Thomas Heaton

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What the video shows is that the guy decided to wade through of his own accord. However they really should stop him from doing it. That is my own opinion as I personally believe that as a leader you have a duty of care to your paying clients.

What happens if something DID happen to the guy even if it was his own decision? If memory serves the client was an American and I’m sure you know how the legal system can be over there.

If you watch Brendan’s version he describes the water as being waist deep so hardly paddling.
Rather than assuming/talking about what the leader of a tour does and doesn't do with regards to safety and their legal liability for the people on their tours is should anyone have an accident it may be better to get in touch rather than making assumptions. ;) Especially on an internet forum, talking of a sue'ing' culture. ;)

If I had any doubts about safety on a tour, I'd get that sorted before the tour, especially if I were going to remote locations, and paying so much for the privilege. I would also think that I would have been briefed on any potential dangers on the tour ahead. One of Thomas Heaton's recent videos had people climbing ladders on mountains in the Alps, and one would assume the participants had prior warning. And I would think insurance would be part of the tour cost, but I wouldn't make statements one way or the other.

As for stopping people from doing things whilst on a tour, you can warn people, but as adults, if they want to do things, unless you physically stop them, they will do whatever. As long as you warned them not to, what else could you do!
 
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Julian Elliott
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Rather than assuming/talking about what the leader of a tour does and doesn't do with regards to safety and their legal liability for the people on their tours is should anyone have an accident it may be better to get in touch rather than making assumptions. ;) Especially on an internet forum, talking of a sue'ing' culture. ;)

If I had any doubts about safety on a tour, I'd get that sorted before the tour, especially if I were going to remote locations, and paying so much for the privilege. I would also think that I would have been briefed on any potential dangers on the tour ahead. One of Thomas Heaton's recent videos had people climbing ladders on mountains in the Alps, and one would assume the participants had prior warning. And I would think insurance would be part of the tour cost, but I wouldn't make statements one way or the other.

As for stopping people from doing things whilst on a tour, you can warn people, but as adults, if they want to do things, unless you physically stop them, they will do whatever. As long as you warned them not to, what else could you do!
They vlogged it what happened.
 
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The lad that walked through the water was also doing his own series of vlogs. Motivation to try to get views me thinks?
Possibly, yes. It is a shame that social media is putting daft thoughts into people's minds. That they should take a risk just to get more views. The worst case this year being the guy that was shot by his girlfriend thinking that a couple of books would stop the bullet.
 
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Steve
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Rather than assuming/talking about what the leader of a tour does and doesn't do with regards to safety and their legal liability for the people on their tours is should anyone have an accident it may be better to get in touch rather than making assumptions. ;) Especially on an internet forum, talking of a sue'ing' culture. ;)

If I had any doubts about safety on a tour, I'd get that sorted before the tour, especially if I were going to remote locations, and paying so much for the privilege. I would also think that I would have been briefed on any potential dangers on the tour ahead. One of Thomas Heaton's recent videos had people climbing ladders on mountains in the Alps, and one would assume the participants had prior warning. And I would think insurance would be part of the tour cost, but I wouldn't make statements one way or the other.

As for stopping people from doing things whilst on a tour, you can warn people, but as adults, if they want to do things, unless you physically stop them, they will do whatever. As long as you warned them not to, what else could you do!
If it’s the ladders up to Lac Blanc they aren’t too tricky - although when I saw he was at Lac Cheserys I did think he a) picked the right lake over Lanc Blanc because Lac Blanc had that hideous concrete hut in the way b) you can get there avoiding the ladders pretty easily by going on the lower path from La Flegere then head to Cheserys that way. It’s a safe and easy walk at night, with a head torch. Suicide without one but certainly workshop friendly.

He got a better day than me and that shot of Le Dru is pure class and really is one of the all time great Alpine shots.

What he didn’t mention in the Lac Cheresys video is the mess the lake is in. There’s quite a visible path in the shot and the embankment is very trampled down due to the plethora of hill walkers that visit. Although the view is lovely I wouldn’t go back. It’s far from how it would have looked 200yrs ago due to the worn path and trampled embankments and although when you see the Mont Blanc Ridge reflected you can’t help but feel disappointed by the state it’s in.

Throw in a sign no one bothers to clone out and the very real risk of tents being set up in front of you and it’s not quite the dream location he portrays.

IMG_3296.jpg

In another angle facing left there is a very visible forestry track, refuge etc on one of the mountain tops. It spoilt it for me.
 
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If it’s the ladders up to Lac Blanc they aren’t too tricky - although when I saw he was at Lac Cheserys I did think he a) picked the right lake over Lanc Blanc because Lac Blanc had that hideous concrete hut in the way b) you can get there avoiding the ladders pretty easily by going on the lower path from La Flegere then head to Cheserys that way. It’s a safe and easy walk at night, with a head torch. Suicide without one but certainly workshop friendly.

He got a better day than me and that shot of Le Dru is pure class and really is one of the all time great Alpine shots.

What he didn’t mention in the Lac Cheresys video is the mess the lake is in. There’s quite a visible path in the shot and the embankment is very trampled down due to the plethora of hill walkers that visit. Although the view is lovely I wouldn’t go back. It’s far from how it would have looked 200yrs ago due to the worn path and trampled embankments and although when you see the Mont Blanc Ryder reflected you can’t help but feel disappointed by the state it’s in.

Throw in a sign no one bothers to clone out and the very real risk of tents being set up in front of you and it’s not quite the dream location he portrays.

View attachment 136963

In another angle facing left there is a very visible forestry track, refuge etc on one of the mountain tops. It spoilt it for me.
Thanks for sharing. It's a bit like that recent thread where the photographer documented what some of the honeypot locations are like in the round - including ice cream van if I recall correctly
 
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Julian Elliott
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Just to make some of you aware of something that you may not be familiar with. This is something I came across earlier this week as I'm having issues in regards to people infringing my copyright in various places.

There is a point of law called vicarious liability. It is essentially where the actions of one person can affect the person who is responsible for them be it in an employee/ employer role OR when it comes to tour operator/ participant role. It can be tricky to navigate but take a look and you might be surprised at how your actions can land someone else in trouble no matter how well intentioned.

You will now know why I am cautious with some things. And after reading up on it you might be too!
 
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Greg
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Noted for when I need a baby sitter. For an photography workshop for adults, I’ll remember to look elsewhere.
Completely expected response. Zero thought for the welfare of anyone else on the workshop. The fact they have paid good money to be there and be taught also. So, whilst i’m dealing with the innevitable catastrophe of you falling and breaking your leg, their workshop ends and i then have to deal with months of legalities, statements, and insurance implications. Awesome.
 
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Completely expected response. Zero thought for the welfare of anyone else on the workshop. The fact they have paid good money to be there and be taught also. So, whilst i’m dealing with the innevitable catastrophe of you falling and breaking your leg, their workshop ends and i then have to deal with months of legalities, statements, and insurance implications. Awesome.
You’ve assumed that I’m an irresponsible person. I’m not, but nobody is going to tell me what I can and can’t do. If I want to wade into a river to get a shot then if I think it’s safe to do so, I will. What does that have to do with the welfare of others?

As for dealing with legalities. There wouldn’t be any. As I said in my first post, I don’t place blame where there is non. If I break my leg, that’s my doing. I would have thought I’d be the kind of person you did want on a workshop instead of having to babysit everyone to make sure you don’t get sued. :rolleyes:
 
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Toni
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You’ve assumed that I’m an irresponsible person. I’m not, but nobody is going to tell me what I can and can’t do. If I want to wade into a river to get a shot then if I think it’s safe to do so, I will. What does that have to do with the welfare of others?

As for dealing with legalities. There wouldn’t be any. As I said in my first post, I don’t place blame where there is non. If I break my leg, that’s my doing. I would have thought I’d be the kind of person you did want on a workshop instead of having to babysit everyone to make sure you don’t get sued. :rolleyes:
Elliott - didn't you grow up in Africa? I don't think the European, and especially English-speaking approach to responsibility & safety works the same way as you'd reasonbably expect. If you killed yourself then you'd blame yourself, but if a typical brit killed themselves then they'd expect their family to go after the guys who organised the tour. Sadly we are becoming more like America every day.
 
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Elliott - didn't you grow up in Africa? I don't think the European, and especially English-speaking approach to responsibility & safety works the same way as you'd reasonbably expect. If you killed yourself then you'd blame yourself, but if a typical brit killed themselves then they'd expect their family to go after the guys who organised the tour. Sadly we are becoming more like America every day.
And therein lies one of the issues. Someone will always look to put the blame onto someone else.
 
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Elliott - didn't you grow up in Africa? I don't think the European, and especially English-speaking approach to responsibility & safety works the same way as you'd reasonbably expect. If you killed yourself then you'd blame yourself, but if a typical brit killed themselves then they'd expect their family to go after the guys who organised the tour. Sadly we are becoming more like America every day.
You’ve assumed that I’m an irresponsible person. I’m not, but nobody is going to tell me what I can and can’t do. If I want to wade into a river to get a shot then if I think it’s safe to do so, I will. What does that have to do with the welfare of others?

As for dealing with legalities. There wouldn’t be any. As I said in my first post, I don’t place blame where there is non. If I break my leg, that’s my doing. I would have thought I’d be the kind of person you did want on a workshop instead of having to babysit everyone to make sure you don’t get sued. :rolleyes:
And this is the point. Hypothetical scenario:

You pay me £4000 to go to Patagonia (btw, no criticism of Thomas here, i have no idea of what the situation was and therefore i have no basis to be critical. I have had dialogue with him in the past and he is a very sensible chap). There are 5 other clients and a guide.

We head out for a shoot on the first day. You and i are about 50 yds from the rest of the group. There looks like there is a great shot from the top of a rock. I scope it out and it’s really slippy. I say “hey Elliot, best not stand on that, it’s dangerous”. You tell me to “get knotted” and do it anyway. You slip and crack your head like a watermelon (heads do that). You bleed out and die.

I call the emergency services. At this point the other paying clients have gathered around. The workshop is effectively over. People are crying and shocked. The coroner turns up and takes your lifeless body away. The Police ask me what happened. They take statements from the rest of the group. No one heard me give a warning and no-one heard you say “get knotted”. They did see me get on the rock first. I’m arrested.

Your widow is distraught. She blames me. She has to deal with repatriation of your body. She never sees your lovely face again because it’s been smashed in. She’s angry.

Meanwhile the other participants are receiving counselling. They sue me, because as far as they are concerned, i’m to blame and they now have PTSD.

In terms of the authorities, it’s my word against the witnesses and the law. I’m in a pretty bad place. My only defence is that i can challenge your character and point to your post above...he was beligerant, he has a history of saying “get knotted” and ignoring instruction.

Meanwhile petapixel pick up the story, then the BBC. I’m suddenly the workshop leader who got a client killed. My business is as dead as you. A tearful wife appear on BBC Breakfast. She wants me taken to the cleaners.

Now i’m dealing with multiple lawsuits...and even if i was insured in any way, i’m paying thousands in legal fees to defend myself. I may not even be allowed to leave South America.

Eventually i’m cleared, but i’ve had to sell my home to pay legal fees. I have to live with the fact that a client died on my workshop. I have nightmares about my time on remand. All i think of is “could i have done more?”.

All hypothetical, but that is how this works in the modern world. Authorities have zero regard for YOUR interpretation of how things should work. The law does not care. It just is.

So, that is why you wanting to do something that the leader advises you not to, should be considered an instruction not to proceed, that you really should take heed of.
 
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Well, if I’d paid you £4K to attend one of your workshops and you tried to tell me what I can and can’t do, I’d tell you to get knotted.
Tell me - whilst I appreciate you don't want to pay £4k to be ordered around like a school child or patronised but what would you want from a workshop?

You are paying for guidance with the location, composition and camera craft where the workshop leader will tell what they think is best for your images and safety. If they didn't - what would you be getting?
 
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Ben
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Ive been watching Thomas Heatons blog for a couple of years now. He was the first Vlog I got into. One thing I find amazing is that it took until about 20 VLOGS to realise he had a girlffiend and a Dog. I think she went with him on his trip to Norway and Tromso.

I always wonder how he manages to be out shooting solo and jetting around the world without her, and keep her happy. I struggle to get out on a weekend never mind multiple times a week.

Agree with some posters on here, whilst I love going out walking with my girlfriend and dog I do feel far more productive going out with just myself, camera and a few lenses.
 
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Elliott
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And this is the point. Hypothetical scenario:

You pay me £4000 to go to Patagonia (btw, no criticism of Thomas here, i have no idea of what the situation was and therefore i have no basis to be critical. I have had dialogue with him in the past and he is a very sensible chap). There are 5 other clients and a guide.

We head out for a shoot on the first day. You and i are about 50 yds from the rest of the group. There looks like there is a great shot from the top of a rock. I scope it out and it’s really slippy. I say “hey Elliot, best not stand on that, it’s dangerous”. You tell me to “get knotted” and do it anyway. You slip and crack your head like a watermelon (heads do that). You bleed out and die.

I call the emergency services. At this point the other paying clients have gathered around. The workshop is effectively over. People are crying and shocked. The coroner turns up and takes your lifeless body away. The Police ask me what happened. They take statements from the rest of the group. No one heard me give a warning and no-one heard you say “get knotted”. They did see me get on the rock first. I’m arrested.

Your widow is distraught. She blames me. She has to deal with repatriation of your body. She never sees your lovely face again because it’s been smashed in. She’s angry.

Meanwhile the other participants are receiving counselling. They sue me, because as far as they are concerned, i’m to blame and they now have PTSD.

In terms of the authorities, it’s my word against the witnesses and the law. I’m in a pretty bad place. My only defence is that i can challenge your character and point to your post above...he was beligerant, he has a history of saying “get knotted” and ignoring instruction.

Meanwhile petapixel pick up the story, then the BBC. I’m suddenly the workshop leader who got a client killed. My business is as dead as you. A tearful wife appear on BBC Breakfast. She wants me taken to the cleaners.

Now i’m dealing with multiple lawsuits...and even if i was insured in any way, i’m paying thousands in legal fees to defend myself. I may not even be allowed to leave South America.

Eventually i’m cleared, but i’ve had to sell my home to pay legal fees. I have to live with the fact that a client died on my workshop. I have nightmares about my time on remand. All i think of is “could i have done more?”.

All hypothetical, but that is how this works in the modern world. Authorities have zero regard for YOUR interpretation of how things should work. The law does not care. It just is.

So, that is why you wanting to do something that the leader advises you not to, should be considered an instruction not to proceed, that you really should take heed of.
I'd say you have a bunch of snowflakes on your workshop and you should try and find a different type of client or you should stop doing workshops because someday somebody is bound to hurt themselves and we'd hate to see somebody require counselling. I hope you insist on psychiatric evaluations or a letter from their mum before accepting clients for your workshops.
 
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Elliott
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You are paying for guidance with the location, composition and camera craft where the workshop leader will tell what they think is best for your images and safety. If they didn't - what would you be getting?
An adventure, that's what people pay for. If you think people pay £4k+ for somebody to tell them what camera settings to use or where to point the camera you are sorely mistaken.

The workshop leader can guide and advise. That's all.
 
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Elliott
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But you can do that without going on a workshop - it's probably more adventurous to go solo rather than with a bunch of "snowflakes". That would be my worry actually going on a group thing, leftists, dog owners and caravanists.
Steve, you're missing my point. Personally I would never go on a workshop. Firstly because I don't have £4k+ to squander and secondly I would rather go out by myself.

My original post regarding this was in response to somebody saying how dare Thomas Heaton allow somebody to put themselves in danger. My answer was simply that there is nothing he can do about it. He can advise, he can warn of dangers but he can not physically force somebody not to do something and if I had paid £4k for a workshop there is no way in hell I'm taking orders from anyone.

I never said I was inconsiderate or an idiot that would take unnecessary risks. I've watched all of Thomas Heaton's videos and I wouldn't say that anybody has ever put themselves at risk on one of his workshops. Clearly though there are a couple of people here that obviously run very boring, regimented workshops. certainly not something I would pay for.
 
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Greg
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I'd say you have a bunch of snowflakes on your workshop and you should try and find a different type of client or you should stop doing workshops because someday somebody is bound to hurt themselves and we'd hate to see somebody require counselling. I hope you insist on psychiatric evaluations or a letter from their mum before accepting clients for your workshops.
Dude, I visited your website expecting to see some really gnarly off the beaten track stuff, something that would back up your gung-ho attitude. I didn't find it. Nice pic from the side of the A82 though. As Steve says, you're probably better off saving some money by going solo and sticking to the car parks. Leave the more risky stuff to the rest of us ;)
 
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Elliott
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Dude, I visited your website expecting to see some really gnarly off the beaten track stuff, something that would back up your gung-ho attitude. I didn't find it. Nice pic from the side of the A82 though. As Steve says, you're probably better off saving some money by going solo and sticking to the car parks. Leave the more risky stuff to the rest of us ;)
Dude! Photography is a hobby, I never said I was gung ho. It was you that assumed that. Now, I never got personal so I don't see any reason for you picking holes in me or my photos. You certainly seem to be a bit of a prick. Your workshops must be a load of fun, if you ever finish filling in the risk assessment.
 
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Greg
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As for Thomas, I've warmed to him over time. I find the mix between office and outdoors generally fine and he never gives it the big "I am" which would be all too easy in his position. As mentioned, we had some dialogue a while back which was the turning point for me. I admire what he has has achieved in such a short time, even if I don't always agree with his methods.
 
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Dude! Photography is a hobby, I never said I was gung ho. It was you that assumed that. Now, I never got personal so I don't see any reason for you picking holes in me or my photos. You certainly seem to be a bit of a prick. Your workshops must be a load of fun, if you ever finish filling in the risk assessment.
I didn't pick holes in your photos, I said they were nice. You're the one who suggested my clients were snowflakes and that I should do a psychiatric evaluation of them beforehand. You forget, I have experience of this thing about which you seem to know so much. I gave you a straight to the point answer to your assertion that you are an adult and nobody tells you what to do. It was simple. You get kicked off the workshop in no uncertain terms. In fact, my terms and conditions allude to this...my decision is final.
 
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Elliott
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I didn't pick holes in your photos, I said they were nice. You're the one who suggested my clients were snowflakes and that I should do a psychiatric evaluation of them beforehand. You forget, I have experience of this thing about which you seem to know so much. I gave you a straight to the point answer to your assertion that you are an adult and nobody tells you what to do. It was simple. You get kicked off the workshop in no uncertain terms. In fact, my terms and conditions allude to this...my decision is final.
I thought they were hypothetical clients. o_O
 
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Graham
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Dude, I visited your website expecting to see some really gnarly off the beaten track stuff, something that would back up your gung-ho attitude. I didn't find it. Nice pic from the side of the A82 though. As Steve says, you're probably better off saving some money by going solo and sticking to the car parks. Leave the more risky stuff to the rest of us ;)
This has to be one of the worst posts I've ever read on here. This is a decent thread. Please don't spoil it for the rest of us.
 
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Christ I thought it was pretty bloody restrained considering he'd been called a prick previous to that
I didn't see that and maybe if I had I'd understand the response but I hate to see condescension and belittling of other people's photography. I would say it goes completely against the ethos of this forum.
 
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This has to be one of the worst posts I've ever read on here. This is a decent thread. Please don't spoil it for the rest of us.
Sorry, he was implying i run “boring restricted workshops”. That is an attack on my business. Gloves off...respectfully
 
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Stuart McGlennon
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...Previous to that?

You may want to check that again.
Lol apology - you're right, but then some of the tripe you've come out with previous to that it's no wonder you got that response. No workshop leader worth his salts would allow you to do anything of the sort you're suggesting as it would be in the T's & C's to start with - suggesting he's got 'snowflakes' on his workshop and the like is just moronic. If you knew a shred about any of that stuff you wouldn't even come out with it - Greg's ran successful mountain workshops for many years in a thorough and professional manner and has clearly forgot more than you're coming out with. The scenario he gave while dramatised for effect is entirely realistic, and at the bare minimum you could injure yourself and ruin the workshop for the other 'snowflakes' that have paid 4k for - the only prick would be you.
 
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Another thread spoiled by childish bickering and name calling.
Happening all to often these days. A real shame.
I get annoyed at some of the drivel posted and have to sit on my hands as I'd likely get banned if I typed what I was thinking.
Perhaps others should do the same.
I'd use ignore, but I'd be talking to myself most of the time. I've tried that and it's not much fun. :(
 
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