1. mark.roper

    mark.roper

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    Hi all, not been around here long but already see the wealth of experience on this forum so figured I might avail myself of it ...

    Bought a Nikon D3300 last year, immediately swapped the 18-55 kit lens for a 18-200 to give me a more versatile "everyday" lens, also bought a big Sigma 150-600 C for my primary hobby, motorsports photography (figuring the Sigma gave me the most "bang for buck" at the time), and over the last few months I've been pondering where I go next.

    I bought a cheap body because I wanted to prove to myself I needed "feature X" before I spent £100's on something I didn't really need. For example the D3300 shoots at 5fps, something I figured would be important for motorsports, whereas the next model up (at the time), the D7200, shoots at 6fps, but was £500 more. Did I really want to spend £500 on 1 extra fps? Of course I didn't do my research properly otherwise I'd have known the D3300 only has a tiny buffer compared to the D7200!

    So I started looking at my options. Upgrade the body to a D7200 / D7500 / D500? Get myself a 70-200 f2.8 so-called "pro" sports lens as I've decided the 18-200 doesn't really cut it for motorsports, and the Sigma is sometimes too big (should of gone for the 100 - 400 in hindsight). Get myself a 24-70 f2.8 because I shoot oval track racing as well as circuit and need something even closer than the 70-200?

    But then as I added this up I found myself not only £1,000's out of pocket, but with several KG's extra weight to carry around also, and I'm already finding I leave the Sigma behind sometimes as a foot long 2KG lump is not something you chuck in your bag on the off chance you might use it.

    So then I saw the Olympus E-M1 Mk2, a top of the range Micro 4/3rds camera that seems to tick all the boxes for me: super fast, light, several top quality (small and light) lenses etc., and here was me thinking I'd go FF from APS-C, not the other way (smaller sensor rather than bigger).

    Am I mad?

    After a year shooting with my D3300 here's what I've learned :-
    • Frame-rate - I need more than 5fps and I need to be able to shoot for more than a second or 2 before the buffer fills.
    • Bulk / weight - I have a shoulder bag and a back-pack, the shoulder bag is comfortable to carry around, the back-pack isn't, I'm 55, I don't want to carry a stone in weight of camera gear on my back.
    • I've shot 1,000's of images in a year, only 1% are are at > ISO3200, so pretty sure the supposed low light inadequacies of M4/3 don't matter.
    • I do this as a hobby, I don't do huge prints, I post on social media, I do some artwork for my son who races on short ovals, I don't need ultra-mega-pro quality images.
    • I think I can afford to spend £3k, and Wex will give me £900 for my current gear (I have a prime lens as well I would no longer need).
    Am I mad? Is this a viable way to go?

    Not sure if I'm looking for advice or confirmation, but either way, I've found this forum never slow to come forward with opinions!
     
  2. wave01

    wave01

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    I would look at renting the kit you want to buy. Give it a good try
     
  3. LojikDub

    LojikDub

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    No you are not mad this is exactly the journey I took (except I bought an EM1.1 after my D3300).

    For me I very quickly outgrew the D3300, it was missing features which I now couldn't live without:
    - EVF (see your exposure before you shoot the picture)
    - bracketing
    - live histogram
    - tilt screen
    - image stabilisation

    In practice the M43 sensor is fine for my needs, printing up to 16x20. In fact I have even had a 100x75 canvas made up which looks great, although you'll need to lower the DPI and upscale the image a bit for that.

    On the negatives, as you've mentioned high ISO performance is not great and it gets very noisy past 3200. Also bokeh isn't as easy to come by as APSC but get a 45mm f1.8 and you will get some decent blur.

    What I would say is have a look into the EM1.1 instead of the 1.2 as they can be had for under £400 now which is an absolute steal, and it should fulfil your needs IMO.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
  4. mark.roper

    mark.roper

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    Indeed, but can't find anyone who rents the EM1.2.

    Not worried about bokeh, I don't do portraits / weddings and never felt I needed more bokeh in the images I've already shot at f5.6 (as that's the widest my current lenses go).

    Also, research suggests the EM1.2 with its on-sensor PDAF is significantly better for my intended use than the EM1.1, plus I figure 2/3rds of what I'm proposing to spend is on the lenses, why skimp on the body?
     
  5. LojikDub

    LojikDub

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    Yep fair point, if you can spend the extra you'll get a much better camera, personally I'm a cheapskate :p
     
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  6. the black fox

    the black fox

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    I have just done the swop from a canon 1d3 and sigma 150-600 sport (weight around 6+kg) to a Panasonic g80 and 12-60 lens plus a leica 100-400 (weight -1.5kg) this has obviously made a difference to ease of use and inbuilt body and lens 5 axis is does make a difference ,though at full length it still needs help imho especially for moving targets ,the camera is surprisingly fast to focus and nearly up to dslr speed .but there is still some shutter lag noticeable .but after 2 weeks I am getting some reasonable bird in flight shots . my advise would be get the best lens possible and as for cameras the cheapest option is the Panasonic G80 and then either the Panasonic g9 or the olympus om-d mk2 . . be aware that although most camera lens combos will work crossing brands over loses some functions run the i.s systems .
    also be aware that coming from the kit you have i.e Nikon you will find theres a very steep learning curve with the menu systems and function buttons so you need to factor in time to learn what does what .I have posted quiet a lot of sample pics in the Panasonic thread as have others but basically its a sound move.
    you also bring up iso values the way that the m4/3 systems work you will find that your shooting at lower i.s.o values anyway ,though noise can be a problem so good editing skills and the right software help enormously

    if theres a branch of London camera exchange nearby they will often let you take your own card in and shoot with one of there stock cameras and lenses
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
  7. mark.roper

    mark.roper

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    Thanks Jeff, I wasn't thinking of skimping on anything if I do this, I'd go for the 12-40 f2.8 and 40-150 f2.8 PRO lenses, and yes appreciate it'll be a big learning curve!

    Hadn't thought of taking my cards in to take some shots with, I imagine Wex (my local store) would do the same.
     
  8. GTG

    GTG

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    No not mad. A guy I used to watch on youtube called Dom Bower did this. He is full time photographer I believe and went from the top Nikon dslr gear to Panasonic and Olympus m3/4.

    He cant say enough good stuff and rambles on about how they are better in every way ( except the obvious like iso performance )
     
  9. snerkler

    snerkler

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    Olympus do a try it and see thing where you can try equipment for free before you buy, just head to their website for more details.
     
  10. Dave1

    Dave1

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    You can "test drive" one under the Olympus "test and wow" scheme.

    https://wow.olympus.eu/
     
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  11. sirch

    sirch Official Forum Numpty 2015

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    Just bear in mind that you get more DoF from a smaller sensor, so MFT f2.8 is the same depth-of-field as f5.6 full frame , your current crop senor is somewhere in between. It cuts both ways, your can shoot wider and lower ISO on MFT and still get a decent amount of DoF. That said, it sounds like you are not bothered about shallow DoF (even though it might be good for shots in the pits) and as has been said there are good fast primes for MFT that will give shallow DoF if/when you feel the need.
     
  12. mark.roper

    mark.roper

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    Yeah, just been looking at that, Watford is closest to me, although 2 hours away, might give that a go. :)

    edit: in reply to Dave and Snerkler !
     
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  13. snerkler

    snerkler

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    Just another thought. I assume you're considering something like the EM1-II and 40-150mm f2.8 pro which would set you back just over £2k if you bought used. You could also look at something like the D750 and 70-300mm G VR which would set you back circa £1300 used. In terms of reach both offer the same, and in terms of DOF both offer the same at the long end, with the Nikon slightly shallower at the wide end. Yes the Olympus lens lets in more light, but the D750's ISO handling will more than make up. The difference in weight between the two setups is only a couple of hundred grams.

    I'm lucky enough to run two systems, the EM1 and D850 (up until recently was the D750). I love both systems, but there's no questions that if I wanted the best IQ I would use the Nikon. The Olympus isn't that far behind though. The D750 'only' shoots at 6.5fps and buffer is only about 12-15 shots in 14 bit RAW. However, use 12 bit RAW and you get 25 shot buffer which IMO is more than enough. Those that know me know I'm picky with this stuff and I am yet to see a difference between 12 bit and 14 bit in day to day shooting. 6.5fps doesn't sound much quicker than 5fps, but if you put both side by side there's quite a difference. For motorsport I found 6.5 fps more than enough.

    I'm not trying to dissuade you from Olympus, it's a cracking system capable of good results. I was just point out that there are other options that could be much cheaper depending on the lenses etc you choose. You could also keep your 150-600mm for wildlife if you do this too.
     
  14. the black fox

    the black fox

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    Well I have gone from a great big heavy lump ,plus backpack with lenses and extras to just one lightweight camera and lens that covers everything from distant birds to close ups of insects without changing lenses ,I can shoot most stuff handheld ,but I have just ordered a Sirui c/f monopod for the extra bit of confidence getting the focus point spot on ,due to my advancing years more than the camera ..lens combo ,I do miss some things that a DSlr had .but I have made my choice and have to learn it now.
    I also have a canon m.3 and a couple of lenses and if the need takes me I can borrow the wife’s 7d and 400 lens ,but at the moment I’m happy enough with the m4/3
     
  15. mark.roper

    mark.roper

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    Yeah, I've been round the houses on this quite a bit over the last several weeks, I did buy the Sigma with a thought to doing some wildlife photography but I just haven't, and not sure I ever will. If I stick with Nikon I can see the Sigma only coming out as and when I know for sure I'm going to use it and have pre-planned exactly how and where (which to fair I do anyway when I go to Snetterton etc.). With the EM1.2 I can put the 40-150 f2.8 (+ 1.4 TC) in my shoulder bag even if I don't think I'll use them.

    I just feel if I stuck with Nikon I'd be making compromises somewhere, like a 70-300 f5.6 instead of a 70-200 f2.8 to keep the weight down etc.
     
  16. Bobsyeruncle

    Bobsyeruncle

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    I sold my Nikon D7000 and Sigma 150-600 and bought a Panasonic G80 and 100-400 lens.
    I also have the 12-60mm lens.
    I shoot a lot of wildlife, birds etc and I am loving the new gear.
    Great results and so much easier/lighter to carry.
     
  17. snerkler

    snerkler

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    Obviously we all have different wants and needs. But is the D750 and 70-300mm a compromise over an EM1-II and 40-150mm f2.8?
     
  18. GaryLaird

    GaryLaird

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    Maybe have a look at the Panasonic G9 as well. Similar spec to the Oly with a higher res viewfinder and top LCD. It's about 100g heavier but that's not much compared to what your carrying now
     
  19. Eloise

    Eloise

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    With respect, that sounds like you are making justifications for the Olympus which you have already in your heart decided you want.

    Just (as I often comment) make sure you can live with the EVF... it’s personal but I couldn’t.
     
  20. Cagey75

    Cagey75

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    The EVF on my G80 is better than the one I had on my XT-1, and that was way better to use than the OVF on my D800E - once you actually use a decent EVF for a while it's very hard go back.
     
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  21. Chipper

    Chipper

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    I run two systems; Canon FF x 2 and Oly EM1 Mk2. Check out Mike Inkley who runs a sports agency and is an Olympus ambassador. He does motorsport. He was badly injured in an accident and could no longer use heavy FF kit. He traded it all in at Mifsuds and had to learn the new system in short time. His steep learning curve was, he believes, facilitated by necessity. I haven’t done this so I am not yet automatic with my Olympus kit, people moan about the menus - they are different but this doesn’t make them rubbish. I love it! Just acquired recently the 40-150 f2.8 in a private sale here in mint condition - and think I am going to love that too. Try the Test and Wow. You might love it in your hands or loathe it... I went to the Photography show in 2017thinking I would be getting a Fuji or a Sony and disliked them in my hands - the lenses also seemed very heavy; I knew as soon as I picked it up that I was going to go and sign up for the Olympus WOW.
     
  22. snerkler

    snerkler

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    I don’t understand the problem with Olympus menus tbh, never had any issue with them myself. Sony on the other hand....... ;)
     
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  23. Nawty

    Nawty

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    @damianmkv spent ages trying to use an EM1i for motorsport and then tried the EM1ii, in the end he swapped to a Nikon D500 as the EM1ii was new and very expensive at the time.

    My view, having owned both is that if you really want m43 for moving things and want a high keeper rate then it must be the EM1ii, the AF has got a bit better since firmware 2 too. The EM1i is workable (I got some cracking shots in Alaska) but requires some skill and luck.

    But still, don't expect D750 / D500 AF abilities and that said I don't miss my FF Nikon kit at all (except maybe my D700 for Nostalgia reasons).
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2018
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  24. damianmkv

    damianmkv Uh oh, a fruit basket!

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    Yes, the d500 makes motorsport easier. That said, both versions of the e-m1 are capable, obviously the mk2 more-so.

    For me, it cost nothing to change to the d500 because of the m43 gear I had. Had I change to the 1.2, it would have cost me an extra £1000.

    I still miss the size of m43 compared to Nikon and I don’t even have any long, heavy lenses. Pros and cons to both systems as you know

    But I’m happy with my decision..
     
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  25. the black fox

    the black fox

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    I though a couple of weeks ago that I would be saying goodbye to small birds in flight with the G80 and Leica 100-400 ,yes it’s a hard combo to master but yesterday I got two pin sharp shots of swallows in flight ,hand held to so one happy bunny here
     
  26. Eloise

    Eloise

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    Sorry but I find that a dogmatic view... I’m p****ed off at the number of times I’ve effectively been told I’m wrong for preferring an OVF and finding EVFs poor substitute. While by no means have I tried all Mirrorless cameras, I suspect there is something about my eyesight as I can’t believe what I see using EVFs such as in the newest Sonys, etc is accepted by the majority of people.
     
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  27. woof woof

    woof woof

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    No one is saying you're wrong. People are just putting their own views forward, just like you do.

    And my own view is that I'm another convert :D I've been using cameras since I was 10 (now 57) and mirrorless since the GF1 came out (2009?) and I'd hate to go back to an optical system. It may be at least partly because I spent my working life with screens and displays of one sort or another and I can understand how some like you dislike EVF's.
     
  28. snerkler

    snerkler

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    For you maybe :p

    EVF's I've used are Sony A77, A77-II, Olympus EM10, EM5-II, EM1, Fuji XT1, XT10, Sony A7, Sony A7ii, Sony A7Riii. The Sony A7riii is probably the best of that lot imo, but I can't say that I prefer it over the OVF of my D850. Yes the WYSIWYG can be handy, yes the live histogram can be handy, and yes I see a lot of positives for the EVF. However, I still prefer looking through a good OVF (y)
     
  29. lugworm

    lugworm

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    I'm going the other way....m43 to nikon. I'm struggling with the small size of my em10mk2, the switches and buttons are just too dinky for my sausage fingers. I will miss the comparative light weight though.
     
  30. GreenNinja67

    GreenNinja67

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    Went from Canon & Nikon to Olympus EM5MK2.

    No complaints
     
  31. snerkler

    snerkler

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    Maybe try the EM1? I found the EM10 too small but find the EM1 very good.
     
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  32. lugworm

    lugworm

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    That might work, somwhere in between the two sizes. And I can keep my lenses.
     
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  33. HoppyUK

    HoppyUK

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    But the viewfinder isn't the final image, and while EVFs are getting better all the time, optical viewfinders are by no means perfect either.

    The viewfinder is an 'aid' for framing, focus, timing etc, and EVFs certainly have a big advantage with a wide range of very handy information overlays. Like a live histogram, blinkies and maybe zebras too - not really possible with optical - accurate depth-of-field preview etc etc. It's a good and useful list, and all customisable.
     
  34. desf

    desf

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    Agreed. I had to have the grip to make the em10 useable. Love the size of the lenses but found the bodies a bit fiddly. Maybe the em1 would be better.
     
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  35. Cagey75

    Cagey75

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    That's your own personal drama, I personally don't give a fiddler's what you prefer. For me, the 'wysiwyg', as snerkler says, is a great bonus and these days the better evf systems are crystal clear, if you didn't know better they could easily pass for OVF only with more info. People considering a switch need to know the benefits as much as the 'cons'. I think you just like arguing for the sake of it tbh, you seem to take everything personally. I only quoted you because you were warning someone against evf without any reasoning.

    I was the same, after initially buying an em5 to test M43 out. The evf on that was poor, if anyone was comparing that one I could understand - also I found the body really lacking grip, it felt 'slippery' to me and my fingers would cramp a bit with extended use. But after trying the G80 it was a completely different ball game. It's more comfortable than my Fuji XT-1 and the EVF is better, this is the type of EVF I'm comparing, crystal clear, I actually checked up to see was it a hybrid of some kind after trying it for the first time. Only when you use slow shutter speeds does the fact it is an EVF really show, panasonic seem to think we need blur to display in real time until you hold steady. This is the only instance where an OVF is better IMO

    Obviously I speak for myself first and foremost. It's very much a personal preference, seeing someone warn against one or the other though does my head in. THAT is forcing an opinion.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2018
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  36. srhmoto

    srhmoto

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    I also went from Canon 1 series DSLRs to m4/3 and have shot with the m4/3 format for a lot of years (aside from a brief flirtation with a Pentax K3). My main camera is currently a G9, but I also have a GX8.

    I’ll start by saying that every camera system out there is a compromise at one level or another. My m4/3 kit certainly has a number of them. However, it is the best all round system I personally have ever used. The IQ is superb for my uses, and both my G9 and GX8 produce superb prints at 16x12 which once matted and framed is the biggest I would want to hang at home. It might not have the dynamic range of a FF camera, so I use filters and / or bracket and exposure blend. I iseldom shoot above ISO1600, and the noise is very well controlled up to (and a little beyond) that point. With the G9 (and Em-1 mk II) m4/3 is getting there with AF-C, although there are cheaper APS-C cameras that will do this better. In fact, if motorsport is the main thing you want to shoot, my honest advice would be to keep your Nikon gear. M4/3 can definitely shoot motorsport very successfully, but you’ll have to work harder and accept your keeper rate will be lower. I still almost prefer to shoot motorsport the old skool way ie pre-focus and manual with my m4/3 gear. Here the EVF and focus peaking come into their own - magnified view in the EVF makes accurate focusing a doddle, and focus peaking makes it easy to see when your subject has entered the plane of focus.

    The lens selection for m4/3 is fantastic, with high quality zooms and primes available across a wide price range. I shoot with a range of Panasonic and Olympus lenses, and they are without a doubt the best quality glass I’ve ever had the pleasure of owning and using. I also love the fact I can adapt just about any lens ever made to fit the system. Shooting shallow depth of field is definitely possible, but as has been said already, most times I find the extra depth of field from the smaller sensor much, much more useful.

    As a (relatively) lightweight and small system, I find m4/3 hard to beat. As I can only afford to have one system to shoot family days out, motorsport, landscapes and anything thing else you can think of while juggling all the gubbins that comes with a young family, it is just superb. If the OP is buying specifically for motorsport, then in my opinion there are better systems out there if you can accept the compromise of size and weight.

    Only you can know what compromises you’re really willing to accept.

    Simon.
     
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  37. Eloise

    Eloise

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    Actually yes people do say I’m wrong... you have said I’m wrong in the past, and in essence @Cagey75 is saying I am wrong to prefer an EVF. Edit: okay perhaps not said I’m wrong for perferring an OVF, but have told me I’m wrong for stating it when people are asking about cameras.

    Intellectually I know all the benefits an EVF have, I same even see the benefits in testing. But I do NOT like them. All I ever say is that people leaping onto the Mirrorless bandwagon should assess for themselves if they prefer them as I can’t be the only one with eyesight that disagrees with EVFs. Down the line there may be an EVF I do like and find comfortable to use, that’s my whole point, CURRENTLY they are (for me) a compromise that for my main camera I’m not willing to take.

    I don’t think you’re story is relevant in why you like Mirrorless and EVF and I don’t as excepting age (I’m a youthful 42 in comparison) your “life story” could be mine.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2018
  38. SsSsSsSsSnake

    SsSsSsSsSnake

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    i like just about everything about mirrorless but personally prefer an OVF,my ideal would be an OVF with all the benefits of an EVF.guess thats not going to happen?
     
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  39. Eloise

    Eloise

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    Then don’t make statements such as “once you actually use a decent EVF for a while it's very hard go back.” as if they were universal truths when they aren’t.

    To be rude about it, I wasn’t addressing you when I suggested the OP should check they can live with an EVF. Intellectually I know the benefits (‘wysiwyg’, etc), I personally just can’t live with them... you can that’s great, but if you aren’t trying to “correct” me, then why respond when I suggest I (and yes it’s personal) say I have a problem wit them.

    Yes, you were telling me my personal experience which I was passing on because it’s personal experience and if people only listen to “EVF is great without any flaws” then the conversation is rather one sided.

    Anyway... I stand by my comment. Make sure you try using whatever camera you choose because you might (like me) have issue with the EVF, even though 99% of people don’t.
     
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  40. Eloise

    Eloise

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    Yes but if you get a headache using the EVF (and yes that’s a “personal drama” as it was so rudely described elsewhere), final image or not a OVF is better (or perhaps I should say a better compromise)

    Why can Mirrorless evangelists just not accept that not everyone likes or finds EVFs as comfortable use as they do. Future models may be different and I will admit to not trying absolutely every camera there is.

    Of course perhaps if I actually spent £3k plus to replace my system I would find I liked it - if anyone wants to give me a Sony A7R III and a set of lenses I promise to give it a fair shot... :)

    Please understand (and every comment to me in this thread understand) I’m not arguing for the sake of arguing, I’m not arguing because I thing DSLR is the pinnacle and nothing should surpass that, I’m not arguing for any other reason than I think my comments are just as valid as everyone who thinks a EVF is crystal clear perfection or indistinguishable from an OVF. For you likely it is... for me (and probably others I don’t think I’m that unique) it isn’t.

    PS to all of the above, when I get a chance I’ll check out the latest Panasonics and will see how I get on with their EVFs.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2018
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