Using an image taken in public commercially?

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Edit My Images
Yes
I have an image that a band may want to use for a cd cover, the photograph was taken in Spain and features people in a market place, the photograph shows a couple and various other members of the public, it wasn't posed, the crowd were probably unaware I was taking the shot.

Do I need a model release form for that type of photograph? It would be impossible to get as I don't know who the people are, they could be Spanish, British, German, anything!

The CD would be an American release, if that makes any difference?

Cheers

Dave
 
no because they are not the main people inthe photo but not sure about the fact that its for the US
 
Almost zero likelyhood of problems.

In the UK (and I'm sure Spain is no different) people have no automatic rights over images taken of them if you were standing in a public place.

Very rarely you can get infringements for invasion of privacy, or maybe defamation if, for example the people in the picture were clearly recognisable and the photo was used out of context - say to depict a crowd on a gay rights march when it was nothing of the sort. Even then it's a heck of a job for them to prove any kind of loss that should be compensated. They certainly cannot claim any kind of royalty payment.

So go ahead. It's the publisher's problem anyway, not yours, and they will know their stuff.

Richard.
 
I think it's going to take a solicitor to properly answer this one. I'm not sure if the laws of where the photo was taken, published, of the persons pictured, your country of residence, or a combination of them all would apply.

It's possible that someone in the shot is from France and they do have laws about using an individual's image so they *might* be a case to answer there. It might be very simple, or it might be a minefield.

edit to add: It's also worth checking who would be liable, you, the publisher or both...
 
Erm, the publisher is liable. They will ask you to sign the image off first, stating in good faith that you have no reason to believe anybody else has any claims to it. Then it's over to them. Only if you tell a big porkie, like somebody commissioned you to take the pic, will you be in trouble with the publisher, not anybody else.

And a solicitor will say 99.9% of the time "it's no problem" and in the other 0.1% "it depends" and you'll not be able to find out before publishing anyway (unless you specifically ask everyone in the image if they object, and why, before proceding).

On the other hand, they might well say "let's have a look, and that'll be £200 please."

Richard.
 
Isn't it aright providing you're not going to insult them. I seem to remember something about a photo of a football crowd concentrating on one person and the ad was for an impotency service
 
To get around the possible problems couldn't you do some kind of artwork on the picture that obscures the faces or clone the people out oltogether if they're not actually contributing to the composition.
 
Erm, the publisher is liable. They will ask you to sign the image off first, stating in good faith that you have no reason to believe anybody else has any claims to it. Then it's over to them. Only if you tell a big porkie, like somebody commissioned you to take the pic, will you be in trouble with the publisher, not anybody else.

That's the point though, the OP has asked if someone in the photo might have claim so they can hardly sign off in good faith because they don't know. There are other potential issues too. There might be trademarks in the shot, iconic buildings in the background, etc.

On the other hand, they might well say "let's have a look, and that'll be £200 please."

Depends on the route you take. The band/publisher might already have a solicitor/lawyer available who can advise. They might have free legal advise with an insurance policy or be a member of another organisation that provides such a service.

The point I was making is that only a legal professional can really advise on what to do here as the issues *could* be far more complex than it appears and involve laws from 3 or more countries. On the face of it it does seem like a simple issue but then fools do tend to rush in....
 
That's the point though, the OP has asked if someone in the photo might have claim so they can hardly sign off in good faith because they don't know. There are other potential issues too. There might be trademarks in the shot, iconic buildings in the background, etc.

On the face of it it does seem like a simple issue but then fools do tend to rush in....

I think this is worth debating a little further, as it often comes up in these politically sensitive times.

Signing something in good faith simply means 'to the best of my knowledge'. It's not a statement of absolute fact.

So what if there are logos and stuff in the background? It's hard to avoid them. Which is why brands pay loads of money to put them there. Where's the harm? :thinking:

The world is full of 'potential issues' but we don't need to consult a solicitor whenever we pick up a camera. Just use a bit of common sense.

If you don't upset anybody, there's not a problem. And even if you do, if you're telling the truth and can prove it (ie this person was actually at this place, doing this thing, at this time, in the way it's been depicted) then there's no comeback.

Check out the stuff in the Photo Sharing forums. Should a solicitor be consulted on all of those street candids? Of course not. No harm is being done, and only truth is being portrayed.

Simple test: who might object to this being published, and why? If nobody, go ahead. If somebody might, but the representation is truthful (and you can prove it) then go ahead anyway. If there is any chance of an image being misinterpreted in a damaging way, then don't do it, or take legal advice. In the latter case it is usually obvious because you're trying to pull a fast one, and you know it. However, there is still the million to one chance of causing accidental offense that you have no way of knowing about or predicting (and neither does a solicitor) and ignorance is no defense. That's why publishers' have insurance ;)

BTW, I'm not a fool, and I don't rush in. Just published thousands of pictures, been sued now and then, and paid a few solititor's bills along the way ;)

Richard.
 
Check out the stuff in the Photo Sharing forums. Should a solicitor be consulted on all of those street candids? Of course not. No harm is being done, and only truth is being portrayed.

WRT trademarks, being displayed here or elsewhere on the net is not a commercial use and there are various valid reasons, artistic, critique, reporting, etc.

But if the OP's shot contains say, a big golden M, then it could be a very different story. Even worse if the album happened to be called Big Mac's Ballards or Death by Burger. I'm not suggesting this is the case here but I think the point is obvious and stock libraries are very clear about not accpeting images containing trademarks and numerous other reasons.

The reality is where there's money to be made people will try. If that means taking legal action over the cover image on some band's album it will happen and there are countless companies who will pursue unauthorised use of their trademarks to the full extent of the law.

Only yesterday I heard Madonna's videos had been pulled from YouTube because they weren't earning money (or was it enough) from it. Forget about the fans, and asking where's the harm. It all comes down to money.
 
WRT trademarks, being displayed here or elsewhere on the net is not a commercial use and there are various valid reasons, artistic, critique, reporting, etc.

But if the OP's shot contains say, a big golden M, then it could be a very different story. Even worse if the album happened to be called Big Mac's Ballards or Death by Burger. I'm not suggesting this is the case here but I think the point is obvious and stock libraries are very clear about not accpeting images containing trademarks and numerous other reasons.

The reality is where there's money to be made people will try. If that means taking legal action over the cover image on some band's album it will happen and there are countless companies who will pursue unauthorised use of their trademarks to the full extent of the law.

Only yesterday I heard Madonna's videos had been pulled from YouTube because they weren't earning money (or was it enough) from it. Forget about the fans, and asking where's the harm. It all comes down to money.


No. If your pic has a big golden M in it, that is not a problem in itself. You can still publish it freely. But if you use the image in a manner or context that either attempts to exploit the McDonalds name by, say, implying some endorsement that doesn't exist, or implying that bugers kill you when you have no evidence and are therefore damaging the brand unjustifiably, then you quite rightly might have to answer some pointed questions. But you don't need even half a brain to know when you're doing that, wrongly, in the first place. You're not being honest and decent, and deserve to get clobbered.

Some stock libraries are over cautious not because they are doing anything wrong, but they only make a few quid out of most sales anf they have very liitle real control over how clients use their images. They simply can't afford even a solicitor's letter telling a claimant to pi55 off. It's a business decision, not a legal one.

I agree that it all comes down to money, and that is what motivates most complaints - a slim chance of some compensation, rather than any legitimate claim to loss or damage. I think we should resist that culture and fight for what is right and fair. This has never been a 'free society' but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try and hold on to the freedoms we've got without bowing to intimidation which, at the end of the day, is what is happening in a lot of cases.

Which side are you on? The side for sanity, fair play and good reason I hope. That is what the law is trying to uphold (believe it or not ;) :D )

Richard.
 
So where are we at?

The people might be from countries (such as France) that have laws that protect their "image".

The image might contain trademarks the holders of which might object depending on the name of the CD/band/context.

The laws of 3 or more counties might be involved (UK for OP, US for publication, plus others for the people and possible trademarks).

We don't know what contract, rights, disclaimer, etc. the OP might have with the publisher and whilst most of the flak would be aimed at the publisher their contract/terms could well offer them a clawback from the OP.

It might well be the case that no one will bat an eyelid at the intended use of the image. But, if it were me, I'd like to make sure I knew what I was getting into first and assess any potential risk.

Free legal advice on the internet is worth slightly less that what you paid for it ;)
 
So where are we at?

I'm cool thanks :)

I hope you're sitting quietly in a safe corner, sitting on your hands, or you "might" get into trouble.

The OP is grateful to learn that his work can be be freely used for publication, providing he acts sensibly, honestly and decently. Or he is feeling miffed because some paranoid contributor on here advised him to pay a solicitor more money than he was ever going to get in the first place.

Please don't sue me :D

BR,

Richard.
 
Sir, I bow to your superior knowledge of international law, it's not my field which is why I, in a fit of paranoia, would take proper advice on the matter.

OP, go for it, just don't sue Hoppy if it all goes pear shaped ;)
 
The OP is grateful to learn that his work can be be freely used for publication, providing he acts sensibly, honestly and decently.

If he is then he'll have a totally false sense of security. You simply cannot use a photo which includes recognisable people commercially and presume that everything will be fine.

Chances are the subjects of the photo will never find out, however all they have to do is to object to the use of their image in the promotion of a product and the record company would either have to pay out compensation or withdraw all stock.

A model releases the rights from the subject to the copyright owner and that is why they are so important when selling work for commercial use.
 
If he is then he'll have a totally false sense of security. You simply cannot use a photo which includes recognisable people commercially and presume that everything will be fine.

Chances are the subjects of the photo will never find out, however all they have to do is to object to the use of their image in the promotion of a product and the record company would either have to pay out compensation or withdraw all stock.

A model releases the rights from the subject to the copyright owner and that is why they are so important when selling work for commercial use.

"...all they have to do is to object to the use of their image..." Completely untrue from a legal position. Many years ago a picture of me from my wedding was used on the front of the local paper which I didn't like at all (I had an 'amusing' accident, and they needed a mug-shot fast). What should I be compensated for? Really. What should I be compensated for? By whom? How much?

C'mon guys. I never said you can use any picture any time and "presume everything will be fine." If it comes across like that, I'm sorry, but read it again.

What I have said is, ask yourself a few common sense questions, honestly and decently, and you will probably conclude that there is not a problem with publication in the overwhelming number of circumstances, and we can all get on with our lives sensibly. This is actually a much more strict filter than the law demands as if you apply the "decently" bit to everything that appears in the tabloids most of it would get spiked instantly.

This site is itself full of potential legal problems. NN, is that pic under your name your copyright? Is the cartoon of Bart further up the poster's copyright? No. Has it been licensed to the user? Erm, unlikely ;) Then why is it published here? Is it a problem for anyone? Obviously not!

So what if somebody finds an image of themselves on a CD cover, providing the context is not derogatory? The album is not going to get withdrawn and nobody is going to receive a penny in compensation. Compensation for what? Ten seconds of fame? The only thing I can think of here is that maybe a member of a rival band has been accidentally pictured - a very remote possibility, but the record company should spot that.

That Alamy link is typical of the scaremongering that seems to be rife around publishing these days. They are NOT quoting the law (and a Model Release is itself NOT a legally binding document at all, merely a precaution) and you only have to glance at their website images to see that nobody can possibly be taking any notice of it. They are simply covering their commercial a55es so that if the sh!t does hit the fan Alamay can pretend that they did everything possible (short of actually being bothered to check out beforehand how an image was going to be used) and shove the blame onto somebody else. In other words, that is money talking, it's a commercial precaution, it is not the law.

Now then, back in the real world, watch out for the paparazzi. And for me. I might take your picture and use it to illustrate a photo magazine article on internet publishing myths. You will be identifiable, I will not have a Model Release, I will not have your permission, but I will have this thread as factual evidence that the context is legitimate, and honest (even if it's not particularly "decent"). Like it or not, you won't receive a penny, nor even an apology. Just a bill from your own solicitor.

Seasons greetings,

Richard.
 
Yep, you're right again with all your examples Richard. Just a pity none of them were examples of a commercial use.

Presuming you're not simply trolling here. Let's start with a simple example of a commercial use.

I take a photo of someone, have it printed as a calendar, jigsaw, poster, etc. and start selling it. Do you honestly believe the subject of the photo has no legal claim?
 
Yep, you're right again with all your examples Richard. Just a pity none of them were examples of a commercial use.

Presuming you're not simply trolling here. Let's start with a simple example of a commercial use.

I take a photo of someone, have it printed as a calendar, jigsaw, poster, etc. and start selling it. Do you honestly believe the subject of the photo has no legal claim?

No. If taken in a public place, no, they don't. Fact. No automatic legal claim, and they'd face a tough circumstantial battle to claim anything. That's the starting point, and it puts the photographer on quite solid ground. It is only if you are stupid in the way the image is used that there might be a remote chance of comeback.

I'm not trolling mate, so this will be my last post on this thread ;) I'm just trying to put a little common sense on the table, a bit of photo freedom, and say that while there might be a lot of huff and puff about some pictures being published with dire consequencies, the LAW is actually on the side of freedom to publish. If you are dumb, deceitful, or extremely unfortunate, you might get caught out. But if you are sensible, honest and act decently, your chances of breaking the law are actually very slim. The OP appears to be adhering to these basics, hence my advice.

By the way, the example I used of my picture being published in a newspaper is one of commercial use, and so are the examples of pictures being published on here, even though the extent of commercialism is much less and not primary. That in itself makes no difference to the principle - it is still publication without permission - though of course the 'money' angle can play a big part on what action is taken, rightly or wrongly.

As to your example about "a photo of someone, have it printed as a calendar, jigsaw, poster, etc" the basic answer to a picture of anybody taken in a public place is no, they have no automatic rights, and they are fair game. But I will say this; it sounds like a pretty dull calendar to me, so you'd have to spice it up somehow. That is your legal achilles heel.

If I take a picture of Jordan falling out of a club drunk and turn it into a jigsaw, she might not like it but she has no automatic legal rights. She would have to fight a circumstantial action which, if you'd followed my guidlines, would not apply so you'd be okay. Even so, Jordan being Jordan, she'd find herself fighting an uphill battle.

I am close to the family of someone who has recently become world famous on a major scale. All sorts of pictures of them have popped out of nowhere and appeared all over the place on hundreds of products, all cashing in on their new fame. Their business manager is not best pleased, not because he objects to people making a few quid, but because he has no control over what is happening to these images. That is why celebrities are surrounded by massive security, because photographers cannot be legally prevented from shooting, and exploiting commercially, what they see from a public place.

I'm done. Over and out on this one :)

Richard.
 
No. If taken in a public place, no, they don't. Fact. No automatic legal claim.

You're wrong. Plain and simply wrong.

Where the shot was taken has no bearing. You cannot use a shot of a recognisable person on a product without their prior consent. Full stop.
 
if someone has published this or not .if the picture is taken on public property then tuff titties to whoever is in the shot . at the point when you took the photo i guess no one came up to you to complain you would have just asked them to move out of the shot.

This is what i was told by my tutor a while ago hope it helps
 
Why is the concept of commercial use so difficult to grasp?

Publishing a photo online, in a newspaper, etc. is NOT commercial use. It comes under the banner of "fair use" for editorial, critique, etc.

Commercial use is when the photo becomes a product, is used to promote or adverstise a product, etc.

Edit to add:

The UK doesn't require a model release but you'll get nowhere without one in a commercial setting because of the international nature that normally comes with it. However the Data Protection Act would probably protect the subject as, although it excludes personal use (hobby), editorial, etc, if you start using the image for commercial reasons then you have effectively "processed" the data held and the subject could object to the processing.
 
I have to say I would side with pxl8 here. If I was doing marketing say for a company like coca-cola and I saw johnny depp walking down the street drinking a coca-cola I couldnt take a picture of him and then run an advertising campaign with johnny depp being shown as endorsing the product...
 
Of course the law doesn't recognise a celeb such as Johnny Depp as being any different to Joe Bloggs. The damages/compensation awarded would certainly reflect a difference but the court wouldn't say Mr Bloggs, you're not famous so you have no case :nono:
 
It seems that some people might not have understood what I have said. So in the interests of clarity, I have never said you can use any picture of anybody any how you like. Because you can't, even though the law starts out being squarely behind the concept of basic freedoms for photography in public places.

What I have said, is that if you apply some common sense, honesty and good standards of decency to a situation, then there is a good chance that you will find there is not an automatic legal problem, and no need to refer to a solictor immediately. I have given examples of this is practise. A random pic of Johnny Depp being exploited in a Coke ad fails that test! The example given by the OP might well pass it - that's for them to judge, using all all the information they have.

I must also warn against the protection of "fair use" or "fair comment" or some artificial concept of what is "commercial" and what is "editorial". Clear distinctions here do not exist and, for example, editorial is often also very commercial.

Seasons greetings,

Richard.
 
Thanks for all the information people, seems like a bit of a minefield. I'll find out mid January if the image is going to be used or not. If it does come to it, I'll speak to the record company and seek their advice.

Dave
 
Simple answer, you will have to get someone who specialises in Spanish law as the photo was taken there. What may be acceptable in some countries may well be totally illegal in others. I definately wouldn't allow any photo published until I was 100% sure that it didn't contravene any foreign countries law. Spanish prisons I understand are not the type of place I would like to find myself in.
Realspeed
 
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