The Merfolk

I'm just wondering how someone who places such high value on sheer craft skill above everything... to the extent that you feel my images do not even belong on the forum... can produce images that suffer from absolutely everything you've been accusing mine of. Can you explain that? I did it intentionally... you clearly didn't.

You haven't actually read my comments, have you?
So personal insults then David? You seem to wish to hide behind them and throwing stuff back at me, and I thought you were a bigger then that too.

Why is that, I'll ask again? Insecurity? Something else?
 
Last edited:
You haven't actually read my comments, have you?
So personal insults then David? You seem to wish to hide behind them and throwing stuff back at me, and I thought you were a bigger then that too.

Why is that, I'll ask again? Insecurity? Something else?



Insults? I'm just saying a great many of the images on your website are snapshots. How can that be an insult? Isn't that the very reason you feel mine are not up to par? Was it your intention to insult me?
 
Last edited:
Insults? I'm just saying a great many of the images on your website are snapshots. How can that be an insult? Isn't that the very reason you feel mine are not up to par? Was it your intention to insult me?


No, my intention was to critique. On a critique forum. Shocker. You seem to be the defensive one? Why?
 
I shouldn't get in between the two of you, but :sleep:

I know, not very articulate and adds nothing to the thread (I've already commented on the photographs).

Unwatches thread.

Cheers.
 
You've already admitted you're here because you find it entertaining, so nothing you're doing is really critique if you're being honest with yourself.. Banging on about it being sub par because they're snapshots is not critique when I've already said a snapshot style was exactly what I wanted for the reportage style shots. It just means you disagree and you don't like snapshot aesthetics.... despite using them yourself.
 
Last edited:
You've already admitted you're here because you find it entertaining, so nothing you're doing is really critique if you're being honest with yourself.. Banging on about it being sub par because they're snapshots is not critique when I've already said a snapshot style was exactly what I wanted for the reportage style shots. It just means you disagree and you don't like snapshot aesthetics.... despite using them yourself.


I find you entertaining, which is different. My crit has been perfectly honest and seems to have awoken, unfortunately, something very defensive in you
 
I find this really interesting and afacinating project, documentary style, so right up my street. How on earth did you find out about these people as I've never heard of this before?
 
Your initial post was crit, yes.. although not really constructive crit as it merely told me why you thought it wasn't very good and gave no suggestion as to how you feel it may be improved. The following entire page and a half is just spent having a group discussion about how crap it is, up to and including insulting the subjects of the images. Nothing in the past 2 pages has been crit. I had no issue with the initial critical comments you made, which is why I didn't even respond until it was obvious that you, bill and the usual "emperor's clothes" cronies clearly were just having a jolly old time bashing the work.

Stop hiding behind the crit argument. It's laughable.

As soon as I point out that your own work is actually deeply flawed for all the same reasons you say mine is, you then try and accuse me of being personal.

If only you realised how inconsistent you are being, and how glaringly obvious your actual motives are.
 
Last edited:
I find this really interesting and afacinating project, documentary style, so right up my street. How on earth did you find out about these people as I've never heard of this before?


Was just bored on the internet one night :)
 
Your initial post was crit, yes.. although not really constructive crit as it merely told me why you thought it wasn't very good and gave no suggestion as to how you feel it may be improved. The following entire page and a half is just spent having a group discussion about how crap it is, up to and including insulting the subjects of the images. Nothing in the past 2 pages has been crit. I had no issue with the initial critical comments you made, which is why I didn't even respond until it was obvious that you, bill and the usual "emperor's clothes" cronies clearly were just having a jolly old time bashing the work.

Stop hiding behind the crit argument. It's laughable.

As soon as I point out that your own work is actually deeply flased for all teh same reasons you say mine is, you then try and accuse me of being personal.

If only you realised how inconsistent you are being, and how glaringly obvious your actual motives are.


Maybe, if we're the usual crowd you'd point to another thread of your images I've commented on. Can't? Thought not?

And remind me where I've commented, positively or negatively on the models? Again, you can't
 
Last edited:
Maybe, if we're the usual crowd you'd point to another thread of your images I've commented on. Can't? Thought not?


I said... "The following entire page and a half is just spent having a group discussion about how crap it is, up to and including insulting the subjects of the images" I never said you specifically. I was highlighting how over a page and a half of this thread has nothing whatsoever to do with crit.
 
Or perhaps people get wound up by his candidness. A lot of what he say makes sense actually if you get past that biased view and take on his comments.
Relax... My comment was meant light hearted. :)
 
Relax... My comment was meant light hearted. :)

Sorry gets very boring this constant negativity.

He gets a lot of abuse for not posting images, show us so e of your work then if you're so good type of thing, then when he does no one really looks at them, just takes the opportunity for other digs.

We have the ability to question and get the thoughts of a uni staff member in the arts facility who is involved with the teaching of students. These are the artists of the future so tapping into that is invaluable. Good job he's thick skinned.

PH has posted two interesting things for me so far. His single landscape image expressing a few miles of Coast was a different take on landscapes, very contemporary.

Now we have a project delivered, there's a lot of work and time taken on this project, on an unusual and unknown subject. Never mind the photography, the whole approach, permissions, getting the confidence and trust of the subjects, before the images are taken. Access to the homes, then for people to take their creations to the beach for the sake of an image, items that will take hours to make and possibly be ruined.

Then the photography, documentary style, very in vogue at the moment, with a personal backstory to many of the subjects or reasons.

It's a really, good, interesting piece of work. So far above the usual single 'pretty' image we see on here. Another example is the 100 portraits of strangers posted yesterday. We should applaud and encourage work like this.
 
He gets a lot of abuse for not posting images, show us so e of your work then if you're so good type of thing, .

Which baffles me. There's shed loads of stuff in my TP gallery.
 
There's shed loads of stuff in my TP gallery.

I thought sheds were bigger than that, aside from the Merfolk I can only see about 64 :D

And having looked at them all there's a wide range of images, many good (especially in the people section), and many I simply can't fathom - which is so YOU cos they're the artier ones and you know me & 'art' don't mix too well (and quite why that lass is ironing the carpet lol)

By comparison though the Merfolk do look a little less impressive and not up to your more usual standard

Back on theme then - so are you saying these Merfolk are trying to live the life they perceive to be of a Mermaid/Merbloke rather than people who just like to dress up? That's both strange & interesting :)

Dave
 
Some are.. some have found commercial application for it as a result of gaining confidence in themselves through support of their community. Others still just do it as a private thing as a personal escapist fantasy. Lily-Rose is perhaps the most pragmatic of the bunch I'm working with.. she doesn't try to "live" as a mermaid, but is still heavily emotionally invested in it.


I genuinely just think some people only see value in aesthetics.. therefore the photograph itself.. the final artefact and its inherent qualities, and not really care about the subjects being photographed or the story involved. Sometimes I feel the photograph has to be neutral - offer nothing to viewer other than a window through which to view the subject. Sometimes that's not the case. It's case dependant. Hence Friedlander, Egglestone et al. If you merely strive to create visually impressive work all the time, its only ever going to be successful some of the time as its obviously not always going to be an appropriate way to approach the work. I didn't see the point in putting all this effort in, only to have people talk about the photographs, and not the subject... ironically... that's exactly what has happened in this forum because that's what people expect - visually impressive photography, and anything that challenges that is met with puzzlement or negativity. It's as if that's photography's only purpose... to be visually impressive as decorative art (and to show how good they are):) I think many of you are selling photography short. It's also a vehicle for many other things, and sometimes those things take precedent over the "photograph" itself.

I'd have been more interested in hearing what people think about the how the work is making them feel about the people when they realise this is something people do (as many didn't even realise this was a thing) rather than trying to ascertain whether it's in focus or not... but oh well.
 
Last edited:
If you merely strive to create visually impressive work all the time, its only ever going to be successful some of the time as its obviously not always going to be an appropriate way to approach the work.

It's also that is a subjective field, so it works for some but not all.

I'd have been more interested in hearing what people think about the how the work is making them feel about the people when they realise this is something people do (as many didn't even realise this was a thing) rather than trying to ascertain whether it's in focus or not... but oh well.

Which is why posting work like this is important, there's more to the subject than a pretty picture, some of it needs to make you think, consider.
I think this is one of those pieces of work that would need a descriptive panel to set the scene to allow the work to be understood more. Taken as images it would be easy to look and pass by or dismiss, but with the back story it makes you look deeper, look at the expressions, there's some real joy, pride, enjoyment shown
 
I'd have been more interested in hearing what people think about the how the work is making them feel about the people when they realise this is something people do (as many didn't even realise this was a thing) rather than trying to ascertain whether it's in focus or not... but oh well.

I'm not a one for judging photographs on their technical merits. It bores me. I'm far more interested in how they work as pictures and as documents. What I see here aren't doing that for me as well as your branch line photographs. Maybe because you got involved in the work being done. It's involvement I feel is lacking here.

As such the photographs all the photographs do is show me that this subculture exists and some of what they do. But as I said earlier, without the full compliment of pictures and the text it's pretty difficult to pass comment.

Which is why posting work like this is important, there's more to the subject than a pretty picture, some of it needs to make you think, consider.
I think this is one of those pieces of work that would need a descriptive panel to set the scene to allow the work to be understood more. Taken as images it would be easy to look and pass by or dismiss, but with the back story it makes you look deeper, look at the expressions, there's some real joy, pride, enjoyment shown

I demand a documentary section for TP!!!
 
I'm not a one for judging photographs on their technical merits. It bores me. I'm far more interested in how they work as pictures and as documents. What I see here aren't doing that for me as well as your branch line photographs. Maybe because you got involved in the work being done. It's involvement I feel is lacking here.

As such the photographs all the photographs do is show me that this subculture exists and some of what they do. But as I said earlier, without the full compliment of pictures and the text it's pretty difficult to pass comment.



I demand a documentary section for TP!!!

That's interesting. There is some sense in what you say actually. For me the differences between the two projects are....

  • I definitely was, and still am more involved with branch. I'm actually involved.. I spent a long time working with the PWRS guys before shooting. With the mermaids I have no way of doing that. I can't share the experiences with them. Branch was very much a photo documentary, where as this is a written ethnography.. or will be. If you take the words away from Sidewalk or The Seventh Man.... you'd probably get the same result. Yet remove the words from Glasshouse, and you wouldn't. I suspect a similar thing is going on here. While ethnographers are usually immersed... I am not for this project, but the very fact that reflexivity is key to ethnography, it doesn't harm the study... but is likely to show in the imagery to an extent.

    You see... THIS is crit people.... what Dave is doing here... not questioning whether it's in focus... Which it is BTW.

  • Branch has had some editing and curation done.. whereas this is an image dump. There are actually just as many snapshots in Branch as there are here, if not more :). Branch is "finished" so far as photography goes... this is not.

  • Branch's subject matter is more accessible and something more people can easily relate to as well, where this may be having the "Arbus" effect to a degree.




The interesting thing for me though.. is photographically... technically... they're both shot identically and in the same style :) The difference technically being Branch has a section where craft skills are on display (Line) and this does not.
 
Last edited:
Branch was very much a photo documentary, where as this is a written ethnography.. or will be.

I was pondering this thread last night and that dawned on me (I'm slow on the uptake) - which made me understand the differences between the two sets of pictures.

In this case the majority of pictures are (I assume) intended to be primarily illustrational, whereas those in Branch are both documentary (as in showing what was/is going on) and evocative of a sense of place.

I understand that this is still in a development stage, if we can watch it develop on here it might prove informative to a lot of people to see how thought processes work. Which is far more important to making good work than knowing how to use a camera 'correctly'.:D
 
I was pondering this thread last night and that dawned on me (I'm slow on the uptake) - which made me understand the differences between the two sets of pictures.

In this case the majority of pictures are (I assume) intended to be primarily illustrational, whereas those in Branch are both documentary (as in showing what was/is going on) and evocative of a sense of place.

Essentially, yes. An ethnography is a research based study into groups of people... an anthropological study. This is why I say the photography is ALMOST incidental to the project. That's not to say it's immaterial, just that pushing creativity and aesthetics too far serves no real purpose for the project. They are indeed illustrative, and very much recording of actions and activities etc. The formal portraits were planned as a section before the bibliography as a "photo album" of the mermaids "dressed" as it were, so some are lit, and posed for that purpose. Everything else is there to scene set, allow the viewer a glimpse into certain things, like Vaughan's solitary tail wearing on the beach, or Kat's tail making activities, and of course Lily-Rose's professional performances.


I understand that this is still in a development stage, if we can watch it develop on here it might prove informative to a lot of people to see how thought processes work. Which is far more important to making good work than knowing how to use a camera 'correctly'.:D

It probably would, but I feel this forum needs a dedicated section for project based work (that's not a 365 or other stuff) otherwise it just brings out the camera club types who just rant for three pages in some retaliatory way because of who is posting rather than what is being posted... ruining the thread for those who are genuinely interested.

I don't go into the glamour forum to attack all the objectifying soft porn (sort it out TP it's 2015 not 1975.. has the concept of feminism not reached TP towers yet?) in there, so if this was in a dedicated section, then they'd not be able to to do that so easily, as they're then purposely be going into a section where there is photography they know full well they'll hate, just say how much they hate it... which would cast them in a fairly doubtful light. As it stands here, they can hide behind the "crit" argument... or at least try to, even though there was no real crit in this thread until this page. If I went into the wildlife forum to do what Bill did in here.... I'd be accused of all manner of things. I have no interest in that work, so therefore I don't go in there.


I can't swim :)

In all seriousness... that's not what I meant. I mean the travel prevents me spending a lot of time with these people socially, whereas with Branch I did, and continue to do so. I became a members of the society.. I work alongside them.. I get my hands dirty. I'll be there again in the morning laying new tarmac at Thornton station actually. In many ways, Branch would have made a better ethnography for that reason. However, Merfolk makes up for it with the huge amount of oral testimony (I've also been spending a great deal of time on Skype with US mermaids), so while it's not about immersion like Branch is, it is incredibly information rich.. but that will not necessarily show in the images... if you think about it, it's impossible to show that in the images. I wanted Branch to be just a documentary project though, and had already developed along those lines. I've been working on Branch since September last year. I'd already been working with these guys for weeks before I even thought about taking a camera with me. With Merfolk, they agreed to collaborate knowing it would be what it is from the outset. They are two extremely different projects.
 
The formal portraits were planned as a section before the bibliography as a "photo album" of the mermaids "dressed" as it were, so some are lit, and posed for that purpose. Everything else is there to scene set, allow the viewer a glimpse into certain things, like Vaughan's solitary tail wearing on the beach, or Kat's tail making activities, and of course Lily-Rose's professional performances.

Much clearer for this simpleton to grasp now. Thanks. I like the idea of the 'portrait album' - I might nick it!

...I feel this forum needs a dedicated section for project based work (that's not a 365 or other stuff)

I think it would show people there are other ways to approach photography than making of 'stunning' individual photographs, and maybe encourage others to give longer term project based photography a try. You never know.
 
I like that idea- a project section. Something good has come from this thread!
 
... evocative of a sense of place.

This phrase rang a bell with me. While it's relating to Branch, I think what the merfolk pictures may be missing is a sense of belonging; the people are involved because it gives them the feeling of belonging to a wider culture, of there being other people they can relate with. A few of the portraits that convey that to a degree but as noted, the snapshots seem to stop at documenting their activity.

It would help to have more context around the pictures, to see them in their appropriate place in the development of the project but it's got me wondering whether Pookeyhead being unable to swim and coming to these people as a complete outsider is imposing a constraint on how much that sense can be conveyed.


I'd also like to see a Projects section but I can't help thinking there'd be maybe half-a-dozen posts a year. Maybe a Project thread tag would be a better solution? You could keep the photos in the relevant section which might help gain a wider audience and the tag will inform people that it's a work in progress and critique should maybe be approached from a different angle than good shot/bad shot.



Apologies if that's all drivel, I'm still new at providing worthwhile feedback.
 
This phrase rang a bell with me. While it's relating to Branch, I think what the merfolk pictures may be missing is a sense of belonging; the people are involved because it gives them the feeling of belonging to a wider culture, of there being other people they can relate with. A few of the portraits that convey that to a degree but as noted, the snapshots seem to stop at documenting their activity.

It would help to have more context around the pictures, to see them in their appropriate place in the development of the project but it's got me wondering whether Pookeyhead being unable to swim and coming to these people as a complete outsider is imposing a constraint on how much that sense can be conveyed.


I'd also like to see a Projects section but I can't help thinking there'd be maybe half-a-dozen posts a year. Maybe a Project thread tag would be a better solution? You could keep the photos in the relevant section which might help gain a wider audience and the tag will inform people that it's a work in progress and critique should maybe be approached from a different angle than good shot/bad shot.



Apologies if that's all drivel, I'm still new at providing worthwhile feedback.


It's kind of difficult to portray a sense of community visually, as the community is virtual in the main. It's more mainstream, with organised events in the US, but not here really. It tends to be a solitary thing for most. There's the occasional meet up, and a couple of the mermaids I've been talking to work together sometimes, but beyond that, trying to show a tight knit community would not actually be telling the truth, as it mainly exists online. The activities where they get together are quite rare. I think there was March of the Mermaids in Brighton last year (ironic name as they were all being pushed in little trolleys :))... other than that, I don't know of any others recently, now any the community are planning.

Evocative of a sense of place... yeah. I see your point, but the guys at the railway society DO have a place... so it's easy to show that. The mermaids do not. They're displaced.
 
So any thoughts on mermaids at their keyboards?
 
So any thoughts on mermaids at their keyboards?


Unless dressed as mermaids.... not sure how that gives this sense of place, or context. That's something we all do... including you... right now as you read this :) Not sure about that. Next time I'm with some of them I'll give it a go, see how it sits with the rest of the images.
 
My point was that if they mainly interact through the internet then surely they should be shown doing so (not necessarily dressed as mermaids, I'm sure they have their down-time).
 
My point was that if they mainly interact through the internet then surely they should be shown doing so (not necessarily dressed as mermaids, I'm sure they have their down-time).

I'll see how that hangs when I get a chance. I can't see it being particularly meaningful though... they would just be shots of them sat at a computer. It would be more productive if that's the case, to actually screen grab relevant content from the websites and forums and include that.. after all.. no one says every image has to be produced with a camera. A shot of a person at a computer is not revealing anything really, as we all do that. I'm doubtful... I'll have a go though.
 
Just a thought, to get your creative juices flowing :)
 
I'd be interested to understand to what level they take it. At the risk of sounding like I'm ridiculing them (I'm not):

Do they eat a lot of fish?
Do they not eat fish?
Do they have their own mer-language or vocabulary?
Is there a specific etiquette when interfacing with other merfolk?
Do they watch Splash or The Little Mermaid frequently?
Do they have mer-heroes?
Do they have any particular interest in marine life or marine issues?
Do they take swimming classes or go swimming frequently to improve their aquatic abilities?
Do they go diving?

I guess what I'm saying is, we can see from these images they like to create costumes and dress up as merfolk, but is that the extent of their hobby? Do they incorporate other aspects of the roleplay into their everyday lives, especially when they can't be wearing a fish tail? There may be plenty more to explore here..

One image shows a marine-themed tattoo. It suggests there is definitely a certain level dedication involved. How far does it go?
 
Last edited:
Just a thought, to get your creative juices flowing :)


Yep.. cheers. All feedback is good feedback :)

I'd be interested to understand to what level they take it. At the risk of sounding like I'm ridiculing them (I'm not):

Do they eat a lot of fish?

Wouldn't that be canibalism? :) In all seriousness, the professional mermaid I'm working with uses her performance to promote environmental and marine issues... so she probably eats responsibly sourced fish from sustainable fishing, yes :)


Do they have their own mer-language or vocabulary?

No.

Is there a specific etiquette when interfacing with other merfolk?

They only use their Mermaid names while interacting in the mermaid community... except Lily-Rose.. that's her real name. There's a strong body positive ethic, that says when wearing the tails in group meetings there is no negativity towards tail design, body size or swimming ability. There is are strong unwritten rules of etiquette though, such as never copy someone else's tail design... rather like a clown copying someone else's face design would be an outrage in the clown community.. same here.


Do they watch Splash or The Little Mermaid frequently?

A stronger than normal emotional connection to Little Mermaid (either Disney version of Hand Christian Andersen version) as a child is a common factor amongst most Mermaids interviewed.

Do they have mer-heroes?

There are several notable members of the mer community that are venerated and regarded very highly, yes.

Do they have any particular interest in marine life or marine issues?

Usually yes... see first question.


Do they take swimming classes or go swimming frequently to improve their aquatic abilities?

Yes. As seen in the images, Caitlin is a professional diver. Other mermaids who actually swim often in the tail need to learn how to swim with a monofin obviously, and free diving lessons and breath exercises are something they all do to improve their ability to stay under for longer.

Do they go diving?

Not necessarily... although as shown by Caitlin... some do.

I guess what I'm saying is, we can see from these images they like to create costumes and dress up as merfolk, but is that the extent of their hobby?

Well.. Lily-Rose is documented with her professional appearances. Caitlin is shown free diving in the aquarium... so you can see more than that.


Do they incorporate other aspects of the roleplay into their everyday lives, especially when they can't be wearing a fish tail? There may be plenty more to explore here..

There are images not shown here that reflect this yes... but if you look carefully... there's always a clue such as jewellery (Vaughan and Lily-Rose portrait images) and accessories, and of course Lily-Rose's tattoo. Other than that, when not wearing a tail, they do not roleplay... they are normal people, who do a range of normal things. The ones more serious about it tend to have a mental attitude that reflects the level of immersion they are at, and these are documented with the oral testimony rather than the photographs, as photography is not the best vehicle to display that.[/quote][/QUOTE]
 
Last edited:
I'm intrigued, as much by the Mertender and what he gets from his role as by the sub-culture itself. Very interesting set that raises plenty of questions.


.

Sorry.. forgot to answer this, and it's a good question. Tom (Lily-Rose's Mertender) is actually her partner. Most Mermaids who do this professionally... I say most like there are loads of them.. there are 4 in the UK apparently... have one for obvious reasons, as they can't walk :) They're also on hand should they get into trouble in the water, and are usually trained life guards or at least people who have a proven record as swimmers. Also.. as it is with most things.... sub-cultures spawn all manner of things, and the Mermaid community is often pestered by "merverts" as they refer to them, which is becoming a more serious problem as the wider community begins to be aware of this.
 
Last edited:
I like the second image.... mainly because they seem as out of place there were they are, as I'm sure they feel in life generally.

How do you know when you have enough images?... do you go out thinking I need just that one last shot to finish it off?.
 
Back
Top