The Formula 1 / IndyCar Thread

Regarding the BLM thing; personally, I feel that LH is exploiting it to enhance his 'brand'. With the staged publicity event of the taking of the knee thing before the latest GP, I noticed every other driver was wearing a 'End Racism' t-shirt, yet Hamilton wore a 'Black Lives Matter' one. Presumably so he'd stand out more than the others. I don't think it wasn't deliberate. LH won't be the only person to exploit such a political movement to enhance their own image. Whilst he does sometimes have something important to say about issues such as racism (I was glad to see he slagged of that nasty **** Bernie Ecclestone for his racist comments, although I don't think LH went far enough)), he's hardly MLK. And I couldn't help noticing the massive, embarrassing irony of LH being happy at being paid to race in countries with appalling Human Rights records, such as Bahrain, Malaysia, China, USA etc. But LH's actions will create some media publicity, and it will help spread the message, so ultimately I spose it's positive. As for those drivers not taking the knee; people shouldn't feel forced to do so, if they don't want to. Doesn't make them a 'racist' or anything. I never bothered clapping for the NHS, I thought it was cringeworthy and in many cases, deeply hypocritical. Doesn't mean I don't support the NHS. I just think that individuals need to do a lot more than populist virtue signalling.


fuzzyedges said:
Politics have there place and it shouldn't be in sport
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Ricardodaforce said:
Does not mean politics should be discussed in this thread.
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Why not? Politics affects our daily lives. When is it then 'appropriate' to discuss politics? And who gets to define that? So you think Colin Kaepernick shouldn't have ever taken the knee? Nah- I'm all for politics in sports. What a great platform to share ideas and messages. I'm quite impressed with how certain footballers have raised the issue of racism in the game, recently, and how the Premier Leagues has carried the 'Black Lives Matter' slogan on ALL shirts in every game played so far. Credit to the game, that. About f*****g time as well.

As for politics in F1; it's a sport mired in multiple terrible issues, from the aforementioned Human Rights abuses in certain participating countries, through all manner of money laundering/dodgy sponsors type shenanigans, to the obvious environmental issues. I've followed F1 for near on 35 years, and have drifted away because those issues just aren't being addressed properly. I feel that Formula E is a far better direction for motorsport to go in.
 
Back to actual motor racing; it's great news that Alonso will be returning, the sport has been worse off without him. One of the best drivers ever, no question. A driver who took on Schumacher at his peak, and beat him, in arguably an inferior car. A driver who could drag a Lada to a podium place. His performances in that terrible McLaren recently, were far better than most people even considered. He'd drag it up to 7th, when his team mate could barely drag it home. He was the only driver getting anywhere near Vettel during that legendary Red Bull run.

IMO, there were 3 drivers who were just better than the rest; Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton. See their performances against team mates; Alonso was always rightly number one (had Ron Dennis backed Alonso in 2007, instead of focusing his attentions on his protege, LH, Alonso would easily have won that year's DWC. RD's ego led to Kimi Raikkonen winning instead. Yes, LH was good, but still had lots to learn, and establishing a team hierarchy (as Alonso had specified in his contract) would have yielded a better outcome for the team. And keeping Alonso on would have been a lot better for the team in the long run; LH is fantastic in a great car, but lacks Alonso's inate ability to improve a substandard car. Hence McLaren went backwards following LH's 2008 WC win. LH was outscored and often outdriven, by Jenson Button, during their 3 years together. Has Alonso ever been outscored by a team mate, during his career? I don't think so. Remember; he was always way ahead of Fisichella, Barrichelo, Massa and Raikkonen. And anyone else he's been paired with, bar LH. LH has been outscored by a team mate, twice. And he isn't the car developer Alonso is; he's always been lucky to have the best cars, the McLaren slump and early Mercedes periods apart. He's never really shone in an underperforming/inferior car in the way Alonso and Vettel have. That's the mark of a true great. To win in an inferior car.

Vettel is a strange fish; undoubtedly a great driver, but clearly subject to issues that interfere with his focus. It's clear Ferrari just haven't been any good in the last what, 10 years at least, in spite of having two top drivers. I think that demotivates Vettel; he's clearly not the same driver that won with the Torro Rosso in Monza all those years ago. But he routinely made Mark Webber look very ordinary, and Webber had made Coulthard look ordinary, let's face it. So where's that talent gone? Seems to have left him and entered LeClerc. We won't see much from Vettel this year or next, as the Ferrari is another dog. And he's leaving anyway. But with rule changes in 2022, and Alonso back, new cars, a new challenge, it could be game on once more. Cos let's face it; F1 is more boring now than it's ever been before. Something needs to happen to spice it up once more.
 
Simplify the aero crap and let’s get overtaking back, might need to modify some circuits, they are race cars, let’s go fast and race each other all out, fastest man/car combo wins.
 
Not sure there's much point in a whole new post for the next race as all the info is the same (pretty much)

2020 Formula 1 Pirelli Grosser Preis Der Steiermark


Championship standings
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I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw Wehrlein or Giovinazzi replace Vettel for the rest of the season after this weekend.
 
So what are the predictions for Austria 2 ?

Can I suggest we drop the BLM politics from thread title? Its done, unless some major incident next week.
 
Let’s not forget that there are two IndyCar races at Road America this weekend.
 
Cockney said:
So what are the predictions for Austria 2 ?

Can I suggest we drop the BLM politics from thread title? Its done, unless some major incident next week.
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HAM
VER
BOT
 
Predictions
If we rule out Ferrari as a spent force and all the also runs, that leaves Mercedes and Red Bull
Leaving out the dabbling of the racing gods I would suggest
Bot
Ham
Ver
But albon could ruin someones party
 
Personally I think Renault need their marbles testing!

Never evr been an Alonso fan; he has always been at the top of the 'average' F1 driver list for me and was only able to win world championships in cars that were probably not legal. (Beneton & Briatore were extremely well known for cheating in the padock; something Schumacher embraced and has always 'clouded' his greatness IMO)

Hamilton as a young driver knocked Alonso into a cocked hat when they were together at McLaren; this is a duel Alonso should have easilly won but didn't - as a result Hamilton has gone on to become won of the best the sport has seen.

Ricardo will do well for McLaren; I hope Lando will stay but unlikely as he is a talent.

Good to see Mclaren returning towards the front after years of mis-direction & to much faith/control in/from Alonso.

Ferrari were obviously cheating with engine power last year looking at their straightline speed; Ferrari should be unbeatable with their budget but as Coulthard says there is obviously something not working within the team and I don't think it's just Vettel.
 
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Well, that shows who's got real talent!
 
Nod said:
Well, that shows who's got real talent!
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Very exciting! Not for the faint hearted!

Sets up nicely for tomorrow. (y)
 
RWDW said:
Never evr been an Alonso fan
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Clearly. Hence the rubbish you typed out after that.

Hamilton was excellent in his rookie year, no question. But RD clearly favoured him, and the far more experienced Alonso, who believed he'd been brought in as number 1 driver, suddenly and inexplicably found his car slower than Hamilton's. This wasn't down to Hamilton's talent. Alonso had been brought in to develop the car, so that RD could then launch his protege. Had McLaren actually employed a proper lead driver strategy that season, they'd have had the DWC in the bag. Instead, it was Raikkonen who sneaked it, in an inferior car. Hamilt9n then had the luxury of having a car that Alonso had developed, for 2008. Then what? Red Bull and Vettel wiped the floor with Hamilton and McLaren. Hamilton has only enjoyed success because he's had the luck to be in the best car. Alonso won two DWCs against Schumacher, in an inferior car. Ferrari, on the other hand, have been a failure since Shumacher left.

Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton are in a more or less equal level imo. Alonso is the master at developing a car and making it faster/better. Vettel too, and has proved he can win in an inferior car. Hamilton is fast as, yet struggled in a less than perfect car, but has been extremely lucky. But for me, Alonso is the better all round racing driver. End of.
 
Another dominant win for Scott Dixon, surely one of the best drivers not to race in F1.

There are a few to add to that list; Dario Franchitti and Will Power amongst them.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
Another dominant win for Scott Dixon, surely one of the best drivers not to race in F1.

There are a few to add to that list; Dario Franchitti and Will Power amongst them.
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I stumbled across that race last night whilst channel hopping, glad I did now, thoroughly enjoyed that race and reminded me of why I used to love Indy Car back in the day. I can't wait for today's race.

I agree on your choice of drivers, particularly Dario. I met him at Rockingham in 2002, lovely chap.
 
Dale. said:
I stumbled across that race last night whilst channel hopping, glad I did now, thoroughly enjoyed that race and reminded me of why I used to love Indy Car back in the day. I can't wait for today's race.

I agree on your choice of drivers, particularly Dario. I met him at Rockingham in 2002, lovely chap.
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I went to the CART race at Rockingham the year before.
Those cars made F1 cars look like little toys. Seeing them wheel to wheel whilst doing average lap speeds in excess of 210mph was amazing.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
I went to the CART race at Rockingham the year before.
Those cars made F1 cars look like little toys. Seeing them wheel to wheel whilst doing average lap speeds in excess of 210mph was amazing.
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I was there 2001 also, a few days after 9/11. I think it was the Thursday, 2 Tornado GR4s went over, made me jump out of my skin.

Yeah, the racing in what was then CART, is another level.
 
Dale. said:
I was there 2001 also, a few days after 9/11. I think it was the Thursday, 2 Tornado GR4s went over, made me jump out of my skin.

Yeah, the racing in what was then CART, is another level.
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It was also a week after Alex Zanardi’s awful accident in Germany.
 
Well done Lando :)
 
They were among the most entertaining things on the C4 highlights show (after the attempted breeding of the Ferraris!)
 
AZ6 said:
Yawn.....

Hamilton has only enjoyed success because he's had the luck to be in the best car.
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I'm not sure if you ever actually watched this sport... The best drivers always get the best cars, that's how it works. You show your talent in the field and work your way up. Are you saying that Hamilton can't develop a car? Plus, a car that's good for one driver isn't necessarily great for another.

Does Hamilton get to drive the best cars? Yes
Has he always driven the best car? No
Is he a very talented driver? Damn right he is.....

Schumaker was a very talented driver in a very good car (which wasn't always legal). Nobody says he's not one of the greats.... Wasn't the Mercedes pretty poor in that first year Hamilton was there? He still won races though...
 
AZ6 said:
Clearly. Hence the rubbish you typed out after that.

Hamilton was excellent in his rookie year, no question. But RD clearly favoured him, and the far more experienced Alonso, who believed he'd been brought in as number 1 driver, suddenly and inexplicably found his car slower than Hamilton's. This wasn't down to Hamilton's talent. Alonso had been brought in to develop the car, so that RD could then launch his protege. Had McLaren actually employed a proper lead driver strategy that season, they'd have had the DWC in the bag. Instead, it was Raikkonen who sneaked it, in an inferior car. Hamilt9n then had the luxury of having a car that Alonso had developed, for 2008. Then what? Red Bull and Vettel wiped the floor with Hamilton and McLaren. Hamilton has only enjoyed success because he's had the luck to be in the best car. Alonso won two DWCs against Schumacher, in an inferior car. Ferrari, on the other hand, have been a failure since Shumacher left.

Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton are in a more or less equal level imo. Alonso is the master at developing a car and making it faster/better. Vettel too, and has proved he can win in an inferior car. Hamilton is fast as, yet struggled in a less than perfect car, but has been extremely lucky. But for me, Alonso is the better all round racing driver. End of.
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I don't agree with this.

Alonso's biggest weakness is he can't develop a car - hence Mclaren in the wilderness for so long. and Ferrari not winning when he was with them.

Now look at Mercedes - Hamilton clearly can develop a car.

There is no luck involved in being in the best car; that happens because you build a strong team around you and you give the engineers what they want.
 
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Jelster said:
I'm not sure if you ever actually watched this sport...
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Yes, for about 35 years...


Jelster said:
The best drivers always get the best cars, that's how it works
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Jaques Villeneuve? Damon Hill? Both benefited from having the best car (the Williams had had Ayrton Senna help develop it...). More recently; Jenson Button. Good driver, but not in the same league as other WCs (although he did outpoint Hamilton during their time together, and finished higher in the WC for one of the 3 years, as well as beating Hamilton a few times). Mark Webber would never had been so far up the WC standings in anything other than that superb Red bull car ( he still finished behind Alonso for 3 of the 4 seasons Vettel wasWC though...). Fact is, the best drivers don't always get the best cars. Prost, Senna, Alonso and now Vettel, have all suffered being in inferior cars at some point in their careers. Hamilton being in a Mercedes is luck of the draw.


Jelster said:
Wasn't the Mercedes pretty poor in that first year Hamilton was there? He still won races though...
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He won one race. The following year, there were rule changes which saw the Mercedes suddenly emerge as the best car by a long way. And it's stayed like that since.
Jelster said:
Is he a very talented driver? Damn right he is.....
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Nobody is disputing this. But to dismiss Alonso and Vettel as not being as good as Hamilton, is both naive and ignorant. Sure, the UK press hypes Hamilton up to the max, and is far more disparaging of 'foreign' drivers. That's how it works. Same way as how they always hype up the england footy team at every international tournament, despite the rest of the world clearly being able to see that they haven't really got a hope...
 
RWDW said:
I don't agree with this.
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I respect your right to be wrong.


RWDW said:
Alonso's biggest weakness is he can't develop a car - hence Mclaren in the wilderness for so long
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Where were McLaren when Alonso had left, between 2009 and 2012? Where was Hamilton's ability to develop a car, then? 2 WC drivers, yet McLaren went backwards.

Between 2015-2017, with Alonso was at McLaren, Honda routinely failed to deliver an engine that was suitable or even vaguely competitive. Yet Alonso somehow managed to drag the thing up to positions none of his team-mates (including former WC Jenson Button) could. The switch to Renault failed to deliver the expected performance boost. Yet Alonso still managed some stunning results; 7th in a damaged car, in Baku 2018, was one of the best drives ever seen in the modern era. Ferrari performed much better, results wise, with Alonso, than they have with Vettel, although neigher driver can be blamed for how crap Ferrari have been for so long. Had Hamilton taken a Ferrari seat around 2013, and Vettel switched to Mercedes, we'd now be talking about how incredible 9 or even 10 time WC Sebastian Vettel is. In this modern era of F1, it's all about the car. End of.
 
AZ6 said:
Where were McLaren when Alonso had left, between 2009 and 2012?
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In a huge financial hole because of Alonso's actions.
 
Nod said:
In a huge financial hole because of Alonso's actions.
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Lol! All Alonso's fault. Of course. Nothing to do with McLaren's underhand attempts to gain information on Ferrari's car. Not at all. All because of Fernando. Ok then... :LOL:

I spose 'Liegate' was all Alonso's fault as well, wasn't it?

www.theguardian.com

Formula one: Lewis Hamilton disqualified from Australian grand prix

Lewis Hamilton has been disqualified from the Australian grand prix after McLaren are found to have given 'evidence deliberately misleading to stewards'
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

:LOL: Poor Lewis. The victim of that evil Alonso's treachery, once again...
 
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AZ6 said:
He won one race. The following year, there were rule changes which saw the Mercedes suddenly emerge as the best car by a long way. And it's stayed like that since.
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You mean that year he spent "developing" the car for the following year I guess? He & Mercedes were always saying that they were developing "next years car".

And that wasn't just the rule change was it? Wasn't that the year that Mercedes came up with the idea of "splitting the turbo" ? That wasn't a rule change, that was down to engineering, that's what F1 was (should) be all about.

AZ6 said:
Nobody is disputing this. But to dismiss Alonso and Vettel as not being as good as Hamilton, is both naive and ignorant. Sure, the UK press hypes Hamilton up to the max, and is far more disparaging of 'foreign' drivers.
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I didn't say they weren't as good, (I haven't mentioned them in my post at all) but you seemed to have the opinion that Hamilton isn't worthy of his place or all those world championships. You're allowed that opinion, even if it's wrong, because somebody's perception, is their reality....
 
Disregarding adverse weather and crashes it seems to me that in the same season
A great car with a great driver = wins more than lower podiums
A great car with a very good driver = More lower podiums than wins
A great car with a good driver = some lower podiums maybe a win
A not so good car with a great driver = top ten and occasional podium maybe
A not so good car with a good driver = grid filler
Go through the teams and see if the above is correctish with team mates bound to be an exception
 
AZ6 said:
Yes, for about 35 years...



Jaques Villeneuve? Damon Hill? Both benefited from having the best car (the Williams had had Ayrton Senna help develop it...). More recently; Jenson Button. Good driver, but not in the same league as other WCs (although he did outpoint Hamilton during their time together, and finished higher in the WC for one of the 3 years, as well as beating Hamilton a few times). Mark Webber would never had been so far up the WC standings in anything other than that superb Red bull car ( he still finished behind Alonso for 3 of the 4 seasons Vettel wasWC though...). Fact is, the best drivers don't always get the best cars. Prost, Senna, Alonso and now Vettel, have all suffered being in inferior cars at some point in their careers. Hamilton being in a Mercedes is luck of the draw.



He won one race. The following year, there were rule changes which saw the Mercedes suddenly emerge as the best car by a long way. And it's stayed like that since.

Nobody is disputing this. But to dismiss Alonso and Vettel as not being as good as Hamilton, is both naive and ignorant. Sure, the UK press hypes Hamilton up to the max, and is far more disparaging of 'foreign' drivers. That's how it works. Same way as how they always hype up the england footy team at every international tournament, despite the rest of the world clearly being able to see that they haven't really got a hope...
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I think this is probably the best reply after that very inaccurate post -


Jelster said:
I'm not sure if you ever actually watched this sport...
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(Senna was extremely good but I think you will find he had sod all to do with the development of the Williams car that Hill & Villeneuve drove.........he had only been with Williams for a very short time prior to him being killed).

Look at the great F1 designers and see which drivers they like to work with to find out who is good at developing a car.

No matter what you say - Hamilton is one of THE great drivers; blistering fast over one lap in the dry, blistering fast race pace and in another league in wet conditions. Immense at racing; he is a complete package.

Vettel - used to be blistering fast but never a great racer; always struggled overtaking.

Alonso - moody and has destroyed teams he has worked at; never been able to develop a car hence he finds himself in a car that isn't the best on the grid.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
I went to the CART race at Rockingham the year before.
Those cars made F1 cars look like little toys. Seeing them wheel to wheel whilst doing average lap speeds in excess of 210mph was amazing.
Click to expand...

Sadly Rockingham is no more :-(
 
Jelster said:
And that wasn't just the rule change was it? Wasn't that the year that Mercedes came up with the idea of "splitting the turbo" ? That wasn't a rule change, that was down to engineering, that's what F1 was (should) be all about.
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The thing with the split turbo came about because of the rule changes; from 2.4 V8 NA engines, to 1.6 V6 turbo engines. The 2013 car had totally different design and systems. Hamilton would not have been working on any 'development' of the new car, as that was against the rules. The 2014 rule changes were supposed to level the playing field, as it were. As it happened, it was Mercedes that cracked the code much better than anyone else, so instantly had the best car. Yes, F1 is about the engineering, but it's much more so now, than ever before. Too much so, many would argue.


Jelster said:
you seemed to have the opinion that Hamilton isn't worthy of his place or all those world championships
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Not at all. He is a great driver, and has been lucky to have been driving the best car for the last 6 seasons. But had Vettel, or Alonso, or indeed a few other top drivers, had the Merc seat for that time, they'd have been multiple WCs, not Hamilton. That's just simple fact.


RWDW said:
I think this is probably the best reply after that very inaccurate post -
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Had you bothered to read, you'd realise the stupidity of your comment.


AZ6 said:
Yes, for about 35 years...
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Ahem.



RWDW said:
Vettel - used to be blistering fast but never a great racer; always struggled overtaking.

Alonso - moody and has destroyed teams he has worked at; never been able to develop a car hence he finds himself in a car that isn't the best on the grid.
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Such nonsense. Now, I think it's YOU who doesn't actually watch F1...

Anyway. As I said earlier; I respect your right to be wrong.

This season will turn out to be as processional as the last 6. Roll on 2022!
 
AZ6 said:
Not at all. He is a great driver, and has been lucky to have been driving the best car for the last 6 seasons. But had Vettel, or Alonso, or indeed a few other top drivers, had the Merc seat for that time, they'd have been multiple WCs, not Hamilton. That's just simple fact.
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No it's not, it's your opinion. We will never know will we as it has never happened.

Now, from what I recall, Hamilton was better than his team mate, who went crying to the boss, who in turn gave him most of Hamiltons pit crew, and he still only beat Hamilton to the title because Hamiltons car seemed to develop faults a lot more often.

There isn't a driver currently in F1 who is better. Some are better on the day, but none have his will to win (I think we saw that in his first F1 WC in Brazil).
 
Jelster said:
No it's not, it's your opinion.
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It's pretty bloody obvious that even Lance Stroll could win the DWC in a Mercedes (if he had Karun Chandok as team mate). Ergo, it's fact. Soz, but that's just how it is.

Jelster said:
Now, from what I recall, Hamilton was better than his team mate, who went crying to the boss, who in turn gave him most of Hamiltons pit crew, and he still only beat Hamilton to the title because Hamiltons car seemed to develop faults a lot more often.
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What on earth are you on about now? It's all Marc Gené's fault?

Jelster said:
There isn't a driver currently in F1 who is better
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I wouldn't disagree. But I don't fall for all the Hamilton hype, and know that there are other drivers out there, who are just as good. Hamilton's enjoyed a massive slice of luck to be where is now. In F1, you need talent AND luck. Damon Hill and JV had luck to be in a team that Ayrton Senna had been part of, even if he hadn't been directly involved in the design of the cars they won in. Williams had had lots of success. They were a top team. DH and JV weren't the best drivers in F1 at that time, however. They just had the best cars. Ditto Jenson Button, and to a large extent, Kimi Raikkonen (Alonso wiped the floor with him during their time together at Ferrari; clearly a greater driver by some margin). Two WCs who have been outclassed by team-mates (Alonso has outclassed both!).
 
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