Trouble Adjusting to 40D

[The23rdman]

Okay, so I've had my 40D over a week now and taken a far few shots with it. The problem is I'm finding it harder to take sharp and crisp shots than with my 350D. Is this normal?

I tried a low light shoot last night - admittedly with candles - for my 52, but it was an epic failure. Pictures were very ugly and noisy.

I expected to be bowled over by the quality difference and I can see a depth to the shots that wasn't there before, but the crispness doesn't seem to be apparent.

I shoot exclusively in RAW.

 

[Orange Peel]

Did your 350D have camera processing enabled to sharpen the images?

I find my images a little soft on my 40D but that's expected as I have everything turned off. A quick unsharpen mask makes everything pop and look great.

 

[The23rdman]

I'm not sure, TBH. I always shot in RAW with the 350D too, but that could easily be it. It's when I chimp and see soft images it puts me off.

 

[AndyWest]

Thinking about it i was never happy about the sharpness in a lot of cases when i had my 40D!?!?

 

[Swiss Toni]

It's when I chimp and see soft images it puts me off.

I use a 40D and had a 350D before that and my advice is, don't take any notice of the preview screen, once you get the raw files into your processing software they will be completely different.

 

[Dogfish_magnet]

I'm not sure, TBH. I always shot in RAW with the 350D too, but that could easily be it. It's when I chimp and see soft images it puts me off.

A raw image is just that raw - the camera wont do anything to it, it leaves it upto you to do the processing outside of the camera, you will need to sharpen the images (after resizing) and add any colour / contrast changes etc using software.

 

[The23rdman]

I use a 40D and had a 350D before that and my advice is, don't take any notice of the preview screen, once you get the raw files into your processing software they will be completely different.

A raw image is just that raw - the camera wont do anything to it, it leaves it upto you to do the processing outside of the camera, you will need to sharpen the images (after resizing) and add any colour / contrast changes etc using software.

I think the issue is that the 350D does sharpen in camera for preview, but the 40D doesn't appear too.

 

[EOS_JD]

i'd say the difference in IQ comparing like for like is not huge - However the 40D should be easier to use and you should be able to get shots the 350D wouldn't. It depends on your use.

 

[The23rdman]

I bought it primarily for it's better high iso performance - where it has so far proved to be massively better than the 350D - and it's more rugged build, so here I'm very happy. I'm sure I'll get used to it. Thanks peeps.

 

[PsiFox]

I think the issue is that the 350D does sharpen in camera for preview, but the 40D doesn't appear too.

The images displayed on the back screen when shot in raw are actually a lo-res jpeg that is embedded in the raw file. This jpeg is subject to any in camera enhancements set up.

 

[Dogfish_magnet]

I think the issue is that the 350D does sharpen in camera for preview, but the 40D doesn't appear too.

The 40D will apply the in camera settings to the image you are viewing on the camera screen and you can set how much processing is carried out - sharpness - picture style etc but these wont be carried over into the raw image

 

[MJ Stebbings]

Its a different animal really compared to the 350D
I upgraded to the 40D from the 350D and found the results to be alot better once i had done some PP on the Raw files.

You will get the hang of it. Maybe some of it is from camera shake/movement due to the extra weight and different way you hold it now that its bigger? Its possible

Mike

 

[The23rdman]

The images displayed on the back screen when shot in raw are actually a lo-res jpeg that is embedded in the raw file. This jpeg is subject to any in camera enhancements set up.

Makes sense.

The 40D will apply the in camera settings to the image you are viewing on the camera screen and you can set how much processing is carried out - sharpness - picture style etc but these wont be carried over into the raw image

So I can go in and custom change them to get a bit of a sharpen? Is that in the custom functions? I know, RTFM.

Its a different animal really compared to the 350D
I upgraded to the 40D from the 350D and found the results to be alot better once i had done some PP on the Raw files.

You will get the hang of it. Maybe some of it is from camera shake/movement due to the extra weight and different way you hold it now that its bigger? Its possible

Mike

Very possible. It is a very different beast to hold and get my head around.

 

[Ambermile]

Maybe it's partly you... I was very happy, blissfully unaware of any probs with my 300D fora couple of years... thought I was pretty good actually Then I came here, saw what others were doing and had a few pointed pointers and now realise just how absolute poo my previous pictures really were.

Now I got a couple of Nikons and things are looking up but I most definitely am a *whole lot* more critical now than I ever was... especially with my own stuff. My point is that maybe you just got a better eye and with new kit it shows up more as you are just not used to it yet?

Arthur

 

[The23rdman]

A fair point, Arthur, but my eye hasn't gotten that much better in a week, mate!

 

[Ambermile]

A fair point, Arthur, but my eye hasn't gotten that much better in a week, mate!

No - but maybe you are so familiar with the 350D that you're possibly not even *seeing* it any more? However, from your initial post, you are most definitely scrutinising the 40D?

 

[The23rdman]

No - but maybe you are so familiar with the 350D that you're possibly not even *seeing* it any more? However, from your initial post, you are most definitely scrutinising the 40D?

No, it's not this, Arthur. I scrutinise my shots anyway. I think it's a combination of the chimp view looking different and a little camera shake as I'm not used to the camera yet.

 

[Ambermile]

Ah well, was worth a try!

Arthur

 

[trapper501]

I have a new 50D and the pictures on the rear screen are far better than I can get out of the raw files.

I think I need to learn a lot about DPP, but is there some way of finding out what settings the camera is using, because I like what i see there.

 

[happysnappy]

The screen on both my 40D's always looks soft, seems to be a characteristic of the camera.
You can alter the onboard sharpening though, which on mine I've turned up a touch as mine are both soft compared to my old 20D.

 

[whatdoesthisbutt]

The 40D will apply the in camera settings to the image you are viewing on the camera screen and you can set how much processing is carried out - sharpness - picture style etc but these wont be carried over into the raw image

Thats my issue. When I chimp, ive taken some fantastic shots.....that is until I look at the RAW and realise they are nowhere near as sharp. I thought about taking RAW+JPEG to see what CAN be acheived. I just have to sit down with the RAW and work out how much of the changes made to the JPEG I actualy want the image to end up with.
I didnt realise you could turn off/reduce the in-camera adjustments :bang:

 

[Dogfish_magnet]

Thats my issue. When I chimp, ive taken some fantastic shots.....that is until I look at the RAW and realise they are nowhere near as sharp. I thought about taking RAW+JPEG to see what CAN be acheived. I just have to sit down with the RAW and work out how much of the changes made to the JPEG I actualy want the image to end up with.
I didnt realise you could turn off/reduce the in-camera adjustments :bang:

Have a look here it may help

 

[HoppyUK]

Forgive me if I've got this wrong, but I wonder if you are understanding what is happening with Raw files, with JPEGs and what you are seeing on the back of the camera.

Raw is the unprocessed data file that the camera records. You can't actually see it until it has been processed into a visible format, usually a JPEG.

What you are seeing on the camera's LCD is a very small JPEG that has been processed according to the image parameters that you have set on the camera, eg Picture Styles (sharpening, contrast, saturation and colour tone) and White Balance etc. By the way, I think Canon standardised their Picture Styles parameters after the 350D, in other words +3 on the 40D's contrast slider will be a little bit different to +3 on your 350D, and so on.

When you import your Raw file into post processing software, very often the software will pick up on the JPEG parameters that have been tagged to the image. If you get your images up on screen and the Raw and JPEGs look identical, this is what is happening (assuming you do the sensible thing and shoot both Raw and JPEG simultaneously). It does this because it assumes the in-camera settings will be there or thereabouts and so you won't have to start from scratch. However, the Raw file is untouched underneath this and you can go in and fiddle with them as much as you like.

Whatever the situation, your 40D is a fantastic camera and a big step up from a 350D. I think the thing for you to do is find yourself a decent target image - pretty much anything will do - put the camera on a tripod and adjust the exposure so you're happy. Lock everything on manual. Then go into Picture Styles and take a series of pictures with the different sliders at min and max.

You will see a dramatic difference. Zoom in to see different sharpness levels at work. You will quickly see the kind of changes you like, and you can set up to three different combinations in the C1, C2 and C3 custom settings (you can customise all sorts of other settings in there too). I think it is fair to say that if you go too far away from the standard default settings (+3 on sharpness and zero on the others I think) then you might want to double-check on a different test subject to make sure you're happy, but whatever you do will only apply to the JPEG image - the one that you see on the LCD and output as a JPEG - and the Raw file will remain untouched so you can still do what you like to that afterwards.

 

[Andy]

The LCD screen isnt the best on the 40D. Most images arent sharp when viewing but like said before they look a lot better on your computer.

 

[mikeyb]

Hi,

if using RAW files then you should disable the Auto Lighting Optimizer ( ALO ) and Highlight Tone Priority ( HTP ) as they both increase noise in RAW files.

It's the same for the 50D.

Mike.

 

[mikeyb]

I have a new 50D and the pictures on the rear screen are far better than I can get out of the raw files.

I think I need to learn a lot about DPP, but is there some way of finding out what settings the camera is using, because I like what i see there.

Hi,

see my post above regarding ALO and HTP and also have a read of my thread HERE about my frustrations with the 50D with RAW files and processing


Thanks,

Mike.

 

[trapper501]

Hi,

see my post above regarding ALO and HTP and also have a read of my thread HERE about my frustrations with the 50D with RAW files and processing


Thanks,

Mike.

Canon Bob ran me through those changes but the defaults on my camera already had them disabled so I didn't need to change anything.

I don't shoot raw+jpeg as hoppy suggests, wouldn't that use up an awful lot of memory?

My problem is how I get back to the settings used by the camera as I like those, I'm not getting on well with DPP

 

[HoppyUK]

I have a new 50D and the pictures on the rear screen are far better than I can get out of the raw files.

I think I need to learn a lot about DPP, but is there some way of finding out what settings the camera is using, because I like what i see there.

DPP is very good

If you like what you see on the LCD, that's exactly what you'll get from the Raw file when you open it in DPP. It picks up the processing parameters that you have set on the camera and these are tagged to the image and it's presented to you like that as a starting point. If you like it, keep it, or go in and tweak it as much as you like - the Raw file underneath is untouched.

Then again, if you do like the image you see on the LCD, then just shoot JPEG and that's exactly what you'll get. The only reason for shooting Raw is so that you can make changes to the file after shooting, either because you've made a mistake or need to make big changes in post processing that are beyond what you can do in-camera.

 

[trapper501]

ah, reading your link now I see you were having the same trouble. I'll set to neutral.

 

[mikeyb]

Canon Bob ran me through those changes but the defaults on my camera already had them disabled so I didn't need to change anything.

I don't shoot raw+jpeg as hoppy suggests, wouldn't that use up an awful lot of memory?

My problem is how I get back to the settings used by the camera as I like those, I'm not getting on well with DPP

Hi,

I NEVER shoot jpeg anyway. Isn't there a factory setting option somewhere within the menu for setting it back to default?

I hated DPP at first as well, now it is all I use and process most of my pics in under a couple of minutes or so, I also use Neat Image Noise Reduction software to clean up any noise I might get in my images, which with the 50D is usually a necessity and I tend to do it on most images I take even down to 400 ISO.

Mike.

Mike.

 

[trapper501]

DPP is very good

If you like what you see on the LCD, that's exactly what you'll get from the Raw file when you open it in DPP. It picks up the processing parameters that you have set on the camera and these are tagged to the image and it's presented to you like that as a starting point. If you like it, keep it, or go in and tweak it as much as you like - the Raw file underneath is untouched.

that's not quite how i read that link, and I don't seem to get DPP pics like that.

DPP is very good
Then again, if you do like the image you see on the LCD, then just shoot JPEG and that's exactly what you'll get. The only reason for shooting Raw is so that you can make changes to the file after shooting, either because you've made a mistake or need to make big changes in post processing that are beyond what you can do in-camera.

I might go back to Jpeg as I'm rubbish at DPP, but given that some of my shots come from places I'll probably only ever visit once in my lifetime, and are of things I may never see again, I felt learning to use raw properly was a safer bet than relying on jpeg.

 

[SAuchterlonie]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the sharpness of the 40D, check out included photo and others on my Flickr, but don't trust the screen on the back of the camera as it isn't the best! Unlike the new 50D, 5DmkII and 7D which have 'inline' pixels and give a really sharp display the 40D has the old style screen and the pixels are out of alignment so even the straightest edge will look soft/wobbly on the back of the camera.

As people have said if you are shooting raw then they will need sharpening up in post. As for JPG it will be doing whatever is setup in the options in the camera, these include sharpening, noise reduction, colour changes, etc.

What I did notice is that the better the lens on the 40D the better the quality of the image, this is even more true of the 50D which has to have a great lens on as its pushing the megapixel limit.

Don't know if this helps, but in the end don't trust the display!

Simon

 

[trapper501]

Even the simplest things on DPP are defeating me, like it always opens an adjustment box just off screen lower right so I can't read the sliders nor move them. Try as I might I can't get this box to move around the screen.

 

[HoppyUK]

Canon Bob ran me through those changes but the defaults on my camera already had them disabled so I didn't need to change anything.

I don't shoot raw+jpeg as hoppy suggests, wouldn't that use up an awful lot of memory?

My problem is how I get back to the settings used by the camera as I like those, I'm not getting on well with DPP

No, JPEGs use relatively little memory, which is the whole point of them. If you shoot Raw anyway, which means big files in direct proportion to the number of pixels, then adding a JPEG to that doesn't make much odds.

JPEGs are small and memory is cheap

 

[trapper501]

ok, I'll try raw + jpeg. for a bit. I only have 4 Gb cards, but I'm not going anywhere exciting until April so it will give me time to practice and if necessary get some 8 Gb cards.

 

[The23rdman]

Forgive me if I've got this wrong, but I wonder if you are understanding what is happening with Raw files, with JPEGs and what you are seeing on the back of the camera.

Raw is the unprocessed data file that the camera records. You can't actually see it until it has been processed into a visible format, usually a JPEG.

What you are seeing on the camera's LCD is a very small JPEG that has been processed according to the image parameters that you have set on the camera, eg Picture Styles (sharpening, contrast, saturation and colour tone) and White Balance etc. By the way, I think Canon standardised their Picture Styles parameters after the 350D, in other words +3 on the 40D's contrast slider will be a little bit different to +3 on your 350D, and so on.

When you import your Raw file into post processing software, very often the software will pick up on the JPEG parameters that have been tagged to the image. If you get your images up on screen and the Raw and JPEGs look identical, this is what is happening (assuming you do the sensible thing and shoot both Raw and JPEG simultaneously). It does this because it assumes the in-camera settings will be there or thereabouts and so you won't have to start from scratch. However, the Raw file is untouched underneath this and you can go in and fiddle with them as much as you like.

Whatever the situation, your 40D is a fantastic camera and a big step up from a 350D. I think the thing for you to do is find yourself a decent target image - pretty much anything will do - put the camera on a tripod and adjust the exposure so you're happy. Lock everything on manual. Then go into Picture Styles and take a series of pictures with the different sliders at min and max.

You will see a dramatic difference. Zoom in to see different sharpness levels at work. You will quickly see the kind of changes you like, and you can set up to three different combinations in the C1, C2 and C3 custom settings (you can customise all sorts of other settings in there too). I think it is fair to say that if you go too far away from the standard default settings (+3 on sharpness and zero on the others I think) then you might want to double-check on a different test subject to make sure you're happy, but whatever you do will only apply to the JPEG image - the one that you see on the LCD and output as a JPEG - and the Raw file will remain untouched so you can still do what you like to that afterwards.

Excellent advice as always, Richard, thank you.

Hi,

if using RAW files then you should disable the Auto Lighting Optimizer ( ALO ) and Highlight Tone Priority ( HTP ) as they both increase noise in RAW files.

It's the same for the 50D.

Mike.

I can't find ALO anywhere. Which menu is it on?

 

[mikeyb]

Excellent advice as always, Richard, thank you.
I can't find ALO anywhere. Which menu is it on?

Hi,

on my 50D its in the custom function ( Cn) menu under 'Image' and setting 4, it follows the HTP setting in the menu.

Mike.

 

[Byker28i]

I seem to remember when I had my 40D that someone on here said about using a custom picture style and adjusting the sharpness/colour on that, as it then only affected the jpeg for the lcd image, and not the raw.

 

[mikeyb]

I seem to remember when I had my 40D that someone on here said about using a custom picture style and adjusting the sharpness/colour on that, as it then only affected the jpeg for the lcd image, and not the raw.

Hi,

that's true, you can also download a lot of these picture style presets from the canon website.

Mike

 

[The23rdman]

Hi,

on my 50D its in the custom function ( Cn) menu under 'Image' and setting 4, it follows the HTP setting in the menu.

Mike.

tis not there. Perhaps the 40D doesn't have it??

Hi,

that's true, you can also download a lot of these picture style presets from the canon website.

Mike

Excellent!