have the same look/walk/demeanour.
When I was young, I was told never to trust estate agents, lawyers and car salesmen, think the world hasn't got better, could add a good couple more to that now :)

I started my working life in the motor trade, and have only bought two new vehicles in my life, a Suzuki Katana, and a Vauxhall Za fire a , both acquired at least 33% off.

I think that has stayed with me for cameras and other things, so I am lucky not to have made major losses an anything, good used is far better value for money.
 
Local Audi Main Dealer here is Braehead and I hate the place. I only use it when I get OEM parts, which is thankfully rare. There are always far more staff than customers, yet you can just stand there being ignored. Car salesmen all seem to have the same look/walk/demeanour.

I nearly bought an S6 from there years ago. I didn't like them. Ironically they are owned by lookers group, who have Taggarts Volvo on the other side of the "8" and they're very helpful.

I drive a Kia now. Finances are not what they were.
 
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