Used Car Help - How Many Miles Is Too Many?

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danny_bhoy

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I’ve got my eye on a new (used) car. My question is, what kinda mileage is considered ‘don’t touch with a barge pole territory?’

To give a little context, the car I’m looking at is a BMW 320d (with the M Sport Performance Pack). It’s a 2013 and has 166k on the clock with a full dealer service history. Now that equates to 33k p/year which I think is a lot in anyone’s books although I know a lot of these cars are used as company/fleet cars.

What sort of things should I be wary of or checking for?

Thanks in advance for any advice :)
 
I find that up to a point age is as much a factor as mileage. There seems to be an age at which the electrics/electronics start to go and then its a constant drip, drip, drip of expense replacing sensors, solenoids and switches etc.. In my expereince this starts to become an issue aroung 8-9 years old.

That said 166k is reasonably high, you could be coming in for a lot of wear related expense even if it has been dealer serviced. Things like wheel bearings only get replaced when they fail, not as part of a routine service.
 
I think that is a lot of miles, unless of course it is very cheap and you are planning on using it as a mega mile muncher I suppose.
but its a BMW so it has a lot of very expensive parts and some of them have been doing a lot of miles I personally wouldn't entertain it
 
sirch said:
I find that up to a point age is as much a factor as mileage. There seems to be an age at which the electrics/electronics start to go and then its a constant drip, drip, drip of expense replacing sensors, solenoids and switches etc.. In my expereince this starts to become an issue aroung 8-9 years old.

That said 166k is reasonably high, you could be coming in for a lot of wear related expense even if it has been dealer serviced. Things like wheel bearings only get replaced when they fail, not as part of a routine service.
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Thanks for the reply Chris, you've pretty much confirmed what I thought.

The price of the car I'm looking at very much reflects the mileage but 166k is making me twitchy. Might have to settle for a newer but less extravagant variant.
 
Mr Bump said:
I think that is a lot of miles, unless of course it is very cheap and you are planning on using it as a mega mile muncher I suppose.
but its a BMW so it has a lot of very expensive parts and some of them have been doing a lot of miles I personally wouldn't entertain it
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Thanks Paul, I think you're right. The rational part of my brain is slowly starting to regain control :)
 
One thing to bear in mind with a BM is that although new parts are expensive you can often get 2nd hand/pattern or oe parts but not in a BM bag parts from what we used to call "breakers" etc (some from written off cars because the value of the car doesnt warrant a repair with expensive new parts) which drastically reduces the running cost. Additionally servicing can be done either by a non franchised dealer, a trained BM technician who has gone freelance or the franchised dealer offers a lower charge out rate for older cars, so servicing may not be such a drain as you originally think. Having said that we have a 1 series BM (2012 reg, silly low mileage) and it's more expensive to service than my other car (2011 Focus diesel), so you do pay a premium for the badge unfortunately. A good car these days should do 200K without too many problems, so at 166K you're probably going to start getting into replacing things.

We recently had a sensor go, and despite it being a "premium" car I found out it's a common part on Peugeot, VW and Skoda, so some parts may not be as "premium" as you would think and will wear out at the same time as one fitted to a "lesser" car. Tbh I dont regard BMW as "premium" cars they are just a badged up Ford in my view :)

One thing to look at is the recall notices on the Govt website to see just how good the car you are thinking of buying is/was, I was horrified to see how many recalls a series 1 has had, all fixed during routine servicing without our being aware of any recall (in particular the latestBM battery/fire recall, ours had already been fixed apparently).
 
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All depends on the price. If it has FSH then the engine will go on and on, it just depends on the less common wear and tear parts you cant see like bearings. If the price is right, I would go for it. A low mileage car could have a different set of problems and cost lots more. How much is this one, and how much is similar car with say 60k on it (average 12k pa). I did have the 2016 320d for a year and did 35 or so k in it (new) and it was a lovely car.
 
MatBin said:
One thing to bear in mind with a BM is that although new parts are expensive you can often get 2nd hand/pattern or oe parts but not in a BM bag parts from what we used to call "breakers" etc (some from written off cars because the value of the car doesnt warrant a repair with expensive new parts) which drastically reduces the running cost. Additionally servicing can be done either by a non franchised dealer, a trained BM technician who has gone freelance or the franchised dealer offers a lower charge out rate for older cars, so servicing may not be such a drain as you originally think. Having said that we have a 1 series BM (2012 reg, silly low mileage) and it's more expensive to service than my other car (2011 Focus diesel), so you do pay a premium for the badge unfortunately. A good car these days should do 200K without too many problems, so at 166K you're probably going to start getting into replacing things.

We recently had a sensor go, and despite it being a "premium" car I found out it's a common part on Peugeot, VW and Skoda, so some parts may not be as "premium" as you would think and will wear out at the same time as one fitted to a "lesser" car. Tbh I dont regard BMW as "premium" cars they are just a badged up Ford in my view :)

One thing to look at is the recall notices on the Govt website to see just how good the car you are thinking of buying is/was, I was horrified to see how many recalls a series 1 has had, all fixed during routine servicing without our being aware of any recall (in particular the latestBM battery/fire recall, ours had already been fixed apparently).
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Thanks for the info Matt, some really good points there! I'd kinda expect to pay a little extra for BMW parts/services etc but, again, that's a really good point about oe parts. I did have a quick look at the recall notices on the Gov website too and there was noting to be found, so that's a good sign I suppose.
 
cambsno said:
All depends on the price. If it has FSH then the engine will go on and on, it just depends on the less common wear and tear parts you cant see like bearings. If the price is right, I would go for it. A low mileage car could have a different set of problems and cost lots more. How much is this one, and how much is similar car with say 60k on it (average 12k pa). I did have the 2016 320d for a year and did 35 or so k in it (new) and it was a lovely car.
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Thanks for the reply Simon, nice to hear from someone who's owned one.

This one is in awesome condition but priced very much to reflect the mileage at just over £10k! Could turn out to be a real steal but obviously the risk is there.

Ones with 60-70k miles on the clock are coming in at about £16k-ish.
 
Purely on a sidenote in regard to high mileage and possible big bills.

Yonks ago the company car I was driving was replaced, now it was a Ford Sierra with full dealer service history and one of my 'works' colleagues showed an interest in buying it off the company. He asked me about it as I was the sole user during its >120,000 miles life, I told him that the garage had advised that it would highly likely need new front shock absorbers & wheel bearings in very short period of time plus front disks and the exhaust system was showing signs of age (i.e. query how long before it blew a hole of a joint failed due to rust).

My advice to him was (and I had no idea how much the MD would be asking for it) was just bear in mind the bigger bills coming up and only buy it if he could get it a price to suit his pocket based on the prospect of such impending bills!!!

In the end he decided to leave it.
 
M-Sport might be the key to making the high-miler less appealing - As far as I could recall it's a small-lip boot spoiler, smaller steering wheel, some badges, sports suspension and large alloys with run-flat tyres...

Any car set up for sport will have extremely firm suspension and not be so comfortable on country roads - plus suspension parts may be very worn/tired..

A standard 320d SE or something with better interior trim will be better in my opinion
 
I would be concerned about the timing chain.
 
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Timing sorted from 2013 onwards.... very good engine... most bmw dealers price match 5year plus servicing and repairs.
 
BMW was bottom in j d power 2017 reliability survey. I would expect huge bills. My son bought 3 series with 133k mileage, within months needed a gear box. A Friend bought his 5 series from his employer, it had just over 100k on clock and looked brand new and had been well looked after. Engine blew up after another 10k miles.
 
It's worth checking the MOT history on .gov site. There can be useful info in the advisories & what any failures might've been.

Great engine in the 320d :)
 
If you have an iPhone, download the ‘vehicle smart’ app which does the above. It gives you mileage and MOT information which can prove useful.

Only thing I’d be wary of is the cam chain issue on these engines.
 
Try reading consumerreports.org and bmw come 5th and you can click on every manufacturer and go through each model. Unfortunately jd just go by scoring owner surveys where a rattlly ash tray scores the same as a blown engine or gearbox. CR actually test each car. I’m not particularly sticking up for them although I have had three from a c REG 320 to a 2013 520 msport without a single problem. I’m just aware of sponsored reviews.
 
I know BMW's hold their money but just under £10k for a 5yr old car with 166k miles on the clock seems an awful lot to me. Even half the cost of an average mileage example would seem a lot.
 
Firstly, I would guess the DPF filter can just barely survive up to 180-190k with mainly highway use. The VW ones are at least. That's one nasty expense.

Timing chain is another. Has it been replaced? They are not permanent one way or another.

DMF and clutch (if manual) or gearbox oil change for auto?

All the rubbers, shocks, springs and mounts will be on their way out or close to it unless recently replaced.

Turbo is worth checking over; many fail at half that. (some would last a lot longer though).

If it had been flooded electrics may play up.

As it is a BMW it has a fair chance to have a had a major body shop visit...

It depends what you are prepared to put up with and how much you can do yourself.

Having said that if you are not careful you could easily end up with far worse car at much lower mileage. Many will sell on a car before a near certain failure whilst the symptoms are somewhat still mild.

BBR said:
BMW was bottom in j d power 2017 reliability survey. I would expect huge bills. My son bought 3 series with 133k mileage, within months needed a gear box. A Friend bought his 5 series from his employer, it had just over 100k on clock and looked brand new and had been well looked after. Engine blew up after another 10k miles.
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That sounds like it. Both down to probably no respective oil changes or timing chain (and again many garage receipts are not worth the paper they are printed on). At least BMW boxes are dirt cheap on the used market, not so much for the engines... Next time pay a trusted mechanic or at least get AA inspection before parting with cash.
There are horror stories with most brands. That is probably deliberate as well. You just don't hear of busses and lorries being that unreliable.
 
nilagin said:
I know BMW's hold their money but just under £10k for a 5yr old car with 166k miles on the clock seems an awful lot to me. Even half the cost of an average mileage example would seem a lot.
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Commonly the response to overpriced goods is to convince yourself that somehow they are the better ones, even when logically it can't be the case. Many sellers will use it to their advantage and we sometimes use it marketing our services.... Sometimes cheaper can be also better (find a truly desperate or totally unaware seller).
 
danny_bhoy said:
This one is in awesome condition but priced very much to reflect the mileage at just over £10k! Could turn out to be a real steal but obviously the risk is there.

Ones with 60-70k miles on the clock are coming in at about £16k-ish.
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So if you end up having to spend more than £6k in replacing worn-out parts, the high-mileage car would turn out to be a bad buy. If you end up spending about £6k, you'd be neutral financially but obviously there would be a hassle factor associated with having to have all that work done. If you end up spending less than £6k, it's a good decision financially but there's still the hassle factor to take into account.

Logically there is some number X < 6k where the hassle factor associated with spending £X on replacement parts is effectively compensated by the saving of £(6-X)k.

I don't know what X is from your point of view, and I don't knows how likely it is that you'd have to spend X. But if you can work out how much the worst case spend is, that might make the decision obvious to you.
 
StewartR said:
So if you end up having to spend more than £6k in replacing worn-out parts, the high-mileage car would turn out to be a bad buy. If you end up spending about £6k, you'd be neutral financially but obviously there would be a hassle factor associated with having to have all that work done. If you end up spending less than £6k, it's a good decision financially but there's still the hassle factor to take into account.

Logically there is some number X < 6k where the hassle factor associated with spending £X on replacement parts is effectively compensated by the saving of £(6-X)k.

I don't know what X is from your point of view, and I don't knows how likely it is that you'd have to spend X. But if you can work out how much the worst case spend is, that might make the decision obvious to you.
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That's not how it works. Whatever you spend it is still worth the original £10k minus any depreciation due to added mileage and age. The lower mileage car would be worth respectively more. Spending £6k would bring the outlay up, but come selling time would just burn the hole in the pocket of that exact size.
I bought 4 cars a couple of years ago stupidly cheaply but they needed some very major work. Two worked out extremely well, two still ended up being a loss, well will be once sold. Paying a full price with a real chance of major failure is well too risky.

P.S. at £6k we are talking a brand new engine from the dealership and maybe a whole gearbox thrown in. That's some serious repairs...
 
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LongLensPhotography said:
P.S. at £6k we are talking a brand new engine from the dealership and maybe a whole gearbox thrown in. That's some serious repairs...
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Well yeah, that's what I thought. It seemed to me that the OP was likely to come out ahead, because £6k is an awful lot to spend on repairs.

But I didn't think of this:
LongLensPhotography said:
That's not how it works. Whatever you spend it is still worth the original £10k minus any depreciation due to added mileage and age. The lower mileage car would be worth respectively more. Spending £6k would bring the outlay up, but come selling time would just burn the hole in the pocket of that exact size.
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Ah. I didn't think of that because I've never sold a car, so I don't tend to think of residual values. Obviously that's a major error in this case. Sorry. Thanks for pointing it out.
 
Simon Blades said:
If you have an iPhone, download the ‘vehicle smart’ app which does the above. It gives you mileage and MOT information which can prove useful.

Only thing I’d be wary of is the cam chain issue on these engines.
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Cam chain prob sorted out before 2013 models
 
Right, I know that I am comparing apples to oranges - Skoda 1.9TDiPD, purchased 2012 93K miles. It has taken us on four trips around Europe and has 168K on the clock now - how much would I pay for it now, considering that it could rack up another 100K miles? I wouldn'nt pay more than 1K for it, and I know that the BMW is not worth 5 , let alone 10 times more.
 
And how do you know that? Or it it just your opinion and if so what is it based on?
 
Also 2013 diesel is likely to face some legal problems in the near future. Euro 6 would be more or less future proof, while a late E4 or early E5 would at least cost far less so a far less risky purchase overall. To be fair if I had the money now I'd be buying 2015+. If you imagine that pre-2015 are banned from all inner cities, suddenly the value of 2015 would even go slightly up while the older ones will be crashing all the way down.

edit: yes, you can just about get a 2015 Passat 2.0 TDI DSG for 10k. Engines are pretty similar to BMW while the suspension will certainly need certain mods to achieve reasonable performance... Just putting that on the table...
 
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Imagine all pre 2015 banned from cities..... now that’s a fair old imagination
 
gerry s said:
And how do you know that? Or it it just your opinion and if so what is it based on?
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Assuming that question was aimed at me, my assertion is simply a personal view.
As others have correctly pointed out, that BMW is going to require imminent replacement of various parts, plus a major service. In the next year, that could equate to another £5K easily, particularly if the clutch/DMF needed replacement, exhaust/CAT, suspension (shocks, arms, rods, bushes), brakes (discs/pads).
As "sirch" correctly pointed out, wheel bearings don't last forever, and electrical problems could well start to rear their ugly heads.
At the end of the day, it is simply another car, and the MSport pack will make the suspension harder putting stress on other suspension parts.
If the OP really wants that spec, then here is one the same age but with 99K on the clock and possibly £2K less.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classi...=3 SERIES&postcode=me158hb&radius=1500&page=1
 
You seem to think I’m advising the op to buy this particular car, I’m not but why does it need a major service, why is it going to replace almost immediate replacement if parts, why is the clutch, gearbox and suspension going to need replacing. All of these things may have been done in the last three months or it may have just been really well looked after. It may be a heap of crap but we don’t know but seem to assume because it’s a bmw everything is going to cost a fortune and in the near future. Value for this are between 10-17,000 for 60000 mls and probably allow 3000-35000 deduction for the mileage.
 
Way too higher a milage unless it was given away. If it needed a new engine then the next thing to go would be the gearbox due to additional strain and so forth through to the wheels. with a car like that you can be it has been hammered some time in its life. Ask the previous owner why he is selling it
 
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Just for info, and I'm not sure about the 2013 models, m-sport models have selectable suspension/engine modes from Eco, Comfort, Sport and Sport plus.
The suspension is not always rock hard all the time.
 
gerry s said:
Imagine all pre 2015 banned from cities..... now that’s a fair old imagination
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Not totally banned, but required to pay £20 or so per day to enter the said zones. It equates to one and the same thing. It is going in effect in London from January 2019; Birmingham and others are set to follow in a few years time.
https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/info/20076/pollution/1763/a_clean_air_zone_for_birmingham/2
It just isn't crystal clear if A4540 itself would be included in the scheme which would swing the effect from "mild inconvenience" to "severe".
Of course countryside users are far less likely to be affected in any way. I am sitting somewhere on the fence right now.

It would be very wise to consider this now before dropping £10k.

gerry s said:
You seem to think I’m advising the op to buy this particular car, I’m not but why does it need a major service, why is it going to replace almost immediate replacement if parts, why is the clutch, gearbox and suspension going to need replacing. All of these things may have been done in the last three months or it may have just been really well looked after. It may be a heap of crap but we don’t know but seem to assume because it’s a bmw everything is going to cost a fortune and in the near future. Value for this are between 10-17,000 for 60000 mls and probably allow 3000-35000 deduction for the mileage.
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Major service = engine oil and all the filters change. All cars need it every year. There is really nothing "MAJOR" in it, other than dealership price tag. And it need not cost £500. More like £80-100 if you buy the bits and DIY or use affordable mechanic.

If the car is maintained well it should not need to many things to change, maybe except the suspension... but bits will start failing slowly one by one. Mechanical components aren't permanent.

andy700 said:
As others have correctly pointed out, that BMW is going to require imminent replacement of various parts, plus a major service. In the next year, that could equate to another £5K easily, particularly if the clutch/DMF needed replacement, exhaust/CAT, suspension (shocks, arms, rods, bushes), brakes (discs/pads).
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Where are you getting these figures from?
Clutch / DMF - £300-400 in parts. Probably another that in labour
cat could be restored for a fraction of dealership quote
suspension - £600-700 for a high end strut package (Bilstein B8 / KONI FSD, not your usual scrap) in parts
all bushes from Powerflex or superpro around £350 in parts.
Even I can do brakes myself and thats around £250-350 all round.

It should not need all of that so quickly or else one should run away from it.

realspeed said:
Way too higher a milage unless it was given away. If it needed a new engine then the next thing to go would be the gearbox due to additional strain and so forth through to the wheels. with a car like that you can be it has been hammered some time in its life. Ask the previous owner why he is selling it
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It is very unlikely engine and gearbox will go together from what I have seen. Engine + DMF or vice versa - yes that is likely.

Reason for sale could be simply down to new car purchase, move to an SUV, or something else more fancy. There is no need to be tied to the same car forever until it starts failing.
 
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LongLensPhotography said:
Where are you getting these figures from?
Clutch / DMF - £300-400 in parts. Probably another that in labour
cat could be restored for a fraction of dealership quote
suspension - £600-700 for a high end strut package (Bilstein B8 / KONI FSD, not your usual scrap) in parts
all bushes from Powerflex or superpro around £350 in parts.
Even I can do brakes myself and thats around £250-350 all round.

It should not need all of that so quickly or else one should run away from it.
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The clutch is around £350, and the LUK DMF around £740, plus as you say around £400 to fit.
You can add on another £400 to fit the suspension, so with the £700 for the parts, we are now up to around £2.2K for suspension and clutch.
If the timing chain needs replacing (it was still an issue on 2011-13 cars) then it will cost £1.2K from a main dealer or £800 from an indy, because the chain is located at the flywheel end of the engine.
I would say a major service includes fluids - engine/gearbox/coolant/brake-clutch hydraulic, then filters and possibly glow plugs at that mileage.
 
Why on earth does everybody keep on about replacing virtually everything on a car they no nothing about.... for some reason this is one of the most negative threads I’ve seen here..... no point in saying anymore really
 
My BMW 330D was less than three years old with only 30k miles and the oil sump gasket failed quite badly. That's ridiculous in its own right but factor in two and a half days (yep days!) to fix is ridiculous. Of course any car can go wrong but I got the impression that this car was never going to be easy to fix or inexpensive.

Nice to drive and good performance (the 3l one anyway) but rather overrated in my opinion especially at £40k new. I would only lease a new one within warranty period.

I'm still not convinced about the timing chain issue being fixed. There's even a possible report of the same issue in Honest John.

Unless doing serious mileage I would stick to a n/a petrol. For high mileage used car a 8th Gen Accord 2.4 petrol Sport or EX would be my choice. Decent enough performance and bullet proof engine and will still return mid to high 30's. The 2.0 petrol is a few mpg better but loses out on some performance.
 
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danny_bhoy said:
Thanks for the replies everyone. Although I stopped reading when it descended into the stereotypical TP willy-waving.

For anyone who still remembers what the thread was about, I’m going to give the car a miss and go for a newer version with a few less miles :)
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If your after a BMW keep an eye on the BMW approved used site, some bargains on there and all come with BMW seal of approval, you can also purchase a service pack that covers the service costs for a number of years/miles.
 
had a petrol version about 8 years ago ,dream car but scared the s*** out of me when the turbo kicked in at 3000 revs ,I kept it for a couple of months and went back to dirty diesels never had a petrol since
 
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