Thinking of switching system - M4/3?

[Cagey75]

Then don’t make statements such as “once you actually use a decent EVF for a while it's very hard go back.” as if they were universal truths when they aren’t.

To be rude about it, I wasn’t addressing you when I suggested the OP should check they can live with an EVF. Intellectually I know the benefits (‘wysiwyg’, etc), I personally just can’t live with them... you can that’s great, but if you aren’t trying to “correct” me, then why respond when I suggest I (and yes it’s personal) say I have a problem wit them.


Yes, you were telling me my personal experience which I was passing on because it’s personal experience and if people only listen to “EVF is great without any flaws” then the conversation is rather one sided.

Anyway... I stand by my comment. Make sure you try using whatever camera you choose because you might (like me) have issue with the EVF, even though 99% of people don’t.

I'll make whatever statements I want, you don't have to agree. Clearly I believe it to be so though, or I wouldn't state it. If you're going to warn someone about EVF, at least give some reasoning. I gave reasons as to why I prefer them [at least the latest implementations of them] - they can suck too, like I mentioned the EVF on the old em5, that sucked! I've used OVF for 20 years before ever trying an evf, but once I discovered the better ones [Fuji] and then better again [Pany] I would find it extremely hard to go back to OVF.

 

[Nawty]

Yes but if you get a headache using the EVF (and yes that’s a “personal drama” as it was so rudely described elsewhere), final image or not a OVF is better (or perhaps I should say a better compromise)

Why can Mirrorless evangelists just not accept that not everyone likes or finds EVFs as comfortable use as they do. Future models may be different and I will admit to not trying absolutely every camera there is.

Of course perhaps if I actually spent £3k plus to replace my system I would find I liked it - if anyone wants to give me a Sony A7R III and a set of lenses I promise to give it a fair shot...

Please understand (and every comment to me in this thread understand) I’m not arguing for the sake of arguing, I’m not arguing because I thing DSLR is the pinnacle and nothing should surpass that, I’m not arguing for any other reason than I think my comments are just as valid as everyone who thinks a EVF is crystal clear perfection or indistinguishable from an OVF. For you likely it is... for me (and probably others I don’t think I’m that unique) it isn’t.

PS to all of the above, when I get a chance I’ll check out the latest Panasonics and will see how I get on with their EVFs.

I'll make whatever statements I want, you don't have to agree. Clearly I believe it to be so though, or I wouldn't state it. If you're going to warn someone about EVF, at least give some reasoning. I gave reasons as to why I prefer them [at least the latest implementations of them] - they can suck too, like I mentioned the EVF on the old em5, that sucked! I've used OVF for 20 years before ever trying an evf, but once I discovered the better ones [Fuji] and then better again [Pany] I would find it extremely hard to go back to OVF.

Yes yes, we got the messages, now play nicely as it’s boring for everyone else

 

[Cagey75]

Yes yes, we got the messages, now play nicely as it’s boring for everyone else

My post makes perfect sense, what are you on about? Did you even read it? Speak for yourself and don't worry about my posts thanks. Yours is actually more of a waste of space maybe offer some input? or stay out of the discussion. I made my point now either way.

 

[the black fox]

Pack it in children your not doing yourselves any favours ,my point of view is after a couple of weeks use ,a Evf is not as good as a ovf but at least on the pano g80 there’s not that much difference that causes me to be concerned about it ,the rear screen on my old 1D3 was far worse though the v/ f was better to, what I am finding though is it’s far better to just concentrate on getting your pics right in respect of shutter speed,iso,aperture and wait till they upload to my I.mac and just go wow

 

[mark.roper]

... If the OP is buying specifically for motorsport ...

Simon, I'll quote part of your response as your superb motorsports shots have shown me what can be achieved with m4/3. To address the point I'm not buying specifically for motorsports, I want an all-round camera that can do everything from holiday snaps to whatever semi-serious creative endeavors I might undertake, it's just motorsports is a particular interest and the one area I had doubts the m4/3 system could cope with, hence focusing on that aspect, perhaps too much maybe.

Anyway ....

As I alluded to in the opening post, I think I was looking for confirmation of a decision already made, and perhaps opening myself up to the possibility someone would present the killer reason why I was wrong to consider this path so as to save me from myself. No-one did, so Saturday I went to Wex, handed in my Nikon kit, for which they paid me a fair price, and walked out with an Olympus EM-1 Mk2 + 12-40 f2.8 + 40-150 f2.8 kit (+ free grip!).

OMFG!!!

What a stupendous camera, it's not even on the same planet as the D3300 let alone same league, and all I've done so far is charge the battery and started snapping (who needs manuals?!).

EVF? How have I lived this long without one? Crystal clear, shows you what the picture you're about to shoot is going to look like, no need to guess how much exposure compensation you might need, or what the effect of turning those little dials might have, the EVF shows you. See the picture you're going to take before you press the button? How utterly ridiculously useful, how does every camera not have one of these?

10fps mechanical, 20fps if I don't mind something called rolling shutter effect that I've yet to notice.

Lenses as clear as a mountain lake on a still winter's day.

Knobs, dials and buttons that are stupidly intuitive to use, change everything worthwhile without taking my eye from the, have I said how gorgeous it is yet, EVF?

Drool, I'm off to play some more, who needs sleep!

 

[srhmoto]

Simon, I'll quote part of your response as your superb motorsports shots have shown me what can be achieved with m4/3. To address the point I'm not buying specifically for motorsports, I want an all-round camera that can do everything from holiday snaps to whatever semi-serious creative endeavors I might undertake, it's just motorsports is a particular interest and the one area I had doubts the m4/3 system could cope with, hence focusing on that aspect, perhaps too much maybe.

Anyway ....

As I alluded to in the opening post, I think I was looking for confirmation of a decision already made, and perhaps opening myself up to the possibility someone would present the killer reason why I was wrong to consider this path so as to save me from myself. No-one did, so Saturday I went to Wex, handed in my Nikon kit, for which they paid me a fair price, and walked out with an Olympus EM-1 Mk2 + 12-40 f2.8 + 40-150 f2.8 kit (+ free grip!).

OMFG!!!

What a stupendous camera, it's not even on the same planet as the D3300 let alone same league, and all I've done so far is charge the battery and started snapping (who needs manuals?!).

EVF? How have I lived this long without one? Crystal clear, shows you what the picture you're about to shoot is going to look like, no need to guess how much exposure compensation you might need, or what the effect of turning those little dials might have, the EVF shows you. See the picture you're going to take before you press the button? How utterly ridiculously useful, how does every camera not have one of these?

10fps mechanical, 20fps if I don't mind something called rolling shutter effect that I've yet to notice.

Lenses as clear as a mountain lake on a still winter's day.

Knobs, dials and buttons that are stupidly intuitive to use, change everything worthwhile without taking my eye from the, have I said how gorgeous it is yet, EVF?

Drool, I'm off to play some more, who needs sleep!

Great stuff Mark . As an all rounder, the m4/3 system really is hard to beat. Both the lenses you have are superb - the 40-150mm f2.8 is probably the best lens I’ve ever used.

Really looking forward to seeing what you get with it

Cheers,

Simon.

 

[woof woof]

10fps mechanical, 20fps if I don't mind something called rolling shutter effect that I've yet to notice.

I've never been bothered by rolling shutter but I thought it might be worth mentioning another thing to be aware of just in case it catches you out and it's that if using the electronic shutter under flickering artificial lighting you can get banding in pictures that can be picture ruining, so be aware that this can be a potential issue.

 

[Cagey75]

Pack it in children your not doing yourselves any favours ,my point of view is after a couple of weeks use ,a Evf is not as good as a ovf but at least on the pano g80 there’s not that much difference that causes me to be concerned about it ,the rear screen on my old 1D3 was far worse though the v/ f was better to, what I am finding though is it’s far better to just concentrate on getting your pics right in respect of shutter speed,iso,aperture and wait till they upload to my I.mac and just go wow

Silly post as we were plainly done, so yes, pack it in is right, try making your point without re-stirring drama thanks.

I've never been bothered by rolling shutter but I thought it might be worth mentioning another thing to be aware of just in case it catches you out and it's that if using the electronic shutter under flickering artificial lighting you can get banding in pictures that can be picture ruining, so be aware that this can be a potential issue.

I have yet to experience rolling shutter issues, but I don't do much video. Another note on ES: flash doesn't work with it, took me a while to grasp this, kept thinking either the batteries were duds in the flash, or I had messed up some flash settings. I had been using ES when shooting birds in the garden as it was less prone to any slight shake. I just leave it in MS mostly now as I use flash a lot for macro

 

[Pete B]

I just got an Olympus Pen-F and am loving it. The main thing is that I have it with me so lots more photo opportunities.

 

[GreenNinja67]

I have the EM5MK2 having had Canon & Nikon full frame and I prefer the EVF.

Time will tell whether for action shots (hope to go to the Mach Loop soon) it'll be able to keep up but the fun's in the finding out.

Enjoy your EM1 MK2, I'm ever so slightly jealous.

 

[Nawty]

Rolling shutter is minimal on the EM1ii and can be ignored for most shooting situations, sensor readout is fast enough for it to need an extreme situation for it to occur.

There are two situations I don't use the electronic shutter: 1) flying insects as you get funny rubber wings as they do move very fast and 2) artificial lighting as the banding effect is quite severe.

 

[snerkler]

Simon, I'll quote part of your response as your superb motorsports shots have shown me what can be achieved with m4/3. To address the point I'm not buying specifically for motorsports, I want an all-round camera that can do everything from holiday snaps to whatever semi-serious creative endeavors I might undertake, it's just motorsports is a particular interest and the one area I had doubts the m4/3 system could cope with, hence focusing on that aspect, perhaps too much maybe.

Anyway ....

As I alluded to in the opening post, I think I was looking for confirmation of a decision already made, and perhaps opening myself up to the possibility someone would present the killer reason why I was wrong to consider this path so as to save me from myself. No-one did, so Saturday I went to Wex, handed in my Nikon kit, for which they paid me a fair price, and walked out with an Olympus EM-1 Mk2 + 12-40 f2.8 + 40-150 f2.8 kit (+ free grip!).

OMFG!!!

What a stupendous camera, it's not even on the same planet as the D3300 let alone same league, and all I've done so far is charge the battery and started snapping (who needs manuals?!).

EVF? How have I lived this long without one? Crystal clear, shows you what the picture you're about to shoot is going to look like, no need to guess how much exposure compensation you might need, or what the effect of turning those little dials might have, the EVF shows you. See the picture you're going to take before you press the button? How utterly ridiculously useful, how does every camera not have one of these?

10fps mechanical, 20fps if I don't mind something called rolling shutter effect that I've yet to notice.

Lenses as clear as a mountain lake on a still winter's day.

Knobs, dials and buttons that are stupidly intuitive to use, change everything worthwhile without taking my eye from the, have I said how gorgeous it is yet, EVF?

Drool, I'm off to play some more, who needs sleep!

Do you have a linky to Simon's pics please?

 

[srhmoto]

Do you have a linky to Simon's pics please?

I can help you with that

My Flickr : https://www.flickr.com/photos/srhmoto

Simon.

 

[snerkler]

I can help you with that

My Flickr : https://www.flickr.com/photos/srhmoto

Simon.

Haha I was just admiring these last week, I must keep a better track of who I'm following on twitter Some excellent shots on there, do you prefocus your motorsports or can the camera keep up? Obviously side to side panning isn't a big ask on the AF but you do have quite a number coming at 3/4 angles etc which is more demanding.

 

[mikew]

Rolling shutter is minimal on the EM1ii and can be ignored for most shooting situations, sensor readout is fast enough for it to need an extreme situation for it to occur.

There are two situations I don't use the electronic shutter: 1) flying insects as you get funny rubber wings as they do move very fast and 2) artificial lighting as the banding effect is quite severe.

Do you see any problems panning past upright things like poles or trees

 

[mark.roper]

I've never been bothered by rolling shutter but I thought it might be worth mentioning another thing to be aware of just in case it catches you out and it's that if using the electronic shutter under flickering artificial lighting you can get banding in pictures that can be picture ruining, so be aware that this can be a potential issue.

Thanks, will bear in mind, but to be honest 10fps and a buffer that just keeps going and going is a quantum leap up from the D3300 with 5fps and a buffer that gave up almost straight away.

Do you see any problems panning past upright things like poles or trees

I went to Aldershot yesterday to support a family friend competing in an Oval track formula, bit of an acid test taking my shiny new toy out without even reading the manual, I can quite happily report the EM1.2, once it's decided what to focus on, doesn't lose it, even as obstacles like the copious large posts that surround an oval track get in the way. I say "once it's decided", because Aldershot Raceway has pretty severe catch fencing and it took the EM1.2 a moment to decide it was the cars I was interested in not the fence, but then the bright sunlight reflecting off shiny fencing didn't help I guess. Once locked and loaded however the EM1.2 is a beast.

 

[juggler]

Hi all, not been around here long but already see the wealth of experience on this forum so figured I might avail myself of it ...

Bought a Nikon D3300 last year, immediately swapped the 18-55 kit lens for a 18-200 to give me a more versatile "everyday" lens, also bought a big Sigma 150-600 C for my primary hobby, motorsports photography (figuring the Sigma gave me the most "bang for buck" at the time), and over the last few months I've been pondering where I go next.

I bought a cheap body because I wanted to prove to myself I needed "feature X" before I spent £100's on something I didn't really need. For example the D3300 shoots at 5fps, something I figured would be important for motorsports, whereas the next model up (at the time), the D7200, shoots at 6fps, but was £500 more. Did I really want to spend £500 on 1 extra fps? Of course I didn't do my research properly otherwise I'd have known the D3300 only has a tiny buffer compared to the D7200!

So I started looking at my options. Upgrade the body to a D7200 / D7500 / D500? Get myself a 70-200 f2.8 so-called "pro" sports lens as I've decided the 18-200 doesn't really cut it for motorsports, and the Sigma is sometimes too big (should of gone for the 100 - 400 in hindsight). Get myself a 24-70 f2.8 because I shoot oval track racing as well as circuit and need something even closer than the 70-200?

But then as I added this up I found myself not only £1,000's out of pocket, but with several KG's extra weight to carry around also, and I'm already finding I leave the Sigma behind sometimes as a foot long 2KG lump is not something you chuck in your bag on the off chance you might use it.

So then I saw the Olympus E-M1 Mk2, a top of the range Micro 4/3rds camera that seems to tick all the boxes for me: super fast, light, several top quality (small and light) lenses etc., and here was me thinking I'd go FF from APS-C, not the other way (smaller sensor rather than bigger).

Am I mad?

After a year shooting with my D3300 here's what I've learned :-

• Frame-rate - I need more than 5fps and I need to be able to shoot for more than a second or 2 before the buffer fills.
• Bulk / weight - I have a shoulder bag and a back-pack, the shoulder bag is comfortable to carry around, the back-pack isn't, I'm 55, I don't want to carry a stone in weight of camera gear on my back.
• I've shot 1,000's of images in a year, only 1% are are at > ISO3200, so pretty sure the supposed low light inadequacies of M4/3 don't matter.
• I do this as a hobby, I don't do huge prints, I post on social media, I do some artwork for my son who races on short ovals, I don't need ultra-mega-pro quality images.
• I think I can afford to spend £3k, and Wex will give me £900 for my current gear (I have a prime lens as well I would no longer need).

Am I mad? Is this a viable way to go?

Not sure if I'm looking for advice or confirmation, but either way, I've found this forum never slow to come forward with opinions!

I went the other way but still use both m4/3 and FF.
Things have moved on but just make sure the focus tracking is up to your needs before committing.

 

[srhmoto]

Haha I was just admiring these last week, I must keep a better track of who I'm following on twitter Some excellent shots on there, do you prefocus your motorsports or can the camera keep up? Obviously side to side panning isn't a big ask on the AF but you do have quite a number coming at 3/4 angles etc which is more demanding.

Cheers Toby, I'm glad you like them.

Up until I got the G9, I pretty much pre-focused everything as far as motorsport was continued occasionally using AF-S for side on pans as the focus acquisition speed and accuracy in this focus mode is so good with Panasonic cameras. I also use a Tokina 300mm f2.8 AT-X Pro lens in Canon FD mount for a lot of motorsport stuff, so I have no choice but to manually pre-focus when using this. As long as you're not using low shutter speeds, I find manually focusing using the magnified EVF and then using focus peaking to see when the car has entered the plane of focus just as accurate as AF-C, although not as flexible. I will tend to shoot maybe one additional stop down on aperture though to give a little more DoF and wiggle room.

I have been doing some experimentation with the AF-C capabilities of my G9, and while I can say it is night and day better than any previous m4/3 camera I've ever used before, and not totally sold on it just yet. That could be because I'm missing a long DFD enabled lens in my kit bag just now, with my main native AF lens being the Oly 40-150mm f2.8. When AF-C works, it is fantastic but I'm struggling with consistency. However, I regularly shoot with shutter speed at or under 1/100s for motorsport, which of course brings my technique into sharp focus (pardon the pun).

I'm out again this weekend when the 750MC visit Croft Circuit. I've negotiated a 2 day pass out, so I'll continue to experiment. Could do with it cooling down a bit and having some cloud cover come the weekend otherwise I'll be stuck with short lenses again thanks to heat haze / distortion caused by the acres of concrete and tarmac so shoot over at Croft before you get to the track.

Cheers,

Simon.

 

[mikew]

Thanks, will bear in mind, but to be honest 10fps and a buffer that just keeps going and going is a quantum leap up from the D3300 with 5fps and a buffer that gave up almost straight away.



I went to Aldershot yesterday to support a family friend competing in an Oval track formula, bit of an acid test taking my shiny new toy out without even reading the manual, I can quite happily report the EM1.2, once it's decided what to focus on, doesn't lose it, even as obstacles like the copious large posts that surround an oval track get in the way. I say "once it's decided", because Aldershot Raceway has pretty severe catch fencing and it took the EM1.2 a moment to decide it was the cars I was interested in not the fence, but then the bright sunlight reflecting off shiny fencing didn't help I guess. Once locked and loaded however the EM1.2 is a beast.

I was talking about rolling shutter effect with electronic shutter, here is a crap image i kept to show what it can do to upright things.

 

[mark.roper]

Ah Mike, yes I see, sorry haven't tried the electronic shutter yet, actually figured it was too damn fast!