The Never-Ending Quest For Sharpness

"Anyway, moving to the under-subject in this thread, does anyone know where I can get the headphones for my Walkman re-foamed? And where I can buy cassette tapes to play in it? "

Yes, the past.
 
Andysnap said:
"Anyway, moving to the under-subject in this thread, does anyone know where I can get the headphones for my Walkman re-foamed? And where I can buy cassette tapes to play in it? "

Yes, the past.
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In that case, would you pick some up for me, please? You live there after all ... "you have now entered the North, please adjust your watch to 30 years ago". :p
 
Strappy said:
And where I can buy cassette tapes to play in it?
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How insensitive. You'd think someone who must have heard the 'do they still make film for that?' question on a regular basis would know better....:rolleyes:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=cassette audio tapes&tag=googhydr-21&index=aps&hvadid=26477580776&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10277645537467603981&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_1q6llmy8cc_b

But while we're on the subject, anyone know where I can get my in-car 8 track serviced?
 
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I'll have you know young Dean that we are very modern here in 1973......
 
Strappy said:
I'm not a terrible photographer, I'm misunderstood and only time may judge my work. Thanks, that's worth remembering (y)

I jest, of course. Though I doubt that critics of Turner's time were pointing out how he could get more brush strokes per square inch with a new brush rather than questioning the nascent concept of impressionism that he was introducing through his later works.

Anyway, moving to the under-subject in this thread, does anyone know where I can get the headphones for my Walkman re-foamed? And where I can buy cassette tapes to play in it?
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I love my Walkman travel the world with me,and forget what happen to it :(
 
TheGreatSoprendo said:
I am side-tracking the discussion again here, but to be fair, decent cable will be noticeably better than £3.50 cable
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Well, yes. I was exaggerating. But £900 cables will not sound one hundred times better better than £9 cables.

What the audiophools fail to realise is that whilst they might have gold plated connectors and oxygen free copper interconnects, when the music was recorded in the studio, it would have passed through many feet of ordinary cable, tin lead plated printed circuit board tracks and fairly ordinary connectors - yet they think that by upgrading their tiny part of the chain, they can make massive improvements.


Steve.
 
Ok guys I think I need to put my tuppence worth in.

As the person who took this photograph I have read and mulled over all your comments and not for one moment did I ever think while taking this photograph it would be the headliner for such a debate.

I started photography on P&S’s about 11 years ago, significantly around the time of my daughter birth, every parent wants to capture those moments in their child’s life. I slowly progressed to a Canon 1100D + two Kit Lenses and my now 60D with three other lenses nothing over the top price wise, Sigma 17-50mm a Sigma 10-20mm also second-hand Tokina 100mm macro. I was slowly falling into the trap of looking to see how sharp I could get my images and if I could afford better equipment, albeit second-hand to help me achieve my ultimate goal! One of the questions was “Is sharpness valued above artistic merit?” well for me the answer is I don’t know I do need to have something that falls within my artistic radar wither it be sharp or otherwise. I suppose even “Sharpness” is a form of art, if it’s what floats your boat. Some art you like, some you don’t ………….Moriyama for instance, women’s legs encased in fishnets doesn't do it for me but hey that’s subjective too isn't gents……are you listening, @Strappy don't get distracted now. :D

I still could hanker after sharpness in the digital format but since I bought my Canon AE-1 I have been released from that noose of constraint, now more concerned on whether I have images on the film and working the settings (which I may add I do with my 60D, it’s never has been on auto)! I have found film liberating and very pleasurable, ok you may say I have had a good experience so far but both you and I know that I will have some bad and some bloody awful experiences if I progress with film.

My grandfather used to develop his own film, I can remember as a little girl watching him go to his darkroom with what I can only describe as a look of anticipation and excitement, I now know what he was feeling!

“Sharpness” to some might be cold and uninspiring, to others it might be what makes or breaks their art form, the same with movement, black and white, colour, HDR etc……….

You can't compare or say what is right or wrong with anyone’s photographs, how they take them, what they take them with, cheap/expensive/extortionate or how they produce them. For me there is no right or wrong only whether it falls within my artistic remit, something I can take pleasure from and admire whether it be my own work or someone else’s.

Now I have finished my ramble I am off to make a cuppa anyone else for one?
 
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TheGreatSoprendo said:
But while we're on the subject, anyone know where I can get my in-car 8 track serviced?
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Can't help you with the servicing query but I've got half a dozen 8 track cartridges up in my attic if you're interested (seeing as you've still got the player). Any use to you?

Band On The Run - Wings
Electric Warrior - T Rex
Every Good Boy Deserves Favour - Moody Blues
Every Picture Tells A Story - Rod Stewart
For Your Pleasure - Roxy Music
Selling England By The Pound - Genesis
 
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Crtm said:
You can't compare or say what is right or wrong with anyone’s photographs, how they take them, what they take them with, cheap/expensive/extortionate or how they produce them.
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Interesting post, Carol, though I disagree with this bit. I believe you can do all the above and it's perfectly valid provided you accept that it's only from your perspective and that the taker and other viewers may have wildly different and equally valid viewpoints. That's the key thing for me, remembering that your opinion is only yours, you cannot say that it's right or wrong, only that it's what you think. It's also something to bear in mind when you receive criticism, of course :)

Regarding the fishnets, I've had a look at Moriyama's work (not heard of him before this thread) and it's not for me. Over-stylised and over-blown, I can understand why some folk would think it's art but it's too abstract for my taste and the fishnet images strike me as prurient, there's a focus on sexualisation that sits uneasily with the depersonalisation of the subject(s). Arty with the right explanation, fetishistic imagery otherwise.
 
For me the obsession with 'sharpness' stems from a variety of things

Rightly or wrongly:

1 - Blurry shots are often a result of poor technique - so it stands that people assume 'sharp' shots must be good shots

2 - Kit obsession - it seems sharpness has almost become - 'look what my kit can produce'.

Photography these days reminds me very much of the 80s / 90s hi-fi music obsession.

Remember those people who spent more on speaker cables (for ultimate sound quality) than most spent on their turntable or speakers.

They would sit in their bedroom striving for optimum sound quality and if anything, they cared more about the sound quality than the actual music. Some weren't actually that interested in music. Just the hi fi.

That's how I feel since cameras have gone from being photographic tools to 'tech'. Latest tablet, latest phone, latest tv and sadly latest must have camera equipment.

The crap some of my friends listened to simply because it showed off their amazing music systems. A bit of muddy Led Zep through a dodgy sound system was always superior.
 
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StephenM said:
For the same size of film and sensor, and the same size print, the digital image will look sharper than the film one regardless of the amount of detail resolved
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I think film vs. digital on the grounds of resolution alone is a pointless argument now. My opinion is that both technologies have matured to a point at which the laws of physics are the limiting factor and for a film/sensor of an equal size, the resolution is also equal. I don't think there is much more to be done in terms of packing in more pixels per square millimetre but improvements in dynamic range would be useful. Something at which negative film still excels.

Also, film has the benefit of being easy to scale up. You want to double its size? No problem. We won't cut it so small! However, trying to scale up a sensor causes problems on an exponential scale.


Steve.
 
Strappy said:
Interesting post, Carol, though I disagree with this bit. I believe you can do all the above and it's perfectly valid provided you accept that it's only from your perspective and that the taker and other viewers may have wildly different and equally valid viewpoints. That's the key thing for me, remembering that your opinion is only yours, you cannot say that it's right or wrong, only that it's what you think. It's also something to bear in mind when you receive criticism, of course :)

Regarding the fishnets, I've had a look at Moriyama's work (not heard of him before this thread) and it's not for me. Over-stylised and over-blown, I can understand why some folk would think it's art but it's too abstract for my taste and the fishnet images strike me as prurient, there's a focus on sexualisation that sits uneasily with the depersonalisation of the subject(s). Arty with the right explanation, fetishistic imagery otherwise.
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Hi Strappy, I was trying to say what you are saying just did not come across well. Perhaps it's the way I started the paragraph by saying "You can't compare or say"?

As for Moriyama's work you hit the nail on the head for me "depersonalisation" and "fetishistic" is a good way of describing those photographs but as we have said each to their own.....
 
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Strappy said:
Interesting post, Carol, though I disagree with this bit. I believe you can do all the above and it's perfectly valid provided you accept that it's only from your perspective and that the taker and other viewers may have wildly different and equally valid viewpoints. That's the key thing for me, remembering that your opinion is only yours, you cannot say that it's right or wrong, only that it's what you think. It's also something to bear in mind when you receive criticism, of course :)

Regarding the fishnets, I've had a look at Moriyama's work (not heard of him before this thread) and it's not for me. Over-stylised and over-blown, I can understand why some folk would think it's art but it's too abstract for my taste and the fishnet images strike me as prurient, there's a focus on sexualisation that sits uneasily with the depersonalisation of the subject(s). Arty with the right explanation, fetishistic imagery otherwise.
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For the second time in as many days "who are you and what have you done with Dean".

Worryingly I do agree with you on the above points and Carol's post also makes a lot of sense to me as it mirrors my 'journey' (oh dear, sorry) through photography. I used to be, and still am to a degree, obsessed with sharpness and lack of grain, however I am starting look back at my images and re-evaluate them and I am finding that some that I used to like are actually only sharp and not good whereas some I initially dismissed because of grainy unsharpidity I now really like.
 
Stuart M said:
Can't help you with the servicing query but I've got half a dozen 8 track cartridges up in my attic if you're interested (seeing as you've still got the player). Any use to you?

Band On The Run - Wings
Electric Warrior - T Rex
Every Good Boy Deserves Favour - Moody Blues
Every Picture Tells A Story - Rod Stewart
For Your Pleasure - Roxy Music
Selling England By The Pound - Genesis
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Sorry Stuart, I was actually only joking!! I've never owned one (but I remember my grandfather having one). Some fantastic 70s nostalgia in that list though, almost worth hunting for an 8 track player on ebay just to play them!

Jokes apart, you should probably stick them on ebay, someone out there will want them unquestionably! Reminds me...a couple of years ago my dad was going to throw out his old reel-to-reel tape machine, big old Philips beast it was, and not even in full working order. I stopped him and put it on ebay instead, and in a separate auction sold off all the old tape reels (20 or so). The machine itself sold for around £100. I remember the buyer contacting me in advance to say 'I intend to win this auction - when can I collect the machine', and he did....little did I know he would drive from Carlisle (about 100 miles away) to collect it! The tapes made another £50 or so.
 
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dinners said:
They would sit in their bedroom striving for optimum sound quality and if anything, they cared more about the sound quality than the actual music. Some weren't actually that interested in music. Just the hi fi.
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That's exactly the kind of thing I meant when I said people miss the point in my earlier post. They become obsessed by things which should be secondary concerns, not primary ones.

Talking about the hi-fi muppets, gold plated mains plug pins always made me chuckle. Now, obsessed people, I understand the point is that gold is more conductive so you get the maximum amount of power to your precious expensive audio devices, but let me introduce you to this little factor called 'mains fluctuation'...
 
I have not read all this thread,well only the header really,but, my quest for and I will call it technical ability is based on the fact that I am a carp photographer,for what that is worth. Long live fuzzy. :)
 
PMN said:
That's exactly the kind of thing I meant when I said people miss the point in my earlier post. They become obsessed by things which should be secondary concerns, not primary ones.

Talking about the hi-fi muppets, gold plated mains plug pins always made me chuckle. Now, obsessed people, I understand the point is that gold is more conductive so you get the maximum amount of power to your precious expensive audio devices, but let me introduce you to this little factor called 'mains fluctuation'...
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... and let me introduce you to the concept of dedicated turntable power supply units, phono stage amplifiers, and pre-amps that are specifically designed to smooth out mains power fluctuations. Smartarse!
 
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Stuart M said:
... and let me introduce you to the concept of dedicated turntable power supply units and phono stage amplifiers that are specifically designed to smooth out mains power fluctuations. Smartarse!
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I'm talking about voltage fluctuation which has absolutely nothing to do with rectification, smoothing or anything else within the actual gear. 225 volts one day, 219 the next. Smartarse...

The point being in the grand scheme of things a gold plated pin isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference.
 
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PMN said:
I'm talking about voltage fluctuation which has absolutely nothing to do with rectification, smoothing or anything else within the actual gear. 225 volts one day, 219 the next. Smartarse...

The point being in the grand scheme of things a gold plated pin isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference.
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So am I.Try reading up on it ... you might actually learn something that changes your ill-conceived prejudices. And who said anything about rectification ... I certainly didn't mention it. Why would I need to apply rectification to a turntable with an AC motor? It strikes me that you're talking crap on matters you know nothing about.
 
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Stuart M said:
So am I.Try reading up on it ... you might actually learn something that changes your ill-conceived prejudices. And who said anything about rectification ... I certainly didn't mention it.
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Oh dear, we've found our resident forum audiophile whose feathers I've ruffled...

I mentioned rectification as a random throwaway comment to indicate I'm not talking about anything on the PSU side of things, I'm talking purely about the actual supply. The point of gold plated pins is to get the maximum amount of power from the socket to the device, but the mains supply fluctuates a fair bit anyway so putting such importance on such things is rather pointless.

By the way my "prejudices" are not "ill-conceived". I've been a professional sound engineer for almost 20 years, the experience gleaned from such a career has taught me there are more important factors in getting good sound than gold plated plugs. If you think otherwise, you're wrong.
 
Mmm. I always thought this was a photography forum?

Can we please return to the topic in hand and cease with the childishness. We are serious-minded adult photographers not tiny minded pedants. :D
 
Andysnap said:
Mmm. I always thought this was a photography forum?

Can we please return to the topic in hand and cease with the childishness. We are serious-minded adult photographers not tiny minded pedants. :D
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I was just waiting until all the toys were thrown out of the pram, then I was going to return to the seriousness F&C is known for!
 
^^ Yes, you're not the Messiah, you're a very naughty boy.:D
 
Steve Smith said:
I think film vs. digital on the grounds of resolution alone is a pointless argument now. My opinion is that both technologies have matured to a point at which the laws of physics are the limiting factor and for a film/sensor of an equal size, the resolution is also equal. I don't think there is much more to be done in terms of packing in more pixels per square millimetre but improvements in dynamic range would be useful. Something at which negative film still excels.

Also, film has the benefit of being easy to scale up. You want to double its size? No problem. We won't cut it so small! However, trying to scale up a sensor causes problems on an exponential scale.


Steve.
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First, I can't quite see the relevance to my post in your reply?

I'll agree with the second paragraph, but have reservations about the first. From my quick calculation, a full frame 36MP sensor will outresolve any film that I currently know is being made. Also, there are still possible improvements (with known mechanisms) that could be made with sensors, and incremental improvements with film. In both cases, I certainly couldn't rule out some new technological development improving either or both. Neither have hit the limits of physics. what has hit the limits (some time ago) is the ability of a small sensor to resolve enough detail for a large print to have the same detail that film will give. The lack of detail is compensated by the extra sharpness of digital which makes it look better than it is.
 
PMN said:
Oh dear, we've found our resident forum audiophile whose feathers I've ruffled...

I mentioned rectification as a random throwaway comment to indicate I'm not talking about anything on the PSU side of things, I'm talking purely about the actual supply. The point of gold plated pins is to get the maximum amount of power from the socket to the device, but the mains supply fluctuates a fair bit anyway so putting such importance on such things is rather pointless.

By the way my "prejudices" are not "ill-conceived". I've been a professional sound engineer for almost 20 years, the experience gleaned from such a career has taught me there are more important factors in getting good sound than gold plated plugs. If you think otherwise, you're wrong.
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Yeah OK! You could have fooled me. A professional sound engineer that doesn't seem to have come across frequency clipping before. That's different.
 
Annnd... moving on
 
Stuart M said:
Yeah OK! You could have fooled me. A professional sound engineer that doesn't seem to have come across frequency clipping before. That's different.
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"Frequency clipping"? I assume you mean an amplifier essentially going square on the top and bottom of the waveform due to power supply limits? I understand it very well, I'm just not sure what it has to do with gold pins.

Anyway, I'm bored now. If you want to continue this drivel PM me rather than doing it on an open forum.
 
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Andysnap said:
For the second time in as many days "who are you and what have you done with Dean".
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I've realised that if I'm going to be satisfied with anything that I do, I need to take the things that interest me more seriously and take myself a bit less seriously. I have a tendency toward introspection that I've allowed to dominate my personality and it's made me unhappy because I've always known that's not who I am. I've tried to cover up my insecurities through acting the fool but that's a facade. I love photography, I always have and I'm not going to improve unless I accept that I need to work at it, much the same as many other things that interest me. I'm no longer cruising, merely passing time, I'm back and this time it's personal :D

In short, I'm getting over myself and if anyone doesn't like that, that's not my problem.

And don't worry about agreeing with me - just get used to it ;)




Now, how's that for a thread diversion?
 
Some comments are best left alone. :)

Sharpness is another tool for us, like depth of field, shutter speed, selection of focal point, exposure etc etc. If you don't have it then you can only add the appearence of it to a very limited degree, often at risk of spoiling the image. The important thing is to use it where it's needed and not where it is a distraction. Worth noting that the image which provoked this post relies on some parts being sharp and some being blurred to be effective. The actual resolution of detail (different from sharpness as partly mentioned here, but missing the point) is a different thing and less critical in this image.

I'm happy to use film lenses from the 80s on my digital camera, though there are definitely times when a lack of resolution (and the dreaded purple fringing) detract from how pleasing the images are, but not always. But the quest for resolution for some purposes has always been going on, and I remember moving from 35mm to medium format for just such a reason.
 
Thread diversion... I'm not so sure. I think from reading the comments so far that the 'quest for sharpness' is just another genre of photography like HDR, wet plate collodian or macro and is therefore an individual choice. Your decision to drop the facade and concentrate on what makes you happy is another choice and one which may well lead to you finding just what it is about photography that you need to be fulfilled, alternatively it could be a road to madness. :D

I think Dean that you and I are quite similar, outgoing, some might say loud, and generally prone to acting the fool but who spend a lot of time in navel gazing when out of the, for want of a better word, 'limelight'. I have also in the past few months come to realise that I am not going to get better unless I work at it, not something I like to do if I'm honest, but the frustration of not improving is overcoming my general laziness and I am definitely (in my eyes) getting a little bit closer to where I want to be. The problem at the moment is I can't actually see where the road ends... hey ho, carry on and see what happens.

Andy

Going for a lie down now... my brain hurts.
 
ancient_mariner said:
I'm happy to use film lenses from the 80s on my digital camera, though there are definitely times when a lack of resolution (and the dreaded purple fringing) detract from how pleasing the images are, but not always.
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Chromatic aberration can be a pain but it's surprisingly easy to fix with software. I've played with Hooley's old Helios (50mm I think) on my 5D2, when I didn't mess the focussing up it was remarkably sharp and had less CA than my 24-105L!
 
Strappy said:
Regarding the fishnets, I've had a look at Moriyama's work (not heard of him before this thread) and it's not for me. Over-stylised and over-blown, I can understand why some folk would think it's art but it's too abstract for my taste and the fishnet images strike me as prurient, there's a focus on sexualisation that sits uneasily with the depersonalisation of the subject(s). Arty with the right explanation, fetishistic imagery otherwise.
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....So where can I see these fishnets? It's been a long time since I have seen any and I fancy a perv - To hell with any intellectual analysis of titillating pictures.
 
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