These young girls travelling to Syria

dejongj said:
I'd be devastated if my child got written off like many on here seem to do.
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hopefully you've raised your child so that they dn't see terrorists as heroes - if you didnt and they do, then you reap what you sow
 
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ST4 said:
What about child soldiers you see in civil wars in African countries? Gun yielding maniacs/murders don't just become murderers because they are 18 or over.

Sypathisers with murders are bad, and 15yo is easily old enough to know right and wrong. These girls have had a good start in life, good families, good education, whats the matter with them?
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Some of them are not as tall as the AK47's they have slung around their necks.
 
mickledore said:
What will happen in 9 months time?
Will they come rushing home apologising for the error of their ways? Oh, and while I'm here, could you please deliver my baby, then I'll want child allowance, and every benefit known to man. Don't forget I have a husband and he must be allowed into the country under European rules about the right to family life.
Think it won't happen? Don't be too sure once the civil lib brigade get involved.
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Kittens - don't forget to mention kittens if you're ramping up your indignity levels.

Should they be proven to have taken part or supported, then they can and no doubt will be prosecuted as have others who have seen the errors of their ways and returned. Until their citizenship is revoked (and I don't think there's a process for that) then they remain UK citizens and are subject to our laws.

At which point they can be used for positive propaganda against others doing the same, rather than simply prove they were right in their mistaken views that the UK just has hatred and mistrust 'of their type'.

Who better for other teenagers to hear from?
 
ST4 said:
What about child soldiers you see in civil wars in African countries? Gun yielding maniacs/murders don't just become murderers because they are 18 or over.
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Not just as simple as that Steve. If the families of these child soldiers or the children themselves say no, then the whole family is butchered. Which option would you choose? Life is relatively cheap in certain parts of the world, we should not expect all peoples to be the same.

Saying that, and by Christ does this hurt, I actually agree with you that these three young adults have made a choice, they live with it and we do NOT allow them back here under any circumstances. They went entirely of their own free will, [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER] to them, leave them there.
 
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I think you have to be convicted of treason in your absence to have your citzenship revoked - didnt it happen to philby and co who were spying for the russians back in the 50s/6os

n the latter point clemency because of their age and/or the potential use a propoganda weapon, is the same thing as not prosecuting them - it means we do prosecute, find guilty, but then show mercy in the sentencing phase
 
fracster said:
Not just as simple as that Steve. If the families of these child soldiers or the children themselves say no, then the whole family is butchered. Which option would you choose? Life is relatively cheap in certain parts of the world, we should not expect all peoples to be the same.
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There is that....

I put the question, is there any way ISIS targeted those girls and said if they didnt go, their families would get it. ISIS are a deplorable organisation.

fracster said:
Saying that, and by Christ does this hurt, I actually agree with you that these three young adults have made a choice, they live with it and we do NOT allow them back here under any circumstances. They went entirely of their own free will, b****x to them, leave them there.
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It hurts me more than you agree with me...
 
big soft moose said:
hopefully you've raised your child so that they dn't see terrorists as heroes - if you didnt and they do, then you reap what you sow
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50% nature 50% nurture.

I don't see how and why the parents are responsible, impressions (and it is that) that they are normal hard working people who've done the best for their kids.

Blaming the parents, easy way out IMHO.
 
Ah it can be done.

Under section 40 of the British Nationality Act 1981 (as amended), an order to deprive a person of their British citizenship can be made if the Home Secretary is satisfied that:
  • it would be conducive to the public good to deprive the person of their British citizenship status and to do so would not render them stateless; or
  • the person obtained their citizenship status through naturalisation, and it would be conducive to the public good to deprive them of their status because they have engaged in conduct “seriously prejudicial” to the UK’s vital interests, and the Home Secretary has reasonable grounds to believe that they could acquire another nationality; or
  • the person acquired their citizenship status through naturalisation or registration, and it was obtained by means of fraud, false representation or concealment of any material fact.
From the UK briefing papers: www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn06820.pdf
 
ST4 said:
There is that....

I put the question, is there any way ISIS targeted those girls and said if they didnt go, their families would get it. ISIS are a deplorable organisation.
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That is a fair point Steve. I suppose it is possible, though highly unlikely, I would imagine there would be others far more useful to the cause that would be coerced first. Perhaps a friendly MI6 or Mossad agent would know.



ST4 said:
It hurts me more than you agree with me...
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I do agree with you sometimes, just not very often.............;)
 
fracster said:
That is a fair point Steve. I suppose it is possible, though highly unlikely, I would imagine there would be others far more useful to the cause that would be coerced first. Perhaps a friendly MI6 or Mossad agent would know.
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I am not disagreeing, I would concede its unlikely, but a possibility to rule out.

Girls could have come across them on social media, got talking and lured in further, then wanted out and a threat given to them (death of family) if they tried to get out.

It happens. Unlikely but not implausible. Duress is the word I am looking for.
 
ST4 said:
I am not disagreeing, I would concede its unlikely, but a possibility to rule out.

Girls could have come across them on social media, got talking and lured in further, then wanted out and a threat given to them (death of family) if they tried to get out.

It happens. Unlikely but not implausible. Duress is the word I am looking for.
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Could be the case, but until all the facts are known, nobody really knows and we are all surmising. But,hey, what would a OOF thread on TP be without that...............:D
 
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big soft moose said:
hopefully you've raised your child so that they dn't see terrorists as heroes - if you didnt and they do, then you reap what you sow
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Its the word terrorists,if say by a slim chance say IS invaded and took over this country,anyone who stood up to them would in their eyes be seen as an terrorists,same as the any resistance fighter in WWII who stood up to the Nazi was seen as a terrorists.

Its never as black & white as everybody makes out :(
 
simonblue said:
Its the word terrorists,if say by a slim chance say IS invaded and took over this country,anyone who stood up to them would in their eyes be seen as an terrorists,same as the any resistance fighter in WWII who stood up to the Nazi was seen as a terrorists.

Its never as black & white as everybody makes out :(
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its black and white if you don't try to see it from both sides we're british, therefore ISIS are terrorists ad the french resistance were not, simples

okay so some peasant in syria might see it differently but who gives a good f***
 
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arclight said:
Exactly ............. the Hitler Youth were "only children", as some would describe them, and yet they fired weapons and killed allied troops. They are enemies.
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But that was war,if your ever faces with a child solider who intend is to kill you,sometime you have no choice,but after the surrender of the the German forces we didn't suddenly round up every body who was in the Hitler Youth and try them.
 
simonblue said:
But that was war,if your ever faces with a child solider who intend is to kill you,sometime you have no choice,but after the surrender of the the German forces we didn't suddenly round up every body who was in the Hitler Youth and try them.
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Germany surrendered. They could be reasoned with (after the allies showed them what was what). People who blow up themselves to kill others cannot be.
 
big soft moose said:
its black and white if you don't try to see it from both sides we're british, therefore ISIS are terrorists ad the french resistance were not, simples

okay so some peasant in syria might see it differently but who gives a good f***
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And that's the problem with the world,we don't give a f***,and hatred grow on all sides till we end up in wars,then afterward we start to count the cost and say it should never happen again.
As somebody wrote in an song.

"Mans blind indifference to his fellow man,whole generations are bunched and dammed"

:(
 
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simonblue said:
And that's the problem with the world,we don't give a f***,and hatred grow on all sides till we end up in wars,then afterward we start to count the cost and say it should never happen again.
As somebody wrote in an song.

"Mans blind indifference to his fellow man,whole generations are bunched and dammed"

:(
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Who's cutting off who's head and who's calling who infidels and who's blowing up who?
 
ST4 said:
Who's cutting off who's head and who's calling who infidels and who's blowing up who?
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Calm down Steve, you`ll be in the s***house again.
 
simonblue said:
And that's the problem with the world,we don't give a f***,and hatred grow on all sides till we end up in wars,then afterward we start to count the cost and say it should never happen again.
As somebody wrote in an song.

"Mans blind indifference to his fellow man,whole generations are bunched and dammed"

:(
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no the problem with the world is too many people who think the answer is to have a group hug and love your neighbour when the enemy is busy burning people alive and cutting their heads off.

if you meet a rabid wolf you don't try and reason with it, or explain why its not its falt - you shoot it in order to protect yourself.

so yes ISIS undoubtedly see themselves as the good guys and the west as the enemy , but thats their perception, not ours
 
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ST4 said:
Just a pithy observation....edit - the hatred of fellow man doesn't seem to be on the western side.
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Considering some of the comments and the suggestion of abandonment regarding these teenagers I say that with regret I disagree.
 
dejongj said:
Considering some of the comments and the suggestion of abandonment regarding these teenagers I say that with regret I disagree.
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'abandonment' of these teenagers is actually what they themselves have chosen - and appear to want. They've gone voluntarily and of their own free will to join a terrorist organisation overseas
 
dejongj said:
Considering some of the comments and the suggestion of abandonment regarding these teenagers I say that with regret I disagree.
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Yes, but lets take a step back. A 15yo educated person in the western world is capable of telling right from wrong, good from evil. They are old enough to take resposiibility for their actions, they are above the age of criminal responsibility.

They leave the UK, their family and head to a country to join a terrorist organisation for whatever reason. They've disenfranchised themselves from the country they were born into, their family etc of their own voliation, and if not haven't alerted authorities to they've been co-erced into going. Young people get lambasted for supporting the EDL, etc, but ISIS are as bad, if not worse. What's the difference.

Being 15 is great, getting boozed up with your mates, smoking, joy riding, all part of misdemeanour of youths. Joining terrorist organisations....not so.
 
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big soft moose said:
no the problem with the world is too many people who think the answer is to have a group hug and love your neighbour when the enemy is busy burning people alive and cutting their heads off.

if you meet a rabid wolf you don't try and reason with it, or explain why its not its falt - you shoot it in order to protect yourself.

so yes ISIS undoubtedly see themselves as the good guys and the west as the enemy , but thats their perception, not ours
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Well i suggest Pete you go sign up,because at the end of the day some poor b****r is going to have to go in their and dig them out one by one,our you up for it.
 
ST4 said:
Where's @BRASH when you need him?
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I'm here. I've deliberately stayed out of this one as I have certain strong views on this some may find offensive.
 
ST4 said:
Just a pithy observation....edit - the hatred of fellow man doesn't seem to be on the western side.
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Well, not strictly true Steve, particularly if you take into account our invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq - hundreds of thousands killed, millions displaced, both countries now in complete chaos. Then you have our involvement in Libya (where ISIL are now very strong) where we bombed Ghadaffi out and left the country in chaos. Then Syria, where we openly backed the "rebels" (including Al Qaeda and ISIL) against Assad.
If you look at all this through the eyes of someone living in those countries, then I think you would see things differently.
 
andy700 said:
Well, not strictly true Steve, particularly if you take into account our invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq - hundreds of thousands killed, millions displaced, both countries now in complete chaos. Then you have our involvement in Libya (where ISIL are now very strong) where we bombed Ghadaffi out and left the country in chaos. Then Syria, where we openly backed the "rebels" (including Al Qaeda and ISIL) against Assad.
If you look at all this through the eyes of someone living in those countries, then I think you would see things differently.
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Yes. But these girls aren't from here, they are from Britain....;) born and bred ;)
 
simonblue said:
But that was war,if your ever faces with a child solider who intend is to kill you,sometime you have no choice,but after the surrender of the the German forces we didn't suddenly round up every body who was in the Hitler Youth and try them.
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Very inaccurate ...... The HY originated from organisations dating back to 1922. From 1933 it was a paramilitary (and the sole youth) organisation in Germany.
By 1930 it had 25,000 members aged from 14 to 18 plus a junior branch with boys and girls from age 10. The HY was seen as a stepping stone into the SS and to provide future Nazi party leaders. Delightful young children - pure as the driven slush.
 
These girls shouldn't be allowed back unless they are going to prison for treason.

If they are let back in and everyone goes oooh poor things, lets not do anything and get them to talk to other teenagers about how bad IS are will just send out a message that we are still a soft touch, go abroad, join a terrorist organisation and if you don't like it just come back and all will be forgiven as long as you say it was a bad experience.

Unless of course they have been off on a jaunt to Ibiza for a couple of weeks of booze and sex without their parents knowing :)
 
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simonblue said:
Well i suggest Pete you go sign up,because at the end of the day some poor b****r is going to have to go in their and dig them out one by one,our you up for it.
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Ive already taken the queens shilling thanks - i'm about 20 years too old now, but if i were in my 20s again i'd be up for going to fight (thats what soldiers do)
 
cowboy said:
Unless of course they have been off on a jaunt to Ibiza for a couple of weeks of booze and sex without their parents knowing :)
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that would be tremendously funny, if all the hey we're off to join IS was a smokes screen and they are actually having it large, drinking, taking recreational drugs, and having casual sex in ibiza :ROFLMAO:
 
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