use of Manual Mode

DiddyDave said:
Interesting - I don't know how letting the camera determine exposure cannot be considered an 'auto' mode, whether it's just picking the aperture, the shutter speed or both - surely they are all auto :thinking:

You have Manual focus & Auto-focus don't you? The auto there is only doing one job - I can't see a difference :shrug:

DD
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I guess it depends of your definition of what auto/manual is, if you use A priority and you dial in say 2.8 for a portrait that's what you get, to me that's manually setting the camera yourself, if you were to put the camera in an auto or say P mode it's highly likely you would get another aperture setting, which is the camera doing it,s auto setting, hope that makes sense :)
 
grumpybadger said:
We've had this debate before and it still appears that there are people who shoot manual but just pop the light meter in the view finder in the middle. That's no different to shooting "P".
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Any chance you could easily find a link to that other thread please? I am a beginner but I shoot in manual which I think I have a rough understanding of. I change the ISO, Aperture and Shutter speed depending on the shot I want to take, and generally expose to the center or -1/+1 of the light meter.

Do I fall under your "no difference to shooting P"? if so what am I doing wrong? :(
 
Manual. you have full control over the shutter, aperture and iso.

Any other mode that sets any or all of these far you can be considered auto or semi auto.

I dont understand anyone who thinks we should consider Av to be manual? :) I would refer to it as semi auto :)
 
grumpybadger said:
We've had this debate before and it still appears that there are people who shoot manual but just pop the light meter in the view finder in the middle. That's no different to shooting "P".
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The difference is that in manual, you decide if the aperture or shutter speed needs to change to get the correct exposure, not the camera.

Also if it is not a normal scene, e.g. backlit, you can decide to give an extra stop or two of exposure which the camera would not do.


Steve.
 
TG. said:
I guess it depends of your definition of what auto/manual is, if you use A priority and you dial in say 2.8 for a portrait that's what you get, to me that's manually setting the camera yourself, if you were to put the camera in an auto or say P mode it's highly likely you would get another aperture setting, which is the camera doing it,s auto setting, hope that makes sense :)
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If you put it in the Portrait Scene Mode it will give you a low f/number automatically :D

What's all the fuss about chaps? There is only ever one 'best' exposure, with the various controls set according to preference. Does it matter which method you use to do that?

There are really only two exposure modes:
Manual - you make the camera settings, and they don't change.
All other modes - they change according to light level.
 
grumpybadger said:
Still don't see why Av/Tv with compensation offers you any less control with the right amount of compensation.
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Because in Av for example you are still letting the camera decide on the shutter speed.. thus your trusting the camera to make a decision..

You lose ALL control over shutter speed.. How can you say it doesnt offer any less control when it takes shutter speed away from you?
 
HoppyUK said:
What's all the fuss about chaps? There is only ever one 'best' exposure, with the various controls set according to preference. Does it matter which method you use to do that?
.
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the fuss is about being told NEVER to use Manual..

Going back to the OP

Whilst reading through it come across a part that says No one uses Manual mode and to ignore anyone that says to use this mode (stating they only recommend it as it's all camera had in the 1950's
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HoppyUK said:
There are really only two exposure modes:
Manual - you make the camera settings, and they don't change.
All other modes - they change according to light level.
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That's what I was going to say!

I wonder if some of the descrepencies are because some peeps use matrix/evaluative metering and some use spot.

If you are using spot with AV mode, then if you put the spot on a grey jacket it will set the settings but as you move across the scene to darker and lighter it will change the shutterspeed left right and centre.

Whereas if you have manual mode with spot (which is my default useage) once you set the AP and Shutter speeds you can move all over the scene within reason and whatever the settings SHOW, you can ignore and take your pic knowing it will be fine if the light was the same as your initial setup.
 
Janice said:
Whereas if you have manual mode with spot (which is default useage) once you set the AP and Shutter speeds you can move all over the scene within reason and whatever the settings SHOW, you can ignore and take your pic knowing it will be fine if the light was the same as your initial setup.
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Theres a nice little option on the canon 1dmkIII that lets you set default evaluation mode for Manual.. I have it set to spot for when using manual so when i flip from Av no matter what settings I ahve then it will revert to spot ... I dont recall seeing this option on other cameras I ahve owned :)
 
I still don't see the point in manual most of the time, it's just too much hassle. I generally know what shutter speed and Aperture I want, then just switch to AV or TV depending on what the most important is and bump the iso to get the results I want. The camera can then make the adjustments as the light changes. I just adjust the exposure compensation if I've got a lot of backlight etc.

It doesn't really matter what you use as long as you understand what you are aiming for, how you get the camera to get the settings you want is up to you. All the modes are just different tools to achieve the same result. I think the real trick is learning what metering modes to use.

Manual mode threads are no different to Canon vs Nikon threads in that they just promote a flame war with no conclusion :P

Having said that I do like to use manual when shooting landscapes as ND grads really do confuse the camera :)
 
KIPAX said:
Because in Av for example you are still letting the camera decide on the shutter speed.. thus your trusting the camera to make a decision..

You lose ALL control over shutter speed.. How can you say it doesnt offer any less control when it takes shutter speed away from you?
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When you change the aperture, the shutter speed changes, so you still have control of that.

KIPAX said:
Theres a nice little option on the canon 1dmkIII that lets you set default evaluation mode for Manual.. I have it set to spot for when using manual so when i flip from Av no matter what settings I ahve then it will revert to spot ... I dont recall seeing this option on other cameras I ahve owned :)
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That sounds like an automatic setting, where you are "trusting the camera to make a decision" ;)

DiddyDave said:
I hate Spot metering - never use it

:D

DD
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I knew we would agree on something :D

InkZ said:
...Manual mode threads are no different to Canon vs Nikon threads in that they just promote a flame war with no conclusion...
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^^^ :thumbs:
 
HoppyUK said:
When you change the aperture, the shutter speed changes, so you still have control of that.
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No because you have no idea what its going to change to.. only that its going to change.


HoppyUK said:
That sounds like an automatic setting, where you are "trusting the camera to make a decision" ;)
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You may be missunderstanding me here :)
I trust the camera quite a lot..I use Av most of the time.. I use manual when needs must .. But I am apposed to the conception that Manual should NEVER be used.




.
 
KIPAX said:
You may be missunderstanding me here :)
I trust the camera quite a lot..I use Av most of the time.. I use manual when needs must .. But I am apposed to the conception that Manual should NEVER be used.
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:eek::eek::eek: Yet more agreement from me - what's happening :eek::eek::eek:

I'd better go start a Nikon v other inferior brands thread :lol:

DD
 
KIPAX said:
No because you have no idea what its going to change to.. only that its going to change.
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What do you mean you have no idea what it's going to change to? If I set f/5.6 on Av and get a shutter speed of 1/125sec, I am absolutely certain that if I change to f/4, the shutter speed will move to 1/250sec. It says so in the viewfinder; does it every time. Maybe I've just been lucky ;)

You may be missunderstanding me here :)

I trust the camera quite a lot..I use Av most of the time.. I use manual when needs must .. But I am apposed to the conception that Manual should NEVER be used.
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No, I'm not misunderstanding you. Just doing a Ken Rockwell again. Which is really easy.

Being (a little) more serious, of course manual has its uses but it's an exposure setting mode - set and lock - not a metering mode. It has nothing to do with metering, which is a separate function.

Going back to our Ken, if you read what he says about this stuff from time to time, I think that's what he's driving at.
 
HoppyUK said:
What do you mean you have no idea what it's going to change to? If I set f/5.6 on Av and get a shutter speed of 1/125sec, I am absolutely certain that if I change to f/4, the shutter speed will move to 1/250sec. It says so in the viewfinder; does it every time. Maybe I've just been lucky ;)
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Did you miss a vital bit of information out with the above?

If I am outdoors moving around and I set my camera to Av and f5.6 it will change shutter speed willy nilly in order to get what it thinks is a perfect exposure. depending on what I point at or depending if the light changes..

Thus I have no control over shutter speed and no real idea where its going to end up.. thus its NOT manual control

I think thats the same for everyones camera:) Unless you ahve left a vital bit of info out from your bit? Maybe your just playing word games i dont know.. maybe I am being tricked into saying things I dont know.. But I do know if I go outside wiht my camera now on Av mode and take a picture of a cloud then take a picture of the inside of the bin.. I ahve no idea what shutter the camera will choose..

Again.. I am more than happy to let the camera choose..its a good clever camera... most of the time :)
 
gavinb said:
I feel bad for starting this thread now, seems it brings the worst in people out :bat:
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Nagh not at all :).. good healty debate.. .. no ones being nasty or horrible... I would be more shocked if everyone agreed on every word.. that would be a worry :)


I always wanted to post a thread stating that grass is green... just to see how many people wanted to argue the fact :)
 
Isn't using exposure compensation in AV/TV modes a bit fiddly compared to in manual mode where you just turn the wheel straight off? And next time you have to remember its on dont you? Or is this something which comes with habit?
 
KIPAX said:
Did you miss a vital bit of information out with the above?

If I am outdoors moving around and I set my camera to Av and f5.6 it will change shutter speed willy nilly in order to get what it thinks is a perfect exposure. depending on what I point at or depending if the light changes..

Thus I have no control over shutter speed and no real idea where its going to end up.. thus its NOT manual control

I think thats the same for everyones camera:) Unless you ahve left a vital bit of info out from your bit? Maybe your just playing word games i dont know.. maybe I am being tricked into saying things I dont know.. But I do know if I go outside wiht my camera now on Av mode and take a picture of a cloud then take a picture of the inside of the bin.. I ahve no idea what shutter the camera will choose..

Again.. I am more than happy to let the camera choose..its a good clever camera... most of the time :)
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I'm just being provocative Kipax ;) Because I really don't think it matters.

But I will say that some people (not necessarily on this thread) seem to believe that if they use spot metering and manual setting or whatever clumsy technique, they somewhow get a 'better' exposure when of course it doesn't make any difference at all. Just use whatever mode is quickest/easiest for you.

gavinb said:
I feel bad for starting this thread now, seems it brings the worst in people out :bat:
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No worries Gavin, it's a good thread. At least you didn't mention the 'W' word.

And my grass is brown with yellow bits :D
 
gavinb said:
Wouldn't be anyone arguing really!!! everyone knows its Amber!!!
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Actually - I have my own ideas on what colour grass, and everything else for that matter, actually is - and yes I agree that green is one interpretation of it

If only someone would start that thread - but it'll never happen :'(

DD
 
DiddyDave said:
Actually - I have my own ideas on what colour grass, and everything else for that matter, actually is - and yes I agree that green is one interpretation of it
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I wonder if Ven would agree with you? :lol:
 
zoom_05010117.jpg


taken in manual mode...
 
That looks like your shadow coming in from the right. Beak, head and wing pointing up. :)
 
AliB said:
That looks like your shadow coming in from the right. Beak, head and wing pointing up. :)
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:lol:

good one AliB..must be the ghost of ansel adams returning as a nuisance bird

cheers
 
Most cameras contain very good exposure meters,
However they are also very stupid.

I tend to use Manual for indoor flash
Manual when taking Panoramas
Manual when the light condition is stable.

Av when the light is Problematic..
I then use the meter in the camera to find the part of the subject that I know from experience with manual meters, will give a "Good" exposure, then hold the star button and recompose and shoot. This can be done very quickly.

I will also use AV for a quick test shot ... look at the result,(and histogram) check what shutter speed was used, make the necessary adjustment and shoot for real in manual.

What you do and how you do it is a matter of experience and should not entail much actual time for thinking. The Camera will not be on Auto but you should be.

My ancient Norwood (sekonik) incedent meter has pack up. Though in film days I relied on it extensively.
I found it Ideal for aerial photography, I would take a reading pointing at the sky, before we took off, and used that for taking 5x4 transparencies. The light hardly changes over an hours flight, though the direction you are shooting can do. However the Brightness range from the air is somewhat more limited, and it rarely causes problems.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
Most cameras contain very good exposure meters, However they are also very stupid.
My ancient Norwood (sekonik) incedent meter has pack up. Though in film days I relied on it extensively.
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:thumbs:
i used the micro sekonic with the incident shield for my 6x7 trannies via bronica's and fuji rangefinders
i never really went wrong
incident readings are possible??? on modern digital cameras...maybe not
 
Manual mode is THE mode for getting exposure spot-on with things like birds in flight shots where the bird is white or has patches of white on.
You lock the exposure in Manual to expose properly for the white details and then any background changes as you pan with the bird won't effect the exposure (any other mode it WILL effect the exposure).
Just about any subject with white detail on that is moving in front of a variable toned background will need manual to get a perfect exposure.

Also with action shots, as well as exposing for the whites accurately, it keeps the shutter speed up to a certain speed you need to freeze the action. The auto modes will lower the speed to a point where your photos will be incredibly blurred if the subject moves in front of a dark background.
 
Werecow said:
Also with action shots, as well as exposing for the whites accurately, it keeps the shutter speed up to a certain speed you need to freeze the action. The auto modes will lower the speed to a point where your photos will be incredibly blurred if the subject moves in front of a dark background.
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REally don't get this claim. If you need a slower shutter speed to expose correctly then under exposing using manual will still create you an imperfect image.
 
I don't mean it as in a case where a slower shutter speed is needed. i meant if the subject has white on you still need a HIGH shutter speed to expose for the subject and not the background.

TV mode for example would open up the aperture (if theres any more to open) in response to the dark background in which case it would have the shutter speed you had chosen to freeze the action but over-exposed the whites on the subject :)

grumpybadger said:
REally don't get this claim. If you need a slower shutter speed to expose correctly then under exposing using manual will still create you an imperfect image.
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grumpybadger said:
REally don't get this claim. If you need a slower shutter speed to expose correctly then under exposing using manual will still create you an imperfect image.
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Thats the whole point.. he wouldnt need a slower shutter speed to expose the subject properly.. but if the subject moves in front of a very dark or very bright area then the camera will adjust.. Hence using manual nothing adjust no matter what...

Have we come full circle now?
 
A case in point.... I took photos of a Heron that was in direct very bright early-morning sunshine and the whole background behind it was in in deep shade.

The subject needed about 1/800 at f5.6 to expose it properly. The background would have been close to 1/60. The only way to expose it accurately for any shot, let alone the bird moving around was to use manual mode.

So much of the scene was dark that any auto mode would have ruined the shot.

It's even more extreme in that situation when the bird flies in front of it etc. It would have moved between backgrounds that was about 5 stops darker than it to a background of equal brightness to it all within a split second.

So i could have either developed some sort of freakish skill of operating exposure compensation 3 times a second OR i could just expose accurately for the whites in manual mode and not have to bother at all about exposure and concentrate on the action in front of me and framing it :)
 
KIPAX said:
I always wanted to post a thread stating that grass is green... just to see how many people wanted to argue the fact :)
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It's 18% grey...lol

I'm astonished this thread is still stirring things up...
IMO the only mode where you have total control over the exposure is in Manual - in any other mode you delegate some of the decision-making to the camera...and for me that just isn't acceptable...

If you get good results with the auto-settings, well good for you...

But I'll be sticking with what I know works 100% of the time...
 
There have been numerous references to film above. Film is irrelevant. History. We we are digital now. (Get with the programme Steve ;) )

With film you had to use every tool at your disposal to get the exposure right, because there was no way of checking until after the event, and it was quite possibly too late. It was belt and braces. And you would use different settings for negs and trans. Even then, we would bracket important shots, just in case.

Digital makes all this stuff redundant. Look at the LCD, enable blinkies, check the histogram. You can do all that in less time than it takes to even get out your hand meter. Just chimp it - you can't go wrong. Who cares which modes you used to get there?
 
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