Upgrade advice

Messages
19
Edit My Images
Yes
Hi everyone . So after buying my first DSLR secondhand two years ago (canon 600D) I'm finally ready for an upgrade. I'd like to have something suited to both video + photos as the 600D is a bit of a dinosaur now.. I'll try and keep this short as possible although there's a few things to mention so this might be quite an essay .

My other want's are-
4K video.
Must include kit lens for price (max £750)
Picture profiles/logs (not essential).
Decent autofocus (must!!!)
Good for both stills and videos.
As future proof as possible (not even a thing I know lol).
Mirrorless because of size although I might consider another DSLR.

My max budget isn't that large although if I also sell my 600D I can spend more say up to £750, think I've got no chance getting anything decent for closer to £500. I have no problem with buying secondhand as well. I've looked at the sony a6000, lumix G90, lumix G80, eos M50, and finally the sony A6100. I've found the a6000 isn't much of an upgrade over the 600D in many ways, the G90 and G80 are nice but seem a bit lacking in some things, the m50 hasn't got decent 4K video settings (no D.P autofocus and large crop etc).

It seems the a6100 is the closest to all my wants at £750 with a kit lens only downside is the lack of picture profiles, I'd rather not spend that much but I know it's a relatively small budget for a camera so I'll probably have to spend that. I'd love to hear people's thoughts or suggestions for alternatives, it seems like my ideal cameras are out of my budget as even secondhand they go for around £1000 (GH5, A7's, cannon R's etc). Sucks the A6100 is out of stock everywhere as well!.

Thanks
 
Last edited:
Messages
95
Name
Richard
Edit My Images
Yes
Don't forget Fuji. Meets all your requirements, and possibly have the best film simulations in the business. You should be able to get a used XT2 or XT30 for your price range. The "kit" 18-55mm is superb. eg this pristine XT30
 
OP
A
Messages
19
Edit My Images
Yes
Don't forget Fuji. Meets all your requirements, and possibly have the best film simulations in the business. You should be able to get a used XT2 or XT30 for your price range. The "kit" 18-55mm is superb. eg this pristine XT30
I did very briefly look at some fuji's, I may be wrong but they seemed more expensive than models I was looking at, anyway I'll check again! My mind has been boggled by all the comparisons now. thanks!
 
Last edited:
Messages
771
Name
Clint
Edit My Images
Yes
Is 4K essential? Many cameras claim 4K but with many compromises like limited recording time or the crop mode you mentioned. Have you got a decent computer to edit 4K files? Is in camera stabilisation or lens stabilisation a requirement, some models do better than others if you are filming on the go. If you intend to have it on a tripod then this doesn’t matter. Do you need both a mic and headphone socket? Have you considered action cameras like the GoPro?
I am not that familiar with video editing but just some thoughts of mine that might help to narrow down your search.
 
OP
A
Messages
19
Edit My Images
Yes
Is 4K essential? Many cameras claim 4K but with many compromises like limited recording time or the crop mode you mentioned. Have you got a decent computer to edit 4K files? Is in camera stabilisation or lens stabilisation a requirement, some models do better than others if you are filming on the go. If you intend to have it on a tripod then this doesn’t matter. Do you need both a mic and headphone socket? Have you considered action cameras like the GoPro?
I am not that familiar with video editing but just some thoughts of mine that might help to narrow down your search.

I don't want to get into the whole 1080p-4k debate as it's endless with valid points on both sides, but as I intend to keep the camera for many years of use it must have decent 4K video. I do have a powerful P.C and gpu - RTX 2080 and have been doing 4K edits (with 1080p upscaled from my 600D) in resolve etc. Ideally I do need at least a 3.5mm mic input, I already have a rode mic. oh and ibis isn't needed. Go pro is a no go , I want more hybrid camera features not just for action footage as such.
 
Last edited:
Messages
353
Name
Morris
Edit My Images
Yes
Have you considered the Olympus EM1 MkII?

Mic input, 4K video recording in both 4K UHD and 4K DCI flavours, with a 24p option and recording at a maximum bit rate of approx. 237 Mbps, together with the option to extract stills from captured footage. OM-Log: Log shooting is now supported. An LUT (Look Up Table) file is also available for grading tasks using Blackmagic Design's DaVinci Resolve.
 
OP
A
Messages
19
Edit My Images
Yes
What lenses do you have for your 600d?
Currently I have the 18-55mm kit and some old sigma 200mm zoom lens so I'm not worried about losing out on lenses. I was going to get the nifty fifty recently but then decided I'd rather upgrade first as I'll either keep the 600D as backup/ for stills or sell it going towards the new camera.
 
OP
A
Messages
19
Edit My Images
Yes
Have you considered the Olympus EM1 MkII?

Mic input, 4K video recording in both 4K UHD and 4K DCI flavours, with a 24p option and recording at a maximum bit rate of approx. 237 Mbps, together with the option to extract stills from captured footage. OM-Log: Log shooting is now supported. An LUT (Look Up Table) file is also available for grading tasks using Blackmagic Design's DaVinci Resolve.
I'll check it out! I think my thoughts have been more based towards canon and sony to begin with due to the reports of having the best A.F, but I am open minded
 
Messages
239
Name
Mikey
Edit My Images
Yes
Currently I have the 18-55mm kit and some old sigma 200mm zoom lens so I'm not worried about losing out on lenses. I was going to get the nifty fifty recently but then decided I'd rather upgrade first as I'll either keep the 600D as backup/ for stills or sell it going towards the new camera.
Ah I was going to say if you had EF lenses then maybe you could get an EOS RP 2nd hand or grey with a cheap adapter just above your budget and then in time be able to build up your lens collection from there. Your EF-S lens would still work but I'm not sure if it would use enough of the sensor to give 4K video. Alternatively well below budget would be an EOS 250d if you can get a body only you can easily reuse your lenses and at least get 4K video.
 
OP
A
Messages
19
Edit My Images
Yes
Ah I was going to say if you had EF lenses then maybe you could get an EOS RP 2nd hand or grey with a cheap adapter just above your budget and then in time be able to build up your lens collection from there. Your EF-S lens would still work but I'm not sure if it would use enough of the sensor to give 4K video. Alternatively well below budget would be an EOS 250d if you can get a body only you can easily reuse your lenses and at least get 4K video.

I did look at the 250D.. If i remember correctly the downside is when shooting 4K just like the eos M50 it's not in D.P autofocus only contrast autofocus, so the 4K isn't great unless your doing manual focus I hear (which is what I'm dealing with using my 600D although currently at 1080p). The RP is the same.

I think I've just picked that akward segment of the market where they don't really want people to buy the midrange and would rather you opt for the high end.. unfortunately my max budget just doesn't really seem enough for any highish end camera but that is my limit. All the brands seem to do it for some reason but IMO they've over saturated the high end to where they can't allow more features in lower end models.
 
OP
A
Messages
19
Edit My Images
Yes
Have you considered the Olympus EM1 MkII?

Mic input, 4K video recording in both 4K UHD and 4K DCI flavours, with a 24p option and recording at a maximum bit rate of approx. 237 Mbps, together with the option to extract stills from captured footage. OM-Log: Log shooting is now supported. An LUT (Look Up Table) file is also available for grading tasks using Blackmagic Design's DaVinci Resolve.
I think the EM1 mk2 is worthy after looking into it! . So currently the a6100 and em-1 mk2 are leading the race. Now looking into the fujis. Cheers
 
Messages
353
Name
Morris
Edit My Images
Yes
I think the EM1 mk2 is worthy after looking into it! . So currently the a6100 and em-1 mk2 are leading the race. Now looking into the fujis. Cheers
EM1 MkII: This rundown of what is available after the most recent update might be helpful. I'm not a video user myself so can't add any personal experience but I can tell you the AF in photography mode is very good. Good luck in your search.
 
Messages
26,992
Name
Alan
Edit My Images
No
I think the EM1 mk2 is worthy after looking into it! . So currently the a6100 and em-1 mk2 are leading the race. Now looking into the fujis. Cheers
I'm not into video. I do like the RF style Panasonic cameras and currently have GX80 and GX9. I don't know if these would be of interest.
 
OP
A
Messages
19
Edit My Images
Yes
sony a6400 with kit lens is 759 on einfinity
Wow nice find. Just had a look, saw it was an American site but is the UK section of it and it does say including import tax and delivery!!!
 
OP
A
Messages
19
Edit My Images
Yes
I'm not into video. I do like the RF style Panasonic cameras and currently have GX80 and GX9. I don't know if these would be of interest.
I did look at them and the g100 too. I think it's obviously subjective but a lot of the Panasonic's seem to be video focused and are not always as good at stills.. it's really hard getting everything in one package I understand that I'm almost asking the impossible.. the deal mav just posted on here is the best deal I've seen for the features I'd like.
 
Messages
26,992
Name
Alan
Edit My Images
No
I don't believe Panasonic MFT cameras are any worse for stills IQ than Olympus unless you're looking at JPEG and film emulations and nit picking those. As stills taking cameras using either the 16mp Panasonic sensor or the 20mp Sony sensor differences are surely going to be minimal and due to in camera noise reduction, WB, sharpening, colour profiles and other such in camera wizardry and I'd guess possibly largely irrelevant for raw?

One thing I don't like about the A6xxx series is that there aren't two top of camera or there abouts controls, only one, and instead you have to use the back wheel. I much prefer the handling of the Panasonic RF style cameras but they are of course MFT and not APS-C.
 
OP
A
Messages
19
Edit My Images
Yes
I don't believe Panasonic MFT cameras are any worse for stills IQ than Olympus unless you're looking at JPEG and film emulations and nit picking those. As stills taking cameras using either the 16mp Panasonic sensor or the 20mp Sony sensor differences are surely going to be minimal and due to in camera noise reduction, WB, sharpening, colour profiles and other such in camera wizardry and I'd guess possibly largely irrelevant for raw?

One thing I don't like about the A6xxx series is that there aren't two top of camera or there abouts controls, only one, and instead you have to use the back wheel. I much prefer the handling of the Panasonic RF style cameras but they are of course MFT and not APS-C.


Didn't mean to diss or say panny's aren't good.. just wrongly or rightly going by what people say generally about micro 4/3rds aren't the best for still images, I've never had a mirrorless so I'm for sure no expert. I probably do more research than the average guy because I geek out in that way, even more so when I need to spend a lot of cash.. I try and look at the broad opinion rather than just trust what one person alone says. Most do give similar image quality so it comes down to what you want to what you can afford.

And I agree every camera has it's faults, the sony a6xxx series are more styled like a bridge/ lower end camera, they don't have the most controls on top that some people who like fujis or canons might be custom to
 
Messages
26,992
Name
Alan
Edit My Images
No
A bit of a late reply but I'll post it anyway.

The thinking is that generally the bigger the sensor the better the image quality and MFT is smaller than FF and also smaller than APS-C. I have MFT and FF and there is IMO a clear advantage for FF if you pixel peep and even if you don't pixel peep IMO there's an easily seen in use advantage for FF in dynamic range.

I think the best way forward is to think about and be honest about the output size and quality you want and need and how the picture will be viewed and work back from that to decide the kit and its settings.
 
OP
A
Messages
19
Edit My Images
Yes
A bit of a late reply but I'll post it anyway.

The thinking is that generally the bigger the sensor the better the image quality and MFT is smaller than FF and also smaller than APS-C. I have MFT and FF and there is IMO a clear advantage for FF if you pixel peep and even if you don't pixel peep IMO there's an easily seen in use advantage for FF in dynamic range.

I think the best way forward is to think about and be honest about the output size and quality you want and need and how the picture will be viewed and work back from that to decide the kit and its settings.

Currently waiting for the BJS V canelo fight so it's a bit late ATM :). I finally have the conclusion to my journey now!!!

I very nearly purchased the sony a6400 with kit lens and almost purchased the fuji X-T30 also with kit lens! it was going to be quite expensive at £750-800 from efinity new or a bit less secondhand for either camera.. on top of that I wanted the normal spare batteries, a few bits and ideally some other lenses after only being stuck with two for all this time. It got pretty damn overwhelming and I kept going way way over my budget no matter what angle I went even without extra items! lots of cameras are currently expensive new or secondhand, I guess due to the chip shortage saga and other factors with the pandemic.

After my research it seemed nearly all of the mid range-ish cameras I was looking at were mostly about 2-3 years old now so are likely to be replaced pretty soon so I'd be making this expensive purchase with the likelihood of a new model very soon for the exact same money! Even though you can never have the latest and greatest for very long just seems a bad time to buy if I'm being honest. So.... while trawling through ebay I found a cheap sony A7 mk1 + 28-70mm kit lens with other filters, bag and bits included (only 800 shutter count in MINT condition). I made an offer and it was accepted, so I purchased it and it arrived yesterday.. I understand the controversial purchase after insisting that I wanted 4K video and certain other specs.. but I decided long term I would like a full frame setup ideally the a7 mk3 but wanted to build the ecosystem first as it's tremendously more than I could afford up front. With all the spare money I've already ordered a few vintage lenses, adapters and some other kit and still saved literally hundreds of pounds compared to what it was going to cost going with what I was looking at buying..

My plan is to get the sony A7 mk3 or mk3 R-S models hopefully a year down the line (or possibly mark 4's If I'm really lucky), I'd only need to buy the body at that point which many people selling a camera secondhand prefer to do. I've sold my trusty canon 600D today for £200 so I've not spent much at all considering all the things I have and am expecting (hurry up you ebay lens sellers lol). Really happy with the camera and happy getting into the FF world. genuinely BIG THANKS to everyone who had suggestions it was a journey and many nights of head scratching for sure!!. going to post something about wide angle lenses but I imagine i'd need to start another thread. Thanks again everyone and if you've read all of this you deserve a medal :)
 
Last edited:
Messages
26,992
Name
Alan
Edit My Images
No
Great stuff! :D

I have an A7 and I'm happy with the image quality, it may not have a focus system that'll keep up with fast action but it does most of what I want it to do. I also have the 28-70mm kit lens although I hardly ever use it and quite a few old lenses too.

I hope you'll come back and post your thoughts and pictures, I'm particularly interested in your old lenses :D
 
OP
A
Messages
19
Edit My Images
Yes
Great stuff! :D

I have an A7 and I'm happy with the image quality, it may not have a focus system that'll keep up with fast action but it does most of what I want it to do. I also have the 28-70mm kit lens although I hardly ever use it and quite a few old lenses too.

I hope you'll come back and post your thoughts and pictures, I'm particularly interested in your old lenses :D

I'm really happy with it! Massive upgrade over the trusty 600D. As you say isn't impressive for burst shots it's only just faster than my old camera but that was never essential really.

So far I've purchased the helios 44M, carl zeiss jenna tessar 50mm (going to convert it to macro with macro adapter rings). Currently looking at some other £50ish options if you have any recommendations?not sure what other focal lengths to go for and I still have my sigma 70-200mm F4 too. When my budget allows I'd like a wide angle but even secondhand they go for high prices and eventually a better zoom lens to replace the standard kit zoom. After all that in the future I'll upgrade the body and still keep the a7 as a backup so it's a good upgrade path that I can grow with. Thanks for being the main responder on the thread.
 
Last edited:
Messages
26,992
Name
Alan
Edit My Images
No
I tend to like lenses in the 24 to 85mm range and as you have lenses in the 50mm range how about a 24mm to partner them? I think 24 and 50mm make a nice pair but 24mm lenses can be expensive and if so a 28mm could be something to think about? You should be able to find a film era 28mm in budget especially if you can find one in a lens mount you already have an adapter for.

If picking just one lens to go out with I'd probably pick 35 or 50mm and as you already have 50's maybe a 35mm could be another option?

PS.
Wide angle film era primes do crop up now and again. I have a Tamron 17mm and a Vivitar 19mm, both f3.x. The prices seem to have gone up a bit since I bought mine but it might be worth keeping an eye on them as you never know a bargain might crop up.
 
Last edited:
OP
A
Messages
19
Edit My Images
Yes
I tend to like lenses in the 24 to 85mm range and as you have lenses in the 50mm range how about a 24mm to partner them? I think 24 and 50mm make a nice pair but 24mm lenses can be expensive and if so a 28mm could be something to think about? You should be able to find a film era 28mm in budget especially if you can find one in a lens mount you already have an adapter for.

If picking just one lens to go out with I'd probably pick 35 or 50mm and as you already have 50's maybe a 35mm could be another option?

PS.
Wide angle film era primes do crop up now and again. I have a Tamron 17mm and a Vivitar 19mm, both f3.x. The prices seem to have gone up a bit since I bought mine but it might be worth keeping an eye on them as you never know a bargain might crop up.


I was thinking about one 24mm lens and something like a 70-90mm I'd be happy with that selection with what I already have. It might just make sense getting only the best + fastest F1 (ish) 24mm I can afford for now until my wallet has recovered.

Yes I did see some vintage super wide angles, not many but they do come up. unfortunately they cost the same as buying a more modern secondhand 90's - 00's sigma or similar options I've seen those going for around £120 but if I see some things on ebay that accept offers I'll give it try, seem to be having good luck on offers recently after never being a huge fan of the bay. Cheers for the advice
 
Last edited:
Messages
18,130
Name
Toni
Edit My Images
No
You might consider older Sony/Minolta A mount lenses with the LA-EA4 adaptor. You get slightly limited AF and full exit data, but save a lot of cash. I use this setup fairly often with my A7III together with a Tamron 90 macro, Sony 50 f1.4, 70-210 f4, Sigma 12-24. Look for a used adaptor - LCE often have them around £100.
 
OP
A
Messages
19
Edit My Images
Yes
You might consider older Sony/Minolta A mount lenses with the LA-EA4 adaptor. You get slightly limited AF and full exit data, but save a lot of cash. I use this setup fairly often with my A7III together with a Tamron 90 macro, Sony 50 f1.4, 70-210 f4, Sigma 12-24. Look for a used adaptor - LCE often have them around £100.
Cool I'll check that out.. I have seen the sony smart adapters but I've only got dumb ones m42 (x2), EF and FD currently. I did see some great deals on A mount lenses secondhand. Also it seems sigma have the best or at least on my budget best wide angles like the 12-24 you nentioned. missed out on a 10mm eariler for £100 although it wasn't clear whether it was actually true full frame or not as it said canon ef on the advert but after doing research it said efs online. They're normally on a nikon or canon mount so far from what I've seen but that's no problem to buy another dumb adapter. I will splash some cash in a few months on some higher end gear but trying to build up a semi complete kit for peanuts which isn't easy
 
OP
A
Messages
19
Edit My Images
Yes
I had a Sigma 12-24mm for my Canon DSLR, it's a fantastic lens.
Good to know! Pound for pound it's the best deal secondhand I've seen. It's not worth me spending hundreds at this point on a wide angle as I'm just messing around, It would be good to take up to the peak District or for some urban shots etc.
 
Messages
26,992
Name
Alan
Edit My Images
No
I think lenses this wide are amongst some of the most difficult to use well but what you see through the VF is what you'll get so you have to really look and see and understand what you're seeing and why, and these lenses can give a very dramatic look.
 
Messages
18,130
Name
Toni
Edit My Images
No
FWIW I probably wouldn't use the 12-24 for landscape. It's an old lens, resolution in the corners isn't great and it would be very rare to want something so wide. OTOH for interiors it's excellent. 18mm is the widest I'd go for landscape normally, though there will always be exceptions.
 
Messages
26,992
Name
Alan
Edit My Images
No
Mine was certainly relatively soft in the extreme corners but that never mattered to me. The biggest issue IMO on FF was the amount of light fall off in the corners. On the positive side the performance overall is IMO very good considering what it is/was, a 12-24mm FF lens at a decent price. Distortion especially is IMO Voodoo like (in its absence) considering what you got from some other lenses at that time. For example the distortion I got from my Canon 20-35mm f3.5-4.5 (I think) was epic.
 
OP
A
Messages
19
Edit My Images
Yes
Just wondering if you guys can help with some info?

I'm looking at older sigma EX lenses (mk1 and mk2 I think) Only the 12-24mm above are for full frame is that right?. Seems 10-20mm's are only for ASP-C at least in this generation of sigmas..

And.. does anyone know if you can manual focus on all of them? Seems all the canon versions have MF/AF buttons, but the nikons have no such switch! So do they just work on manual without? Am I ok to get a nikon 12-24 and adapt it if it has no MF button.

I'll be using it manually on my Sony a7 mk1 with whatever adapter needed. Thanks
 
Messages
26,992
Name
Alan
Edit My Images
No
Just wondering if you guys can help with some info?

I'm looking at older sigma EX lenses (mk1 and mk2 I think) Only the 12-24mm above are for full frame is that right?. Seems 10-20mm's are only for ASP-C at least in this generation of sigmas..

And.. does anyone know if you can manual focus on all of them? Seems all the canon versions have MF/AF buttons, but the nikons have no such switch! So do they just work on manual without? Am I ok to get a nikon 12-24 and adapt it if it has no MF button.

I'll be using it manually on my Sony a7 mk1 with whatever adapter needed. Thanks
Yup. 10-20mm lenses are APS-C and yes you can focus them all manually. There may not be any direct connection between the focus ring and the lens mechanism, it may be all electronic, it may not be as nice an experience as using a nice manual focus lens but you can still do it :D

Don't know about the Nikon question but someone will but you do have an AF/MF button on the camera too.
 
Last edited:
Messages
18,130
Name
Toni
Edit My Images
No
Seems all the canon versions have MF/AF buttons, but the nikons have no such switch! So do they just work on manual without? Am I ok to get a nikon 12-24 and adapt it if it has no MF button.
Nikon lenses are a can of worms. While the physical mount has remained unchanged since the 50s, the means of communication and control with the camera have changed several times, leading to incompatibilities. AF-G (gelded) lenses are electronically coupled and TBH I can't remember any more whether they focus by wire or mechanically. All the Nikon fit lenses without aperture rings will require an adapter with manual aperture control built in, but other lenses can just use simple dumb adapters. I have some older Nikon lenses here, mostly AI-S mechanical jobs, and they work OK, but I hated using lenses designed for electronic control (including the 12-24 that I had in Nikon mount).

Sigma also make an electronic adapter (the MC-11) that will adapt *some* Canon mount AF lenses to Sony AF, although the responsiveness is slower than ideal. It would be a way to use a Sigma ART lens if you had one in Canon mount. FWIW I tried a MC-11 with a sigma 12-24 that someone sold here, and the 12-24 was truly and horribly decentred - if you buy a used copy then make sure you can return it if you get a poor one - and performance was very spotty too.
 
OP
A
Messages
19
Edit My Images
Yes
Nikon lenses are a can of worms. While the physical mount has remained unchanged since the 50s, the means of communication and control with the camera have changed several times, leading to incompatibilities. AF-G (gelded) lenses are electronically coupled and TBH I can't remember any more whether they focus by wire or mechanically. All the Nikon fit lenses without aperture rings will require an adapter with manual aperture control built in, but other lenses can just use simple dumb adapters. I have some older Nikon lenses here, mostly AI-S mechanical jobs, and they work OK, but I hated using lenses designed for electronic control (including the 12-24 that I had in Nikon mount).

Sigma also make an electronic adapter (the MC-11) that will adapt *some* Canon mount AF lenses to Sony AF, although the responsiveness is slower than ideal. It would be a way to use a Sigma ART lens if you had one in Canon mount. FWIW I tried a MC-11 with a sigma 12-24 that someone sold here, and the 12-24 was truly and horribly decentred - if you buy a used copy then make sure you can return it if you get a poor one - and performance was very spotty too.

Thanks that's really helpful and in-depth.

I thought that might have been the case with the nikon version not having the AF/MF switch, I imagine buying a smart adapter might work ok but I didn't want to spend much to be honest. Unfortunately I missed out on two deals for the canon versions the other day and I can only see a nikon version around the price I'm willing to pay so think I'll leave it for now until I can buy a decent wide angle and major replacement for the sony kit lens.
 
Last edited:
Top