The term "EXPOSURE" is obsolete… really?

NO!

Pressing the shutter is just the end
of what could have been done!

le finale...but one can always do another take a better one, and make adjustments...is that what you mean KQ?
its a depressing thought to think of the shutter as the end of a beautiful friendship, it could be the start of a different and altogether more sublime friendship at f8 instead of f5.6..
pas de regrets...
 
OK.. so the crux of the suggestion, is that digital cameras; not recording an image, but a gazillion light level readings; with sufficient sensitivity, and range; then 'exposure'... I am going to assume a qualification here.. exposure VALUES.. don't really matter.... So far... err... yeah, I am sort of with you; and inclined to agree on a very very broad 'principle'.

EV's (as marked on my hand held light meters) never 'really' mattered anyway; Before standardized commercial emulsions, photographers assessed lighting by eye, and made a best guess of the 'settings' to use for the scene they saw and how strong they had brewed the stuff they smeared on their glass plates.

When standardized commercial photo-emulsions became available, 'settings' were still usually decided upon by assessing the scene's lighting 'by eye', and it was only when selenium cell light meters became available; that EV's were invented.

Scientific 'standard' unit of light intensity is the Lumen.. I have a rather nice Lux light-meter some-where, it is almost utterly useless for photography, trying to translate LUX readings into something 'useful' to me to decide on camera settings; Hence the EV scale is a contrivance of convenience, that condenses the complex logarithmic nature of light intensity, to a more useful scale, that can be more readily transcribed from an EV value, into Shutter-Speed, Aperture-Setting and ASA/ISO value.. in conjunction with the aperture similarly being 'condensed' for convenience from an actual linear diameter of a hole, to a ratio proportional to a lens' focal length.

There never was a scientifically calculable 'correct' exposure value; on film, there was simply a range of EV's over which a more or less 'acceptable' image may be formed, within the dynamic range of the capture medium, and it was always a matter of personal discretion where within that range any-one though that the EV was best cantered.

Hence, migration to digital technology, de-coupling the issue of 'image making' from the point of capture, to the point of display, recording not an 'image' but an array of individual light level intensity across a scene, from which an image may be rendered;

IF you have sufficient sensitivity, to be able to accurately record the very lowest light level intensity of individual 'pixel' of a scene, and across sufficient dynamic range, that the computer can record a 'meaningful' value, everywhere and anywhere, that it doesn't matter where the 'exposure value' is centered, you can take that data, and center the brightness of an image produced from it, anywhere you like, without losing either shadow or highlight detail at either end....

THEN in an incredibly idealised 'perfect' system, then, well? The Exposure Value 'may' become something more of a redundancy and a less useful 'convenience' than it has ever been... but doesn't necessarily make it 'redundant'.

What such an 'idealised' system MAY do is make the ISO sensitivity of a sensor or film-speed 'irrelevant'.. and THAT is about all.

You would have a system, in which you have a 'universal' ISO, you didn't need to adjust when you made an 'exposure'.. to 'centre' the EV...

Variable ISO settings in digital, are mimicking what used to be done slightly more laboriously with film, or even preparation of glass-plate emulsions, and merely providing means to over-come the 'problem' that there has not yet been a 'universal' ISO sensitivity emulsion or sensor, and offer a mechanism by which you can adjust the center of the Dynamic-Range to better suit the lighting situation you are contending with.

Digital systems, have made this rather more convenient and easy to achieve, adjusting the amount of signal amplification from individual receptors on a Sensor-Array, compared to brewing a completely different strength emulsion of silver-nitrate and egg-white... but little else; and worth noting that the actual 'mechanics' of the ISO dial on a digital camera isn't actually doing very much different to the button on my old selenium cell Leningrad EV meter, that switched the scale between 'Indoor' and 'Outdoor' changing a resistor value in the Wheatstone bridge circuit of the galvanometer, to increase the needle movement when the sensor voltage was low in dim light, and reduce it when it was high in bright light!

Personally I am NOT convinced, that modern Digital sensors ARE peculiarly more sensitive than halide film, and that they can 'accurately' record such a high range of light-level readings across such a large dynamic range, EVEN as film, let alone, one SO wide as to provide a UNI-Sensor, that could cope with all situations and light levels without manual intervention to centre an 'exposure'.

YES, modern digi-sensors are amazing; my DSLR has an ISO sensitivity range that starts at a nominal ISO-100, and goes all the way up to ISO-25,600 or something in that order... BUT, by means of signal amplification, which amplifies signal distortion, or 'noise'.

THAT sort of suggests that even the best current dig-sensors, for all the low light sensitivity they may possess, and the ability they may or may not have to record an enormous dynamic range, towards making EV cantering some-what redundant... they DONT record the light levels all THAT accurately, and certainly not accurately enough, that they are anywhere near achieving the range of sensitivity and accuracy that would be required of a practicable 'Universal ISO Sensor'....

They are, currently only just able to mimic the capabilities of silver halide, and as far as dynamic rage is concerned, thanks to Digital-Sampling 'Threshold' clipping, systems are STILL far from achieving the subtle rendering between light levels that film may record...

Potential to produce a universal sensor MAY be there; but, it would require sensors that are far more sensitive and far more accurate than even the current generations available, and more still, far more 'refined' sampling schemes to exploit them, than the 16-bit per channel employed my most digital imaging of the last two decades or so.

It 'may' be theoretically possible, it may even be technologically possible... BUT in the last ten or fifteen years of Digital Image evolution, there has been very little movement towards it; whilst camera makers have been striving not to 'improve' upon basic digital sampling algorithms, conceived and standardised, what, twenty years ago? But, dumbing down to a mass-market 'Acceptable-Quality-Level', and striving for cost savings over significant performance enhancements.

So, again, personally I don't think that a uni-ISO sensor is something that is here, or in development, less still likely to be a practical commercial viability, in the foreseeable future.

Meanwhile.. "Exposure".. practically is picking the 'settings' of ISO-Sensitivity or Film-Speed, Shutter-Speed and Aperture, not just to suit the ambient light intensity, but the scene as a whole, and the subject within it, to make a picture, not just with a well centered average brightness, but to control Depth of Field, and motion blur, too

IF the sampling scene, is powerful enough it records changing light-levels at small enough sampling periods, say, 10Khz or more, for a period of what, 30 seconds? The range of shutter-speeds of my DSLR, to complete a data-set that contains effectively a series of exposures at a shutter speed above 1/10,000th, that can then be 'exposure stacked' to 'streak' a subject across a frame, or not, in post process; then that 'might' make the shutter-speed setting less relevant at Point-of-Capture... in a similar manner to a 'Uni-Sensor' making the ISO setting irrelevant, at point of capture, and in post-process, you may be able to re-select 'effective' settings to 'make' an alternative 'exposure' after the event.... but, would leave the data-set still dependent on aperture setting.. now again, that could be made irrelevant, if the system sampled the scene at all possible aperture settings on the lens, to likewise allow those to be exposure stacked in post processing..

NOW what you are talking about is not just a Uni-Sensor, but a dynamic, multi-scanning camera, that is sampling a scene, at a frequency, not just in excess of 10Khz to compile a data-set to cover range of shutter speed effects, but maybe 24x that frequency to do so at all available aperture settings, AND at something probably in excess of 64bit-per channel sampling levels...

May be possible to push the electrickery of a sensor array to obtain that sort of sampling frequency, even obtain something close to the required sensitivity and accuracy, at that short a sampling frequency, possibly even 'cheat' somewhat, using interpolation and comparison, between samples, to 'render' that many effective exposures that fast.. but the aperture remains a physical hole, making an electronic iris react THAT fast, I suspect WOULD be something of a challenge!

But hey; how big is a 16bit per channel, 24 Mpix 'Raw' image file? Now inflate that, to 64bits per channel; then inflate it again, to include both focus-stacking data, and shutter-speed stacking data, ALL at similar 64bit per channel sampling levels?

Computer electronics have come a heck of a long way the last 25 years; but that sort of sledge hammer processing power isn't infinite; and remember, it's the very nature of digital sampling that is the 'problem' here, with threshold clipping 'condensing' the data at source; so even greater sampling compression, or clipping, to contend with actually inflating that bulk of data to achieve some sort of redundancy of point of capture exposure-settings, is actually perverse to the objective.

So... conclusion is, NO I don't think that the 'term' exposure is obsolete, as it has come to be commonly used... it has always been a rather vague and ambiguous description, of what you do at the point of capture in the image making process.. or synonym for an 'image' itself, as well as abbreviation for 'exposure settings' or 'exposure value'.

It has 'evolved' from simply meaning taking off the les cap and 'exposing' the glass plate to image forming light; Changes brought about by dint of 'Digital' technology MAY see the terms usage evolve differently, depending on what that alternate technology begs of us at point of image capture, but it's unlikely, that the term will be abandoned.

Meanwhile; I REALLY don't believe that Digital Systems have reached the point that the they are genuinely both sensitive and accurate enough to even make ISO settings irrelevant, at point of capture; let alone that they may become so refined that sampling rates high enough to make shutter speeds irrelevant, let alone aperture settings, that there is, even in the future, very much hope that we can rely on bulk data capture, to cover any and all eventualities, and record enough data, that we can make all our 'exposure' decisions, in post-process, after the event, from some enormous, all encompassing data-file, covering all extremes of both the dynamic range, as well as the focus field, and the shutter range, derived not just of an incredibly evolved super-sensor, but also some pretty evolved super-high frequency sampling schemes that can also sample all variables of both shutter speed and aperture... IN a fraction of a second!

Should we perhaps revise our interpretation of what IS an 'exposure'?

Well utterly different question, really; but back to basics it IS simply the practice of taking off the lens cap and letting the cat see the rabbit; whether the cat is a glass plate, a bit of celluloid, or a silicon chip, and whatever the rabbit happens to be, anything from a landscape to a portrait to a macro image of an insect and all manner of subject in between or beyond...

It is already a term that is born of legacy, to denote the 'moment of image capture', and in many camera's the 'sensor' has probably been 'exposed' to the scene for however long, before you press the shutter release to prompt a data-capture of it, especially if you are using the preview screen not the optical view-finder!

Compounding of the term to cover the Exposure Value, and the cantering of that EV in an image, or more, actual Exposure Settings, IS merely accepting a confusion of terminology born of abbreviation, failing to sufficiently differentiate between the 'moment' of exposure, the 'exposure value' and 'exposure settings'...

That does not require the term 'exposure' to be consigned to obsolescence, or be abandoned, or for its definition to be changed; merely for people to exploit the fantastic quality of the English Language to be explicit and accurate, and use the term less ambiguously or errantly, whether by context or qualification, in order to indicate whether they are talking about the act of exposure, exposure value or exposure settings, or even an actual rendered image, that was made by 'exposure'?!?

As to the 'technology'... how that has evolved over the last two hundred years, and how it is likely to evolve over the next two hundred or more.. may influence the methods and practices of how we create photographic images, but that is a separate matter to how we employ Language to describe it.

IF Digital technology evolves to the degree that a uni-sensor becomes a viable reality, whether that may make ISO settings an irrelevance, whether high-frequency sampling could make shutter and aperture settings a similar irrelevance, and an 'image exposure' could be create entirely in post process from an excess of image date to cover all eventualities? Well, it could be done. I don't think that it will be, certainly not in the foreseeable future, but even if it were, I REALLY don't see people in general, abandoning the term 'exposure'.. or using it any less ambiguously as they do now!
 
le finale...but one can always do another take a better one, and make adjustments...is that what you mean KQ?
its a depressing thought to think of the shutter as the end of a beautiful friendship, it could be the start of a different and altogether more sublime friendship at f8 instead of f5.6..
pas de regrets...
Bless you Geof, for keeping us on track and smiling - and Mike, too, though I'm not convinced that track is the right term there (sorry Mike, just teasing ..) ...
 
I think it's more important with digital than film. Film can tolerate a lot of over exposure and a little bit of under exposure.


Steve.
 
NO!

Pressing the shutter is just the end
of what could have been done!
The "No" is so far the only thing you've said I could come close to agreeing with.

Pressing the shutter is neither the beginning nor the end. It's just one step somewhere in the middle.

Modern ISO-less sensors (is it telling that the post-exposure attitude only comes from Nikon FX shooters?) may negate the effects of ISO and forgive poor camera control, but the visual effects of shutter speed and aperture cannot be adjusted post-shutter release so the exposure cannot be regarded as obsolete.
 
I think it's more important with digital than film. Film can tolerate a lot of over exposure and a little bit of under exposure.


Steve.
That'll be neg film then, Joe, though you didn't say so ...
 
Modern ISO-less sensors (is it telling that the post-exposure attitude only comes from Nikon FX shooters?) may negate the effects of ISO and forgive poor camera control,

Can you think of any situation in which this wouldn't be poor camera control? If not maybe you can at least accept that shooting at the "wrong" settings could be a deliberate decision by someone who has engaged their brain and thought about it.
 
All electronic sensors are ISO less - in that gain ( or a change in ISO) is applied post capture by the internal electronics. The sensitivity of the sensor is set by physical factors set within the sensor profile - its ability to convert captured light photons into registered elections ( called by physicists - Quantum Efficiency ) can only be changed by changing the actual sensor used.
It is common amongst Astro photographers, who use dedicated science Astro CCD cameras ( as opposed to the commercial DSLR etc), to do all the post capture adjustments themselves rather than leave it to internal algorithms and electronics that we use via adjusting the ISO dial on our cameras. This more hands on approach to true raw post captured image data ( not to be confused with RAW image files) requires a high level of skill and a significant amount of time applied to every single image. It's not unusual for an astrophotographers to put in several weeks of work to get a single image to the point they are satisfied with it. My understanding is that conventional photographers already have some ability to adjust ISO post capture ( e.g. such as the histogram in PS being hand stretched up to its back and white points) both globally or locally but to take this any further would require us to shoot considerably above the present ceiling of 14 bit depth - perhaps 16 or even 32 bit.
It would be very difficult for most regular photographers banging off many different sort of images per week to cope with the vast amount of true raw data contained within a single image that has not had its gain (ISO) adjusted automatically via the setting on the ISO camera dial.
If I'm wrong about this please feel free to correct me.
James
 
Bless you Geof, for keeping us on track and smiling - and Mike, too, though I'm not convinced that track is the right term there (sorry Mike, just teasing ..) ...

Is Mike in some way connected with...track....
 
I was once, maybe, my doctor tells me; but after years of following the herd running round in circles going no-where, I abandoned circuit racing, as it was just too expensive and unrewarding, and returned to trials riding; where I may miss a few gates from time to time, and have frequently fallen off my log, and have probably never achieved the placings I could on a track... BUT.. its kept me entertained...
 
When standardized commercial photo-emulsions became available, 'settings' were still usually decided upon by assessing the scene's lighting 'by eye', and it was only when selenium cell light meters became available; that EV's were invented.

As I'm sure you know, EV is purely a function of shutter speed and aperture and is not a measure of light level, unless an ISO is also eferenced. LV is the light value reading. LV = EV at ISO 100.


Steve.
 
I was once, maybe, my doctor tells me; but after years of following the herd running round in circles going no-where, I abandoned circuit racing, as it was just too expensive and unrewarding, and returned to trials riding; where I may miss a few gates from time to time, and have frequently fallen off my log, and have probably never achieved the placings I could on a track... BUT.. its kept me entertained...

sammy miller rides again??

its the smell of the crow and the roar of the greasepaint in some respects...i loved the smell of castro R when i went to see road races
what did you race...and what cc...its part of my growing up following road races and going to tracks as much as i could
no english ones...just kirkaldy and the borders circuit charterhall...i did do a week at the TT 1963 to see my idol bob mac...who got killed soon after on the mountain driving his first and only works ride on a honda
great days then
cheers
geof
 
sammy miller rides again??
I'd be surprised; Chap's pushg 90!
I expect all the money I have paid yer maun for 'replica' mudguards and stuff, over the gears is keeping his dentures in good Oyrish Whisky in the nursing home!
Or at least I hope it is!
its the smell of the crow and the roar of the greasepaint in some respects...i loved the smell of castro R when i went to see road races
what did you race...and what cc...its part of my growing up following road races and going to tracks as much as i could
I have had a 1981 Motesa Cota 248 since I was 15 in early 1986, when over-eager to get cracking, I found the loophole in ACU regs that let me ride in the 'adult' class from the year in which I 'turned' 16, rather than from when I had turned 16!
That was prompted by spending chunks of my yoof attendng Vale Oslows yoof scheme on the old BSA Armoury Rd factory waste-land, trying to kill myself on Yamaha TY 80's 125's and 175's.
Cota, when I bought it was just four years old, its first and only Day-Time MOT expired, and it was a fairly respectable clubman tool, based on Montesas only pre-honda championship winning bike of 1980.. with T-Shocks, JUST before they were rendered obsolete by the trick-cycles with fancy suspension from Fantic and Co. We have aged disgracefully together ever since, moving from contemporary trails, first to the 'clubman' T-Shock class for obsolete old iron, that has eventually been absorbed into the classic and pre-65 world.
I was encouraged to have a crack at road-racing a few times by wizzened fellows who insisted that that was the 'mans' sport.. which was amusing when they tried putting the cota around my practice section in the orchard! I had a couple of 'rebel' practce sessions before I had a road bke licence, on borrowed bikes, with borrowed leaters and licence..... and was 'almost' convinced to buy a Honda MT125 GP bike, when I was 16, but, I'm 6'3" FFS! I was riding the thing like a farmer on a push bke wth my knees stuck outside the fairing, and elbows out like a chcken dance to get into a 'race crouch' on the ruddy thing!
Similarly tried a couple of 250 proddy bikes; before circa 1992, I agreed to give it a go, 'seriousely'; and planned to buy a KR1S for 250 proddy/400 super-sport intendng to have a crack at ONE hot season ad see if it wet anywhere.... it didn't! I got as far as Cadwell; was given a VFR400 that had bee crashed far too many times; peed off the management, for ot braking, and passing other riders, who were apparently already national level racers, ad NOT crashing, when I took the thing for an impromptu Moto-Cross session at the goose-kneck, as actually using the brakes at something like a race speed, the damn thing just went into a violent wobble! Which I saved! Without crashing! But was chastised for not stopping?!?!?
I was actually at university at the time, and I had discovered, by chance 'The Dsc-Lock'; which in order to get one to stop my own road bike being nicked all the while; we had to buy the minimum manufacturing batch quantity; so did; leading to excess locks being sold on mail-order, and a mail-order accessory business being set up out of the spare bedroom of shared house! Which wasn't exactly idea; so we took on a shop... and I quit uni to run it hoping I could sponsor myself to go racing... we didn't... we went bust! So I pulled the Cota out the garage before the official receiver had a chance to seize it, and went back t trialzin! As said, I found circuit racing rather boring, tearing around in circles!
But yeah, tag end of the high two-stroke era, Catrol R probably has addled my brain a bit!
Still stick it in the strimmer, for that 'fix' and delusional reminiscence whilst dong the garden though ;-)
REAL ROAD-RACING, is of course a very different kettle of fish! Peculiar to Mad-Micks for the most part.. closest I have come is going to the Island, to see the 'Time-Trials'.. against the clock, no massed start, its not real 'racing' is it? ;-) Did see owld Joey doing his stuff on everything from the 125's I cant fit on, up, though,.... in the wet! Yeah.. and they wonder why we fink th'oy-rish is a bit tick! Nah, y'foyn, juz foyne! Juz pick the 'edge-row owt your 'at'n' have annuvva go! Be foyne, FOYNE! :cool:
I'd probably find that a bit more interesting TBH, more scenery to look at along the way! Or at least a heck of a lot more variation and variety and things to think about, which is what has always made trials so much more 'engaging' for me; even when we have to ride the same section, maybe three times, change in surface as other bikes have bee through its always 'different', even if an observer hasn't shiftd a gate some-one's knocked over!
But here I am again off-track.. WHY is every-one so keen to squash themselves into the same thin ribbon or real-estate, as every-one else, eh?
 
Technically 'correct' exposure is when middle-grey in the subject is recorded as middle of the histogram and rendered as middle-grey in the final output. If you're shooting straight to JPEG (automatically produced in-camera with no brightness adjustment post capture) as 99% of the world's image makers do with their smartphones, then 'correct' exposure is vital, and always will be.

But if you're post-processing from Raw data, then correct exposure is often very different to 'optimum' exposure that maximises photon capture. And technology will not change that either.

What sensor technology has done though is to expand dynamic range, meaning that critical accuracy is not so necessary and there's much more leeway. And now that there are a few ISO-less* or ISO-invariant sensors about (eg Sony/Nikon) then this takes things another big step forward. You can really take some liberties with those and still get a good result - if you have the time and post-processing ability.

*ISO-less does not mean that exposure doesn't matter - it just means that there is no additional noise penalty for increasing brightness in post-processing (post A/D-converter), as opposed to raising ISO at the shooting stage (pre A/D-converter).
 
I'd be surprised; Chap's pushg 90!
I expect all the money I have paid yer maun for 'replica' mudguards and stuff, over the gears is keeping his dentures in good Oyrish Whisky in the nursing home!
Or at least I hope it is!

I have had a 1981 Motesa Cota 248 since I was 15 in early 1986, when over-eager to get cracking, I found the loophole in ACU regs that let me ride in the 'adult' class from the year in which I 'turned' 16, rather than from when I had turned 16!
That was prompted by spending chunks of my yoof attendng Vale Oslows yoof scheme on the old BSA Armoury Rd factory waste-land, trying to kill myself on Yamaha TY 80's 125's and 175's.
Cota, when I bought it was just four years old, its first and only Day-Time MOT expired, and it was a fairly respectable clubman tool, based on Montesas only pre-honda championship winning bike of 1980.. with T-Shocks, JUST before they were rendered obsolete by the trick-cycles with fancy suspension from Fantic and Co. We have aged disgracefully together ever since, moving from contemporary trails, first to the 'clubman' T-Shock class for obsolete old iron, that has eventually been absorbed into the classic and pre-65 world.
I was encouraged to have a crack at road-racing a few times by wizzened fellows who insisted that that was the 'mans' sport.. which was amusing when they tried putting the cota around my practice section in the orchard! I had a couple of 'rebel' practce sessions before I had a road bke licence, on borrowed bikes, with borrowed leaters and licence..... and was 'almost' convinced to buy a Honda MT125 GP bike, when I was 16, but, I'm 6'3" FFS! I was riding the thing like a farmer on a push bke wth my knees stuck outside the fairing, and elbows out like a chcken dance to get into a 'race crouch' on the ruddy thing!
Similarly tried a couple of 250 proddy bikes; before circa 1992, I agreed to give it a go, 'seriousely'; and planned to buy a KR1S for 250 proddy/400 super-sport intendng to have a crack at ONE hot season ad see if it wet anywhere.... it didn't! I got as far as Cadwell; was given a VFR400 that had bee crashed far too many times; peed off the management, for ot braking, and passing other riders, who were apparently already national level racers, ad NOT crashing, when I took the thing for an impromptu Moto-Cross session at the goose-kneck, as actually using the brakes at something like a race speed, the damn thing just went into a violent wobble! Which I saved! Without crashing! But was chastised for not stopping?!?!?
I was actually at university at the time, and I had discovered, by chance 'The Dsc-Lock'; which in order to get one to stop my own road bike being nicked all the while; we had to buy the minimum manufacturing batch quantity; so did; leading to excess locks being sold on mail-order, and a mail-order accessory business being set up out of the spare bedroom of shared house! Which wasn't exactly idea; so we took on a shop... and I quit uni to run it hoping I could sponsor myself to go racing... we didn't... we went bust! So I pulled the Cota out the garage before the official receiver had a chance to seize it, and went back t trialzin! As said, I found circuit racing rather boring, tearing around in circles!
But yeah, tag end of the high two-stroke era, Catrol R probably has addled my brain a bit!
Still stick it in the strimmer, for that 'fix' and delusional reminiscence whilst dong the garden though ;-)
REAL ROAD-RACING, is of course a very different kettle of fish! Peculiar to Mad-Micks for the most part.. closest I have come is going to the Island, to see the 'Time-Trials'.. against the clock, no massed start, its not real 'racing' is it? ;-) Did see owld Joey doing his stuff on everything from the 125's I cant fit on, up, though,.... in the wet! Yeah.. and they wonder why we fink th'oy-rish is a bit tick! Nah, y'foyn, juz foyne! Juz pick the 'edge-row owt your 'at'n' have annuvva go! Be foyne, FOYNE! :cool:
I'd probably find that a bit more interesting TBH, more scenery to look at along the way! Or at least a heck of a lot more variation and variety and things to think about, which is what has always made trials so much more 'engaging' for me; even when we have to ride the same section, maybe three times, change in surface as other bikes have bee through its always 'different', even if an observer hasn't shiftd a gate some-one's knocked over!
But here I am again off-track.. WHY is every-one so keen to squash themselves into the same thin ribbon or real-estate, as every-one else, eh?


Well on trial at least you get to put a foot down occasionally without losing it on a bridge parapet or dry stone wall
✖️
Have you heard of Stanley schofields sound stories?
Cheers
Geof. (Duke?)
 
Back
Top