Togsprint/ISL Photographic - cowboys?

The Reverend JT

The Reverend JT

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Yes
I had seen these guys about and a guy i know had bought a canvas from there and recommended them to me - so i thought i would buy one of their products.

I ended up going for a 16 x 12" canvas, was told it would be there by the friday before last, didn't arrive. after chasing up with a couple of emails i was told fed-ex had lost it and they would get it sent again. Didn't come again at which point i'm getting pretty annoyed by it all. I then get told it will be out with me via recorded post (i had paid extra for fed-ex delivery), and it arrived the next day, however the canvas is totally unusable due to the fact it has what appears to be wet patches all over it (i think it's too much 'matte' protective covering in certain areas, which ironically enough i was advised to have by steve there) and appears all shiny in patches whenever light hits it. the rest of it appears to be fine though; as in good quality wood, ink etc.

Basically, i can't sell it or even give it to anyone - i can't even use it myself.

I've emailed them again with a picture to explain what i mean and... no response. No-one's picking up the phone either. The fact they sent me a product (however defective) means i know they are a business and not complete rip off merchants, but how on earth do i rectify this as i need the canvas by next friday and i'm not 30 odd quid down and no further forward.

i'm really pretty angry about the whole situation - anyone else has similar experience or know how i can get hold of anyone there. Lee seemed to be quite helpful but then sent me a totally shoddy product, a week late.

???
 
POAH said:
send it back and ask for your money back
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sending it back will cost me more money, and then i will have to depend on them to send me my money back, which to be honest i'm not keen on!

plus i've expressed how unhappy i am in an email last night, and no response today and they're not answering the phones.
 
I ordered once from them and chased and chased and chased, lots of excuses later I got mine after about 3 weeks. Reasonable quality, but would never use them again as I cant afford to let clients down. They seem to knock out a decent canvas overall, but useless at running a business!!

I use Oxford Imaging and had fantastic service before ordering and it came within a week and was very, very happy with the end product!
 
The Reverend JT said:
sending it back will cost me more money, and then i will have to depend on them to send me my money back, which to be honest i'm not keen on!

plus i've expressed how unhappy i am in an email last night, and no response today and they're not answering the phones.
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no sending it back will cost them money since the product is not what you asked for.
 
POAH said:
no sending it back will cost them money since the product is not what you asked for.
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i can't magic it to them though can i? if they don't answer my emails or calls, which they aren't, then i can't get it to them without spending money - which i will probably never see again along with the money i paid for the canvas in the first place.

you with me?
 
Send it to them either courier or RMSD/ParcelFarce so that it is signed for and you have proof of delivery. That will help if you have to chase them for a refund. But I disagree with POAH about you getting the cost of the return back, you should get the cost of delivery to you but it's unlikely you'll get the return cost back, that's just one of the risks you have to accept when shopping online I'm afraid.
 
In this thread it says that ISL were closing down. I thought ISL & Togs Print were one & the same.

I have had great experiences with Togs Print in the past....

Steve
 
hypnotic said:
It appears that Togsprint have managed to start building themselves a bit of a bad reputationPrevious thread here
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Did they ever have a good one ? i remember making enquiries to them over a year ago, but after reading the feedback on here i wouldn't touch them with a very long barge pole, i don't think i've ever heard a good word about them here which is ironic as they advertise here, if they can't get there act sorted after the amount of time they have been trading whats the point ?
 
POAH said:
send it back and ask for your money back
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You must get the company to accept that it is being returned first, otherwise it might 'get lost in the post'

You need a reference for sending it back on, it isn't safe otherwise
 
I have just found this on their forum posted on the 27/10 ;-

Hi everyone

Well the business will be moved this weekend - the printing business is staying and is our primary focus now

We will be off the air this weekend during the move to new premises and our number will be changing to 0870 803 1579 should you need to get in touch with us. We'll have a local delivery service to the Leeds area for prints and canvasses or can meet at convenient places for you/us too.

We do still have some lighting available after some people have let us down today, therefore if you do want anything let us know and we'll see what we have left for you

Cheers

Lee
 
Somebody once told me that there are three sides to a coin - heads, tails, and the little edge that runs around the outside.........

Togsprint became ISL Photo Services over the summer.

Its true that from the end of October (the weekend just gone) we have closed the studio for hire, and as the framing business was a little slower than expected, we have gone back to our core printing business now called ISL Photo Services *edited URL* on an all new *edited phone number - not advertisers anymore guys!* from 29th October. We left a message on this number of the fact that we were moving and would not be able to respond over the weekend, and those people who wanted to contact us left messages - all have been responded to today.

This is how we believe the story told unfolded.

The gentleman concerned ordered his canvas and we produced and despatched it within a couple of days of the order arriving. It was despatched by Fedex but unfortunately they lost it and after searching could not locate it. This process of confirmation that Fedex go through takes a few days so we did not want to produce a replacement until Fedex confirmed its loss. Nevertheless, another was produced (in fully acceptable condition), carefully packaged and despatched, and according to Fedex was received and signed for - they have a Proof of Delivery at the correct address. When the customer stated he had not received it, we were somewhat surprised - Fedex are doing further checks to see if fraud or theft has been committed by someone. Further, we produced yet another in fully acceptable condition and sent it via Royal Mail, which was received by the customer. At the time of writing this, we are awaiting further information from Fedex but are not prepared to send out yet another canvas if the likelihood is for it to go missing. As a token of good faith, we discussed the matter and agreed to refund the customer if he could prove he had not received it, or would send the alleged faulty product back to us for examination. Its a difficult situation - we have a signed POD saying the customer HAS has the product (the second canvas sent out by Fedex) plus the one delivered by Royal Mail.

We will accept that during the last week, communication maybe hasn’t been as good as we would have hoped, but this has been partly down to phone and Broadband issues since resolved.

We produce a top quality product at a very fair, very competitive price and recently any issues have been created by the various engaged delivery services. Over recent months we have had some VERY large orders to process so occasionally delays in production of up to 48 hours have been possible but we have now rectified this. Working to tight margins means we cannot produce endless products and whilst we endeavour to produce products quickly, delays sometimes occur when the goods are being carried by third parties. If a customer has a particular problem with any product we supply, we will happily provide a replacement or refund on the basis that we get the original product back wherever possible, so we can examine it. Our QA system is now really tight and only exceptionally are there any issues with product itself - again, we have had issues with damaged product once handed to carriers, but cant be liable for that. In an effort to provide customer service, we tend to duplicate orders and send them out by alternative methods when damage in transit has been caused by the carriers.

Its always the case that of the hundreds (possibly thousands) of satisfied customers, it tends to be the ones with issues who write in the public domain like TP. Then there may be a few people who have had minor issues who add their comments, often with some justification as they may still feel aggrieved, and then topped up by people without any experience of our products and services jumping on the bandwagon. I wonder if its true for those people - does misery really love company?

If we are in the wrong, we will always hold up our hand and attempt as a priority to fix any problems. Unbelievably, we are human so can make mistakes but always do our very best to correct them.

If you want printing or canvas products, you want the best quality and value for money, please do give us a try and we will do our utmost to satisfy these requirements quickly and efficiently. Where is the benefit in us doing otherwise?

Cowboys - I don’t think so - but we will defend ourselves at High Noon at the O~K Corral.

Cheers
Lee and Steve
ISL Photo Services
 
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So, does that mean you are saying the 3rd canvas was of good quality?

As The Reverend JT seems to think otherwise.
 
Right this is absolutely ludicrous - I want you to prove to me, and everyone here that you are lying to, that you have proof of fed ex delivering any canvas to me. You can't, because they haven't. You say in your email
agreed to refund the customer if he could prove he had not received it,
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- first of all - how do i prove that i haven't received anything?! you have to prove you have delivered it, and you can't because you haven't delivered it. secondly - i emailed you this last week, and i haven't received a reply since - i even gave you one more chance to rectify this total abomination of a situation which you completely ignored. Here is the email verbatim, which remains unanswered.

justin thompson to printing
show details Oct 27 (6 days ago)
Lee,

This has now turned from being a pain that it wasn't delivered on time, to a situation where the product arrived yesterday, and is of a quality which renders it utterly useless. To say i am annoyed at the situation is an understatement. The frame and quality of the paint/print appear to be good, but the Matte substrate it is coated in (that i was advised to add via your colleague Steve) makes it look wet and very, very patchy. It is completely useless as a canvass as whatever angle you view the canvass at it looks like it hasn't dried properly, so it can't be kept by me or given to anyone else. The reason i have left it 24 hours is because i thought it was still wet due to you rushing it out to me, but now it appears there is a massive problem with how it has been coated. I have attached a picture for you to see what i am referring to, although frankly you know what the situation is as you sent it out in that condition, again something totally unacceptable in terms of product quality and customer service. I cannot believe how badly i have been stung by what i thought was a professional outfit, and i'm now in a position where ordering the same product from another source will mean that it arrives too late.

I am going to give you one more chance to rectify the situation before I tell everyone that will listen/read how shockingly i have been let down by your company. What one earth has lead to this series of events where you have been able to treat me so shambolically and think that it is an acceptable way to do business?

I await your response tomorrow morning

Justin
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and here is the pic in question so you can see what i am referring to in the product i received (through royal mail, when i paid extra through fed-ex and they conveniently 'lost it') - as you can see it is patchy and unusable.


5139495220_9024239d9a.jpg
[/url] patchy canvas by The Reverend JT, on Flickr[/IMG]


i have still had no response from the email last week, and frankly i am in shock that ISL could come back and try and make out like any of this is my fault.

I know you can't produce any sort of fed ex form that isn't fabricated because i haven't received more than one, shoddily produced canvas. why on earth would I have kicked up any sort of fuss at all if i had received a decent product? I've bought and sold loads of stuff from here and i know a lot of people on here, and every one of them will tell you i am a straight up guy who would not complain unless anything was wrong. The same can't be said for your mess of a company - i've seen lots of complaints on here TP (unfortunately after i had the misfortune to deal with you), including, funnily enough, lots of people saying couriers that were meant to show up with a product never did.
 
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Putting aside delivery problems (although from looking around the forum it seems that this is by no means a one off problem so maybe it's time to try a different courier?) I think you're doing yourselves more harm than good by trying to claim that that canvas is in "fully acceptable condition".

I can understand that you don't want your business publicly dragged through the mud, but if that really is an example of a product you consider perfectly acceptable, I can't help but feel you deserve it.
 
In my understanding the onus of proof is on the supplier to provide proof of delivery. Not the other way around.

Especially as, has been said, theres no way of proving that something hasn't been delivered.

And looking at the canvas, are the wet parts the large black spots which appear all over the top corner (as we're looking at it) and down the left hand side? They're pretty noticeable.
 
JohnEJL82 said:
In my understanding the onus of proof is on the supplier to provide proof of delivery. Not the other way around.

Especially as, has been said, theres no way of proving that something hasn't been delivered.

And looking at the canvas, are the wet parts the large black spots which appear all over the top corner (as we're looking at it) and down the left hand side? They're pretty noticeable.
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yep, actually the worst bits are at the top right (you can see a large dark patch) and the bottom right.
 
I don't know what's worse reading this thread. The delivery issues? The lies blaming the customer despite previously putting fault on the delivery company in an email (effectively calling JT a thief). Or actually not even bothering to apologise to the customer. As photographers we often get referrals through existing customers and refer colleagues to companies we've used and trust. Looking at this they look like a shambles of a company and I wont be buying from them.
 
not so comfy now, are you ISL?
Unbelievably, we are human so can make mistakes but always do our very best to correct them.
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Truly, this is unbelievable. Firstly, your flippant tone really, really doesn't help you. Secondly, you clearly made a mistake - everyone can see the print is not up to scratch - and yet you have completely ignored the issue, choosing instead to take issue with a customer who has received a very poor service from your company. 'we produced yet another in fully acceptable condition' - clearly this was not the case. Look at the picture above.
Regarding the postage situation - you seem to be inferring that The Reverend JT has lied about receiving post from Fed Ex without producing a shred of evidence to back it up. Furthermore, if you truly do have a form signed by the customer at his address, what the hell are you doing sending out another canvas? Why haven't you provided a copy to The Reverend JT?

If you had come in here & posted a sincere apology along the lines of 'OK, we hold our hands up - we messed up on this one, partly due to the move, partly due to other circumstances - some of which were beyond our control, some of which we erred on' then I would have accepted it fully. Your response makes me know that I would never want to do business with you, & in that respect I thank you for making sure my business will now be received by a half-decent company and not by yourselves.

Cowboys? Ha.
You've turned up to the showdown unarmed & with your pants round your ankles
 
according to Fedex was received and signed for - they have a Proof of Delivery at the correct address.
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If is the case here (and I'm not saying it is or isn't) then there will be a Fedex tracking number (which can be checked online), all ISL need do is provide it to Justin and he can contact them. They should then be able to provide details of who signed for it and at what address.
 
Sorry ISL you really don't know much about business do you?

You never air you dirty laundry in public. You make sure that any complaint is dealt with swiftly and don't come on here defending yourselves, when we are all aware this is not the first time of things like this happening.

It is down to you to prove that the customer received it. Why would you go to the trouble of sending a third if the second had been signed for?

You do yourself no favours, and the attitude being show does not help your case. Another thing for you to remember is that as the product is faulty YOU will have to refund return costs to the customer.
 
Flash In The Pan said:
If is the case here (and I'm not saying it is or isn't) then there will be a Fedex tracking number (which can be checked online), all ISL need do is provide it to Justin and he can contact them. They should then be able to provide details of who signed for it and at what address.
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Funnily enough I bought some things from flash in the pan last year, and it came through Royal mail recorded delivery IIRC - now for some reason royal mail held onto it for ages, and i knew this because i emailed flash in the pan, and he sent me the tracking number and all the details, i then took it up with royal mail and it arrived a week or so later.

there was no fuss, i didn't kick off because he had done everything he said he did, and gave me evidence to back up what he was saying - yes royal mail were at fault, but then that never surprises me :D


cracking stuff as well by the way FITP, awesome :)
 
This thread upsets me on a number of levels. Why?

I'm the guy that recommended Togsprint to JT. I feel like I've let him down by my recommendation and that Togsprint have let me down by failing to provide a decent product to JT.

I'm a past Togsprint customer. I've had a number of canvases from them and the quality of the print and of the frame has always been very good in my opinion. I've recommended them to colleagues and people on this forum, as well as to friends like JT.

But I don't use Togsprint any more. My last order from there was late. It was claimed it was lost in the post. I don't have the exact email trail to hand but I think it took a good fortnight between order and delivery. Unfortunately the similarities between my last order and this case are too similar - except when my canvas was delivered I couldn't fault the quality.

I decided I wouldn't use them again, not because of any problem with the product, but because I had a client chasing me for that canvas. I felt powerless - I couldn't deliver the canvas to my customer and all I could do was chase Lee. When it comes to business I couldn't afford to potentially annoy my customers by not delivering the product through no fault of my own, so switched supplier. I didn't feel the need to 'out' them on here as my experience may have been a one off.

So why did I then recommend them to JT? Well, I'd seen the threads on here where Lee had acknowledged the prior issues and said they'd been rectified. That combined with the quality of the product I had past received meant I'd suggest them to JT.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem like anything's changed. Once JT started telling me about all the delays and false promises regarding the delivery I just hoped the product would leave him happy, but now he's finally got it unfortunately the quality doesn't appear to be up to scratch either.

I have no grievance with Lee. I met him at the TP convention last year and found him very helpful. He did a great talk about preparing photos for printing and supplied a studio and model for us all to practice with.

What upsets me is the response from him to this thread. I know how businesses are finding things tough these days, and closing the studio and selling off part of your business shows how difficult it must be for him at the moment. Surely then it's in their best interests to keep existing customers happy and resolve any issues promptly - and not make thinly veiled accusations that imply your customers are fraudulently obtaining duplicate canvases, by replying to emails promptly before an annoyance escalates into a grievance and generally looking after your customers the way you too would hope to be looked after if you have a problem.

This whole 'prove you didn't receive the canvas' thing is laughable. So what if there is a signed delivery note (even if there is one) - that proves nothing. Once, I ordered a TV from Play.com. On the day of delivery I checked the tracking number to find it had been delivered and signed for. Strange, as there was nobody home that day. After asking the neighbours if they had it (which they hadn't) my wife phoned play to raise a complaint. Whilst she did this, I discovered that parcelforce had taken the tv to the block of flats directly opposite my house, left it in the hallway outside the flat with the same number as my house, and the delivery man had signed for it himself.

Later that night, play phoned back. Did they accuse us of fraud as it had been signed for? No. We were offered a replacement or refund - which we declined as we had located the TV. We still shop wih Play...
 
My experience was similar to yours Nick, lost in the post, although I got the feeling it was not actually lost in the post it just wasnt done in the 1st place.

I post my prints out, and had a lady chasing me earlier this year about it. I felt such a fraud despite having proof of postage as 'I did post it the other day' is a lame excuse. But I was able to send her a copy of the receipt and a day r so later it turned up with the postmark dated the day I sent it out, so she was very happy and pleased - so much so I took a call from her today wanting another session!

I had ordered a few prints from Colourworld earlier this year. Then I ordered an ice block. When it came, I was unhappy with the edges looking chipped and the image slightly coming away. Sent a couple of pics to them and got a very quich response apologising and getting a replacement despatched. I have no issues with people making mistakes, and when handled like Colourworld actually make me more keen to use them, as I know that when there are issues they will be sorted.

Lee, FWIW, your reply has not put you in a good light at all. As others have said, your product is pretty good generally, but service is equally as important.
 
ISL-Studio said:
Its always the case that of the hundreds (possibly thousands) of satisfied customers, it tends to be the ones with issues who write in the public domain like TP.
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To be fair mate that statement is a bit of a kop out, just take a look in the shoppers and suppliers section on here, you will find numerous praise for lots of different suppliers, i have personally taken recommendations from that section when folk have left good feedback and i've been very pleased, so to say people only post when a company gives them a hard time is b****x, as for defending yourself at the OK corral i think you have well and truly been caught with your chaps around your ankles on that one :thumbsdown:
 
I think The Reverend JT is owed an apology, a refund, & a free canvas. Somehow I doubt they will be forthcoming.....
 
I'm not after anything for free, that's not why i did this thread, but i do want what i've paid for, and not to be insulted would be a nice bonus.

Cheers to people for supporting my plight, and to Nick T - although i keep telling you you've got nothing to apologise for at all!

Lee/Steve - i hope you read this and understand where i'm coming from, i didn't take pleasure in telling people the situation but you forced my hand by not replying to my emails, even when it was clear you were in the wrong and i was still giving you another chance to right it, only to be ignored again. I most certainly didn't take pleasure in you essentially calling me a liar/thief, nor the fact that you clearly thought me stupid by insinuating i would sign a bloody fed-ex delivery note and then try to say it hadn't been delivered, how stupid do you think I am?

Anyway i'm not here for name calling, although i would have happily done that this morning such was my anger at your flippant response - however In the interest of getting what i originally asked for I would like to give you an out (not that i think you deserve it): If you can get to me the product i ordered by this friday, a refund for the fed ex delivery i paid extra for seeing as though it is so late, and an apology for the way you've acted toward me - then I will inform the threads you've managed to supply me with what i ordered eventually, and i will let the threads sink. I think this is more than fair considering how much i've had to put up with, and will give you the opportunity to redeem yourself. Plus you can pick up the patchy canvas whenever you want - seeing as though you're the only people that seem to find it acceptable as a product.

after friday, my goodwill disappears entirely - and i will happily spend a few hours a week telling people what i think of how i've been treated.

I don't think i can say fairer than that.

let's see how determined you are to keeping 'hundreds, possibly thousands' of customers happy

JT
 
not had the best experiences with Togsprint either. A shame really as their service looked good on paper.

I'm shocked by their reply on this thread though. Lee/ Steve, you have to realise that Fedex' service is YOUR service, IF (and it seems like a big if) they keep losing packages you have to appreciate that this is going to affect your business. go elsewhere, do anything, but don't question the customers story, especially not on a public form! Time to review your business practices it seems.

Afraid to say i've learnt my lesson and in a market where plenty of alternatives exist i've had no reason to use Togprint again. I'm just glad i now know ISL are the same company!
 
On a note about customer services.

A few years ago I ordered a few hundred holiday snaps from Photobox. They were to be sent to my GFs work.

Photobox sent them in two packages.

One arrived and one didn't. I emailed Photobox and the same day they sent out a copy of the ones that were missing (Recorded delivery) at no charge and an apology.

A few days later the original set that was missing was found at my GFs work. It had somehow got wedged in the basket that the post comes through from the other side.

I phoned Photobox to apologise and to pay for the extra set.

They refused point blank to accept any payment from me. That is what I call quality service.

With regard to the company here; if I was them I would have asked the OP to email through a photo of the canvas. Then when I could see that it was faulty - apologise like hell and explain that you were refund the cost (including the Fed-Ex charge).

Then I would have had another one printed and couriered down on a same day delivery.
 
ISL-Studio said:
This is how we believe the story told unfolded.

another was produced (in fully acceptable condition), carefully packaged and despatched, and according to Fedex was received and signed for - they have a Proof of Delivery at the correct address. When the customer stated he had not received it, we were somewhat surprised - Fedex are doing further checks to see if fraud or theft has been committed by someone. Further, we produced yet another in fully acceptable condition and sent it via Royal Mail, which was received by the customer. At the time of writing this, we are awaiting further information from Fedex but are not prepared to send out yet another canvas if the likelihood is for it to go missing. As a token of good faith, we discussed the matter and agreed to refund the customer if he could prove he had not received it, or would send the alleged faulty product back to us for examination. Its a difficult situation - we have a signed POD saying the customer HAS has the product (the second canvas sent out by Fedex) plus the one delivered by Royal Mail.
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if you have the signed delivery note from fedex, they can send you that via fax or email, though ive had stuff go awol with 'signed' delivery notes when we havent received the product, so its not a given that it has arrived at all. You should really ask royal mail to send signed pod to compare if youre so sure it was delivered.


all that aside, the canvas doesnt look right, whats likely wrong with it?
 
matty said:
if you have the signed delivery note from fedex, they can send you that via fax or email, though ive had stuff go awol with 'signed' delivery notes when we havent received the product, so its not a given that it has arrived at all. You should really ask royal mail to send signed pod to compare if youre so sure it was delivered.


all that aside, the canvas doesnt look right, whats likely wrong with it?
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He stated that he had a signed POD from fed-ex - if that's the case then; a) why haven't i seen it yet, and b) why on earth would you send out another canvas if you thought one had been delivered?


Just for the record, I've still not had an email or a reply from ISL/Togsprint or any contact whatsoever to resolve this - even after my post on the last page with a possible resolution to it all.

beyond a joke.
 
In the interest of fairness (and i really don't want this to be some sort of witch-hunt) - Lee has emailed me and taken me up on the offer from the previous page of providing me with a non-patchy canvas before friday and has kindly offered a refund as well.

I'm please they've taken the opportunity to rectify it and i look forward to seeing the canvas as like i said in the op - the quality of the printing, ink and frame of the canvas they sent me appeared to be of very good quality, just the coating which seemed to be patchy.

i have also promised to send back the patchy canvas if i get the new one on time and if they are happy to give me a refund then i am happy to pay to send the canvas back to them.

JT
 
The Reverend JT said:
In the interest of fairness (and i really don't want this to be some sort of witch-hunt) - Lee has emailed me and taken me up on the offer from the previous page of providing me with a non-patchy canvas before friday and has kindly offered a refund as well.

I'm please they've taken the opportunity to rectify it and i look forward to seeing the canvas as like i said in the op - the quality of the printing, ink and frame of the canvas they sent me appeared to be of very good quality, just the coating which seemed to be patchy.

i have also promised to send back the patchy canvas if i get the new one on time and if they are happy to give me a refund then i am happy to pay to send the canvas back to them.

JT
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Had they done this to begin with, maybe they'd have gained a few customers instead of losing a few.
 
So Lee read my last post then :grin:

Even so, it's too little too late, if you ask me. And why the hell do they want you to return the ruined canvas?

I’ll be very interested indeed to find out if a canvas arrives by Friday, & what quality it is….. or will Fed Ex will 'lose' it yet again?
 
The canvas arrived today - a day earlier than i asked for, and is in a much better condition than the first one i received, and one which i'd be happy to give to my client.

I also got an email from paypal saying that togsprint were giving me a refund for the full amount, it hasn't hit my account yet but i think that is paypal and not togsprint.

Lee has been most helpful since this thread prompted such debate, i just wish it didn't have to come to putting this up, but all in all they have rectified the situation and i now have a good product in a good condition which i am most happy with.
 
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