The virus. PPE. Part 1

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Nod said:
I think we'll wait for a very high tide to wash all the crap Grockles off the sea wall
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Same thing I guess? :D
 
NeilA1975 said:
I think the word is 'desperate'.
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I'm assuming (never a good thing to do) you mean the person who dug into this. If I may say so, it sounds like a case of 'blame the messenger' on your part .

I had a think about it after I posted it..ie wondering why someone would go to those lengths and I came to the conclusion that Dominic Cummings has really angered so many people that it's motivated one person to cause him more problems. The man's research into the properties in Durham has not been borne out of the desperation you claim it is but sheer anger. Bear in mind that to date 60 Tory MPs have refused to do what Boris J has asked of them..ie 'to move on' If you're minded to read the Guardian article below you'll see that two of those MPs are Tory whips. Top medical people and scientists have strongly criticised him too.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ngs-grows-as-dozens-of-mps-defy-boris-johnson
 
JohnC6 said:
I'm assuming (never a good thing to do) you mean the person who dug into this. If I may say so, it sounds like a case of 'blame the messenger' on your part .

I had a think about it after I posted it..ie wondering why someone would go to those lengths and I came to the conclusion that Dominic Cummings has really angered so many people that it's motivated one person to cause him more problems. The man's research into the properties in Durham has not been borne out of the desperation you claim it is but sheer anger. Bear in mind that to date 60 Tory MPs have refused to do what Boris J has asked of them..ie 'to move on' If you're minded to read the Guardian article below you'll see that two of those MPs are Tory whips. Top medical people and scientists have strongly criticised him too.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ngs-grows-as-dozens-of-mps-defy-boris-johnson
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My father in law who has been a life long tory voter has vowed to never vote for them again over the Cummings issue, I think lots of people are angry that Boris just washed his hands of the issue, regardless of political leaning.
 
JohnC6 said:
I'm assuming (never a good thing to do) you mean the person who dug into this. If I may say so, it sounds like a case of 'blame the messenger' on your part .
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Not at all - These people despised Cummings long before the Mirror & Guardian story which they wrongly assumed would be the end of him. That didn't work so now they'll continue to dig for something else to try & pin on him.
This latest story you linked appears to lack any credibility whatsoever which would explain why the media won't go near it with a barge pole - maybe they've learnt their lesson after 'Durham-Gate'. Probably not though.

I had a think about it after I posted it..ie wondering why someone would go to those lengths and I came to the conclusion that Dominic Cummings has really angered so many people that it's motivated one person to cause him more problems.
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Motivated by hatred by the looks of it. I can't find anythng on his time line condemning the action of multiple MP's that have actually broken the law. Why is he not angry or 'investigating' them'?

The man's research into the properties in Durham has not been borne out of the desperation you claim it is but sheer anger. Bear in mind that to date 60 Tory MPs have refused to do what Boris J has asked of them..ie 'to move on' If you're minded to read the Guardian article below you'll see that two of those MPs are Tory whips. Top medical people and scientists have strongly criticised him too.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ngs-grows-as-dozens-of-mps-defy-boris-johnson
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Sorry, I couldn't care less for most of the MSM these days, Guardian included.
 
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KitsuneAndy said:
My father in law who has been a life long tory voter has vowed to never vote for them again over the Cummings issue, I think lots of people are angry that Boris just washed his hands of the issue, regardless of political leaning.
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And when we see half the cabinet go on TV to lie about Cummings, how can we believe them when they talk about the virus ... or anything really. It wasn’t surprising for Johnson to be lying about it, he’s built his ‘career’ on lying, but the others???
 
KitsuneAndy said:
My father in law who has been a life long tory voter has vowed to never vote for them again over the Cummings issue, I think lots of people are angry that Boris just washed his hands of the issue, regardless of political leaning.
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It's not just the Cummings fiasco that I think will lose them votes, Andy. It's been shown..that they've run a campaign of deception. People talk about obfuscation, I did on here at one time..but obfuscation means..obscure,unclear or unintelligible. The stats we've been fed on a daily basis don't fall into any of those categories.The stats were not obscure, they were not unclear nor unintelligible..what they were, were misrepresentations ..some would say 'lies' and imo done with the deliberate intention of deceiving. That's bad enough but it tells me that those running this country are treating us as fools that they think they won't be challenged.

There's something else that I've thought about re bad decision-making. My understanding is that lockdown was not introduced when it should have been because Behavioural scientists advised the government that we'd weary of it if it was introduced too early. They could see what was happening in Italy,Spain and France on the negative side and S.Korea on the positive side. If I had been part of the decision-making process I'd have questioned what could happen if lockdown wasn't introduced at the time they were thinking about it and on the evidence coming from the aforementioned countries I'd have erred on the side of caution and introduced it on the grounds that the alternative could be disastrous. It's how I make decisions. Weighing up how bad the alternative could be. The figures for each day after the decision not to introduce lockdown tell a grim story. On top of this there's the Care Homes issue too.
 
NeilA1975 said:
Not at all - These people despised Cummings long before the Mirror & Guardian story which they wrongly assumed would be the end of him. That didn't work so now they'll continue to dig for something else to try & pin on him.
This latest story you linked appears to lack any credibility whatsoever which would explain why the media won't go near it with a barge pole - maybe they've learnt their lesson after 'Durham-Gate'. Probably not though.

I expect if it isn't true he might be facing legal action, then.

Motivated by hatred by the looks of it. I can't find anythng on his time line condemning the action of multiple MP's that have actually broken the law.

Why is he not angry or 'investigating' them'?

Can't help you on that one..sorry.


Sorry, I couldn't care less for most of the MSM these days, Guardian included.
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No need to apologise. People have different views, they don't have to apologise for holding them.

It's fair to say, putting aside the above issue re planning permission, that there's a lot of antipathy towards this government for one reason or another and it's not been generated by MSM.
 
Retune said:
View: https://BANNED/PaulBrandITV/status/1267752708242649090
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I've just basically said that in my post above..lol. I was taken up with the reply to me by Neil and responding and I overlooked your post. So it's official, then ... :)
 
bass_junkie83 said:
I heard rumour of this a few days ago but couldn't see it reported anywhere, similarly I have not seen it mentioned here either. But I found this article today.

From here. https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...od-standards-during-the-covid-pandemic/26/05/
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This is dreadful. Remember all the promises that standards would not be compromised ? I see our MP Richard Graham voted against the amendment. I'll be Emailing him !!

I've just googled it and there are other reports. It has to go through the Lords on a second reading. I have no idea if they can stop it..ie without the amendment guaranteeing we keep the current standards. I expect it's all (mostly)about US imports. So..if they do this re our food then we can't believe them on not selling off parts of the NHS to the US either.

https://www.foodmanufacture.co.uk/A...ure-Bill-MPs-don-t-back-import-standards-call
 
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JohnC6 said:
This is dreadful. Remember all the promises that standards would not be compromised ? I see our MP Richard Graham voted against the amendment. I'll be Emailing him !!

I've just googled it and there are other reports. It has to go through the Lords on a second reading. I have no idea if they can stop it..ie without the amendment guaranteeing we keep the current standards. I expect it's all (mostly)about US imports. So..if they do this re our food then we can't believe them on not selling off parts of the NHS to the US either.

https://www.foodmanufacture.co.uk/A...ure-Bill-MPs-don-t-back-import-standards-call
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Outright lie!!! Can someone who supports the government really defend them on this. It was quite clear that we would not sacrifice standards and this bill means that we can. Granted, we may not when it comes to it, but why have that in if we dont plan to make use of it.

On a plus side, with Starmer being more electable than Corbyn, and with the pain of a boris brexit and the lies, I think Labour will landslide the next election and probably the one after that - sadly we will have gone back so much as a country it will not be a quick, or easy fix!
 
There might have been a lot of lies and incidences of someone being, 'economical with the truth', but I'd like everyone to remember in just seven months we will have left the EU and we will have an additional £350 million every week that we can give to the NHS.

I know this because I heard Boris, on several occasions, say so.

Dave
 
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Tringa said:
There might have been a lot of lies and incidences of someone being, 'economical with the truth', but I'd like everyone to remember in just seven months we will have left the EU and we will have an additional £350 million every week that we can give to the NHS.

I know this be I heard Boris, on several occasions, say so.

Dave
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Yep, £350,000,000 a week is probably the exact repayments due for the covid mortgage that the government have had to take out.
 
sirch said:
'm sure this thread doesn't need telling but I've been messing with the new toy, fairly impressed, original and 100% crop, which TBH is pretty presentable.
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cambsno said:
Outright lie!!! Can someone who supports the government really defend them on this. It was quite clear that we would not sacrifice standards and this bill means that we can. Granted, we may not when it comes to it, but why have that in if we dont plan to make use of it.

On a plus side, with Starmer being more electable than Corbyn, and with the pain of a boris brexit and the lies, I think Labour will landslide the next election and probably the one after that - sadly we will have gone back so much as a country it will not be a quick, or easy fix!
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Remember Iraq :wave:
 
After the Durdle Door incident and the associated example of how caring some of the British public are - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-52890608

there is this - https://www.ukhillwalking.com/news/2020/06/lockdown_lifting_sees_increase_in_problem_behaviour-72337 -

as another example of what a stupid idea it was to tell the public in England they can travel as far as they want. I have no idea how many people in the Peak District or Cumbria had travelled a long way, but I think allowing unlimited travel also encourages the "do a whatever you want" view.

Dave
 
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Tringa said:
After the Durdle Door incident and the associated example of how caring some of the British public are - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-52890608

there is this - https://www.ukhillwalking.com/news/2020/06/lockdown_lifting_sees_increase_in_problem_behaviour-72337 -

as another example of what a stupid idea it was to tell the public in England they can travel as far as they want. I have know idea how many people in the Peak District or Cumbria had travelled a long way, but I think allowing unlimited travel also encourages the "do a whatever you want" view.

Dave
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Am certainly not defending people but you have to ask the question... if things like public toilets (and facilities that people will use like restaurants) are closed then why are we surprised when we see human waste left for example. Of course people should know better, but we know things like that will happen so either they should have been opened or restrictions put in place.

Its the same problem with councils moaning about rubbish yet not having enough bins/bin collections - you need to make sure people can dispose of rubbish easily as reality shows that not everyone will walk 200m to a bin or take it home with them.
 
cambsno said:
Am certainly not defending people but you have to ask the question... if things like public toilets (and facilities that people will use like restaurants) are closed then why are we surprised when we see human waste left for example. Of course people should know better, but we know things like that will happen so either they should have been opened or restrictions put in place.

Its the same problem with councils moaning about rubbish yet not having enough bins/bin collections - you need to make sure people can dispose of rubbish easily as reality shows that not everyone will walk 200m to a bin or take it home with them.
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But the moronic morons that are going to these places know that the facilities are closed. Surely it makes more sense to go to the Peak District and Lake District, etc, when the pubs, cafes, shops and tourist attractions are open, that way they can put money into the local economy. Unfortunately people are just utterly selfish.



As for the bins, if someone is able to carry a crate of ale and a bag full of sandwiches to a beauty spot, then surely they are more than capable of carrying the empty bottles and wrappers back home with them. After all, after they have consumed the food and drink, the empties are a lot lighter.
 
j crossley said:
But the moronic morons that are going to these places know that the facilities are closed. Surely it makes more sense to go to the Peak District and Lake District, etc, when the pubs, cafes, shops and tourist attractions are open, that way they can put money into the local economy. Unfortunately people are just utterly selfish.



As for the bins, if someone is able to carry a crate of ale and a bag full of sandwiches to a beauty spot, then surely they are more than capable of carrying the empty bottles and wrappers back home with them. After all, after they have consumed the food and drink, the empties are a lot lighter.
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I do not disagree, but the fact is people wont always put rubbish in the bins or not go to beauty spots. Now we can moan all we like about their stupidity etc... but we end up with rubbish, or we can accept not everyone has good morals/standards and do what we can to mitigate (i.e. more bins etc...)
 
I remember as a secondary school governor talking to some students at the school and the subject of dropping litter came up. There were some who felt they were doing a public service by dropping their litter as it kept the council workers employed picking it up......
 
Tringa said:
I have just seen on the Worldometer stats ( https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries ) that barring Andorra, San Marino (which have very small populations) and Belgium(whose population is less than 20% of the UK) the UK has the highest number of deaths per million of population.


Dave
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Ironically, in February and early March we were being told the death toll in Italy and Spain were national tragedies, yet our PM recently said he was "proud of our record on Coronavirus" and he's a hero (to some).
 
Tringa said:
I have just seen on the Worldometer stats ( https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries ) that barring Andorra, San Marino (which have very small populations) and Belgium(whose population is less than 20% of the UK) the UK has the highest number of deaths per million of population.
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The main reason the number of deaths is so high in Belgium is the way they count deaths. While most countries are only counting confirmed deaths in hospitals, Belgium is including all potential deaths in nursing homes even if COVID-19 has not been confirmed as the cause of death. Of Belgium’s registered deaths, 44 percent died in hospital. The majority 54 percent died in a nursing home and only in 7.8 percent of those cases was COVID-19 confirmed as the cause. Experts argue Belgium’s approach is more transparent, and that other countries are underreporting the total numbers of deaths. IE: if the UK used this method of counting the number of deaths would be around 50,000.
 
broc said:
I remember as a secondary school governor talking to some students at the school and the subject of dropping litter came up. There were some who felt they were doing a public service by dropping their litter as it kept the council workers employed picking it up......
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Researchers found the same attitude at Wits (University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg) a few years ago. Students dropped litter wherever they felt like it, and said it created work for the cleaning staff and kept them in jobs.
 
So, lots of condemnation of those going to the beach etc... but naff all about the protests in London today where people were far closer together based on the pics I saw...
 
Remember when we were seeing scenes like this from Iran?

I hope he makes a speedy recovery, and the Government rethinks the return to full sittings.

View: https://BANNED/SkyNews/status/1268282573110812672
 
cambsno said:
So, lots of condemnation of those going to the beach etc... but naff all about the protests in London today where people were far closer together based on the pics I saw...
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I fear for the people involved in these protests everywhere - high proportions of black and ethnic minority demonstrators, statistically vulnerable groups.
 
ancient_mariner said:
An aerosol is a very fine suspension of a liquid in a gas - tiny droplets that can hang in the air and therefore travel long distances. I've heard contradictory comments about how the virus spreads, but the main view seems to be that it requires 'droplets' (presumably larger droplets than in aerosols) produced when someone speaks or coughs, rather than the smaller particles of an aerosol that persist for long periods in the air. Flu, for example, is infectious in an aerosol.

The danger is simply that if someone coughs out infectious droplets in an enclosed space then those also occupying that space with them may receive an infectious dose. Generally speaking, for an infection to take hold you need to exceed a certain dose or challenge level, though the dose required may vary between individuals. So where someone is excreting virus into the environment, you may well pass through the infectious cloud as you walk by, but because exposure is brief your dose is too low to permit an infection to take hold. If you sit by the same person on a bus for a 30min journey then it's much more likely that you'll receive enough of a dose to become infected. Also aerosols can travel a long way indoors, carried by air currents.

The key thing here isn't just exposure, but dose. Staying 2M from an infected person reduces the likelyhood of infection because if they are producing substantial droplets containing virus, those droplets are much more likely to sink to the floor before they reach you, so the dose you receive will be small if any at all.

Hope that's useful.
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This came up again on TwIV at the weekend. They were pretty sceptical about the Perspective in Science I linked to above ( https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/06/02/science.abc6197.1.full ) that focuses on the possibility of aerosol transmission, since hard evidence is limited (though of course difficult to gather). But if it is a significant route of transmission, then 2 metre social distancing may well be inadequate indoors. It's worth noting that Christian Drosten, co-discoverer of SARS-CoV(-1) and probably Europe's most prominent coronavirus expert, has gone out on a limb about this:

"When I sum it all up, my gut feeling is that almost half of the transmission is aerosol, almost half of the transmission is droplet, and perhaps ten percent of transmission is smear or contact infection."

https://thegermanyeye.com/coronavirus-probably-also-contagious-via-air-3815
 
Retune said:
I fear for the people involved in these protests everywhere - high proportions of black and ethnic minority demonstrators, statistically vulnerable groups.
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Was that proven to be because of race (i.e. something genetic) or because BAME are more likely to do jobs that are higher risk from catching covid like bus drivers, hospital workers etc... and the fact that London for example was hit hardest with infections and has higher proportion of BAME?
 
I don't think there's anything definitive yet. It's hard to untangle social factors, existing health conditions and any relevant genetics. One early analysis claimed there was a 4-fold increased risk of dying in black people in the UK, but this dropped to 2-fold when adjusted for health, socioeconomic status, and region, etc.
 
I'm not confident that all countries are reporting Covid19 cases and deaths accurately and I don't know the science behind our current policy on Covid19 but the relaxation of the rules just seems wrong when our death rate per capita is so large and the UK has over 10% of all the reported deaths worldwide.

Dave
 
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