Ways to make money

The reason for the Gas Safety Register is to show a list of registered gas engineers, this is due to the fact the Gas industry is a regulated market, where as the photography market isn't.

It's not about a list at all. It's about giving the customer confidence that the person carrying out the work has been assessed and continues to be assessed on the quality of their work and as such can expect a professional job to be done.

The parallels with this and hiring a professional photographer must be obvious :shrug:
 
I never said that there aren't many respected photographers attached to your organisation, so let's keep a clear head here Colin.

Sorry Phil, perhaps I read it in the wrong context, just the phrase "genuinely 'professional' photographers" seemed to me that you were saying we didn't have any, but I apologies if I read something in to your post that wasn't there.

Points covered above. :)
 
1. Again many members do not wish to go down the qualifications route, it is not our intentions to discriminate against these members, so this benefit of membership will be continuing in its current form.

.....snip......

Hope this covers your points. :)

not really, as this is the biggest bugbear for many thousands of legitimate photographers who won't join your organisation for exactly this reason. By doing this you lend credibility to people like the OP, who frankly most professional organisations (in any field) wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.
 
1. Again many members do not wish to go down the qualifications route, it is not our intentions to discriminate against these members, so this benefit of membership will be continuing in its current form.
2. To gain a qualification with us, you need to supply 20 images that are assessed by 5 judges. An overall verdict is taken to whether the applicant has passes of failed.
3. We do mediate on a regular basis between photographers and their clients, before we can pass any judgement we always ask to see full contracts and all the images taken on the day.
4. We have been making changes in the ways we promote our Qualified Members to the general public. If you have any specific suggestions please let me know so I can look in to them.

Hope this covers your points. :)

1. If they don't wish to go down the qualifications route why would you be happy to allow them to show your logo? You can see from this thread that it lends an air of legitimacy you really didn't ought to encourage:shake:.

2. 20 images isn't much though is it? :shake:Like I said I've seen a lot of bad work from accredited and 'award winning' photographers. Some even using 'award winning' from one field of photography to sell another. You know it happens, it's unscrupulous and by waffling you defend it.

3. We've all seen the fallout of your 'mediation' and heard customer horror stories. Of course we don't get to see all the images, but you haven't covered yourselves in glory with these stories - which then backs up the low opinion many photographers and customers hold - you can't become the well respected organisation you want to be whilst standing by these people - a team is only as strong as it's weakest member.

4. Specific suggestions:
  • Use the money you spend promoting at Photography fairs on promotion at wedding and mother and baby events.
  • Use the money you spend advertising in photography magazines to advertise in.... (you should have that now)
  • When the negative press stories about wedding photographers explode - take hold of the opportunity and send out a press release about how your members guarantee a great service - again you can't do that whilst the world knows you're defending substandard work.

When customers start to turn down the rest of us because we don't 'belong' to your trusted brand - we'll sign up like a shot.

By advertising to our customers you are pulling us in as a consequence, it's subtle but it'd work.

With a positive advertising promotion to OUR prospective customers you have the power to become the licensing authority for photographers by default. You could become the body that certifies ALL the good photographers rather than the body that represents the ones who choose to belong, many of whom are using your badge to improve their standing.

Back to the OP of this thread. He's a dreamer who believes he ought to be able to be a pro photographer, he joined your organisation and is still asking about here for how to get trained:shrug:.

Surely - you are best placed to help him. But it would appear that you're happy to take his membership fee, defend his right to display the 'badge' and allow him to flail about in ignorance rather than become a trainee in a well ordered training program that'd spit him out ready to run a great business. It shows the rest of us what 'supporting your members' means.

To the outside you're defending this guy's right to borrow your legitimacy, presumably if he shot a shocking wedding you'd also mediate (we know what the result would be:crying:). What you should be doing is ensuring that doesn't happen - both by holding back the legitimacy and supporting him through a training package to ensure he never has unhappy clients. Taking the money and defending your position on a forum is the easy route.

I'll waive my consultancy fee.:love:
 
Leaving aside the fact that I had to threaten legal action to have my name removed from the SWPP site (and the laughable idea that it was left there to protect customers who might be under the impression that I was still a member), contrast the 'membership' criteria here (ie. £99) with that of the one organisation I am a member of, the ISPWP:

1. A minimum of 50 weddings shot as solo or primary photographer. If yes then:
2. The submission of 3 full weddings to the judging panel. If yes then:
3. Should that panel approve, those same 3 weddings are submitted to existing ISPWP members in your home country. If more than 1/3 vote 'No' admission is denied.

Quite different eh?
 
Phil V said:
It would seem not to be the case:thinking:

Sorry been really busy making the Convention Show Guide, will answer your suggestions as soon as I can, but I'm just about to head out.
 
Leaving aside the fact that I had to threaten legal action to have my name removed from the SWPP site (and the laughable idea that it was left there to protect customers who might be under the impression that I was still a member), contrast the 'membership' criteria here (ie. £99) with that of the one organisation I am a member of, the ISPWP:

1. A minimum of 50 weddings shot as solo or primary photographer. If yes then:
2. The submission of 3 full weddings to the judging panel. If yes then:
3. Should that panel approve, those same 3 weddings are submitted to existing ISPWP members in your home country. If more than 1/3 vote 'No' admission is denied.

Quite different eh?

So a somewhat 'lesser' organisation might insist on:
1. A minimum of 5 weddings shot as solo or primary photographer. If yes then:
2. The submission of 1 full wedding to the judging panel.
3. No need for a full member vote.
4. A full enquiry of any member seen to bring the society into disrepute - looked upon as the reputation of the society at stake. So members wouldn't believe that the 'society' was there to defend them - but they exist to support 'the society'. The returned favour would be mentoring and the promotion of the society to customers (as per my previous).
 
it would indeed. I would also add that if that somewhat 'lesser' organisation wished to provide training to photographers who wished to join, but didn't yet meet the membership criteria then those photographers were allowed to join, but that clear support and training be provided. On the strict condition they could not advertise their membership in any way until they'd meet to standards outlined in Phil's post
 
it would indeed. I would also add that if that somewhat 'lesser' organisation wished to provide training to photographers who wished to join, but didn't yet meet the membership criteria then those photographers were allowed to join, but that clear support and training be provided. On the strict condition they could not advertise their membership in any way until they'd meet to standards outlined in Phil's post

That's how I'd see it, I mentioned not using the badge until certified in my earlier post.

Should we start one?
 
What is really needed is two organisations

one dedicated to walter mitty's who want everything done for them , as I suggested earlier a suitable name would be Toggers Without Appreciable Talent , and they could have three levels of accreditidation

at the bottom end there would be " Something of a..." to get this level of acreditation it would be simply necessary to pay the £25 per year

next up would be "cheeky..." to acheive this level they'd have to pay the £25 fee and demonstrate that they had a website selling their services

The top acreditation which would be sold as being similar to an FRPS (but without the hassle of actually being any good) would be " a total utter..." To acheive this members would pay £25 a year, have a business website, and submit a maximum of five prints three of which should demonstrate a complete inability to take decent wedding shots, while the other two should be out of focus shots of parrots.

With the 'walts' taken care of the rest of us could join the new organisation run by hugh, phil, and guy - I'd suggest that this be known as Proffesionals In-need of Sensible Solutions Objecting Fervently to Freeloaders :LOL:
 
Ian, I would really recommend a course - possibly a nightschool course at your local college - which would teach you the basics in the way a book probably couldn't. 'A' Levels, BTECs, vocational courses etc would all help in training you in the art of 'seeing', as well as how light works and so on.

Most weeks I get half a dozen CVs from people who want to be photographers - and a surprising number don't have a decent portfolio. Not only will a course teach you the essential basics, it will help you develop a style and ultimately a portfolio that shows what you can do. If you're selling, say, wedding photography, you need to prove that you've done it before and that you've done it well. This industry is awash with people who are going into this profession (and yes, it is a profession) half-heartedly with little skill but a big bag full of shiny new kit. A quick Google search of portrait & wedding photographers in my home town makes my heart sink - not just the sheer number of them but also the quality of their work.

Now, I'm not saying a course is the 'be all and end all', but it will at least start you off on the right path.

Good luck


Totally agree that this is the way forward
 
Totally agree that this is the way forward

You missed the bit where the OP has let us know he can't actually be bothered to put any effort into learning. He can't find a course locally, can't learn from books, ignores the option of an online course but is happy to advertise his services as a pro (with the help of the SWPP - who have no interest in training him either) :puke:
 
have we actually checked hes a member of either swpp or rps ? - because to be frank i'm suprised he was able to make the effort to find out which organisations are out there and join two of them
 
have we actually checked hes a member of either swpp or rps ? - because to be frank i'm suprised he was able to make the effort to find out which organisations are out there and join two of them


:D...........good point Pete.
 
have we actually checked hes a member of either swpp or rps ? - because to be frank i'm suprised he was able to make the effort to find out which organisations are out there and join two of them
Surely Colin isn't daft enough to get embroiled in this discussion without checking he was actually defending a genuine member:cautious:
 
Surely Colin isn't daft enough to get embroiled in this discussion without checking he was actually defending a genuine member:cautious:

no he's a member - I've just looked. Although quite why the SWPP facebook link on Ian's entry goes off to seem random bloke called Heitor Alves is a bit of a mystery
 
You missed the bit where the OP has let us know he can't actually be bothered to put any effort into learning. He can't find a course locally, can't learn from books, ignores the option of an online course but is happy to advertise his services as a pro (with the help of the SWPP - who have no interest in training him either) :puke:


I have since read all of his threads & retract all offers of advice. Began to think it was a wind up to be honest!
 
no he's a member - I've just looked. Although quite why the SWPP facebook link on Ian's entry goes off to seem random bloke called Heitor Alves is a bit of a mystery

Oh! He's definitely a member!:LOL:
 
colintjones said:
Sorry been really busy making the Convention Show Guide, will answer your suggestions as soon as I can, but I'm just about to head out.

Colin? It was a cracking night out evidently
 
boyfalldown said:
Colin? It was a cracking night out evidently

Yes at the weekend I like to spend time with my family. Sorry if that's inconvenient to you.
 
not at all - most of us would be more than happy for you to spend far more time with them, rather than spending time running a society which lets any chucklehead join and use the logo to pretend to be a proffesional even when they clearly arent
 
Yes at the weekend I like to spend time with my family. Sorry if that's inconvenient to you.


not at all Colin, but just pointing out you'd agreed to answer Phil's suggestion,in a light hearted way. No need to be so defensive. :)


not at all - most of us would be more than happy for you to spend far more time with them, rather than spending time running a society which lets any chucklehead join and use the logo to pretend to be a proffesional even when they clearly arent

isn't that the same thing? :thinking:
 
SWPP - who have no interest in training him either :puke:

That's untrue, we have many ways members and non-members can train with us, for example.

Seminars and workshops throughout the UK (some only open to members, others open to both members and non-members)
Mini Conventions - 3 hours of free Masterclasses open to both members and non-members alike, for 2013 we have extended the amount of dates to 11, meaning we are reaching far more photographers than before.
The Convention -The largest training event for photographers in Europe that I can think of.
Mentor Me - Free to members, a written critique of 20 images supplied by the member, with a suggestion of what training the photographer should undertake to improve their imagery.
Forum - self explanatory
Professional Imagemaker - The largest magazine out of all the associations, many articles on how to improve your photography.
20x16" Print Competition Judging - Open to both members and non-members, free of charge to attend. This in itself is a valuable learning experience with the judges critiquing and scoring the images in public.

We continue to build upon this to give photographers more opportunities to train in their local area.

We firmly believe training, training and more training, is the way forward for any photographer to improve their craft. We are always looking at providing more and should the demand for more seminars be needed, we will of course provide this.
 
yeah but you let a completely untrained halfwitt use your logo to lend himself proffesional legitimacy he doesnt deserve - so why should he bother getting trained, and you clearly don't care whether he does or not
 
That's untrue, we have many ways members and non-members can train with us, for example.

Seminars and workshops throughout the UK (some only open to members, others open to both members and non-members)
Mini Conventions - 3 hours of free Masterclasses open to both members and non-members alike, for 2013 we have extended the amount of dates to 11, meaning we are reaching far more photographers than before.
The Convention -The largest training event for photographers in Europe that I can think of.
Mentor Me - Free to members, a written critique of 20 images supplied by the member, with a suggestion of what training the photographer should undertake to improve their imagery.
Forum - self explanatory
Professional Imagemaker - The largest magazine out of all the associations, many articles on how to improve your photography.
20x16" Print Competition Judging - Open to both members and non-members, free of charge to attend. This in itself is a valuable learning experience with the judges critiquing and scoring the images in public.

We continue to build upon this to give photographers more opportunities to train in their local area.

We firmly believe training, training and more training, is the way forward for any photographer to improve their craft. We are always looking at providing more and should the demand for more seminars be needed, we will of course provide this.

And one of your members, is here clearly flailing about looking for training, and your first reaction wasn't to offer him help - it was to defend your organisations inept membership arrangements:thinking:. And when I point out you're not offering him help - your reaction is to simply point out what help he could be getting from you? He's not taking advantage - you should engage, or at least have a word with someone local who can help him a little more practically.

A guy local to me, asked advice here after shooting a wedding as a 2nd, clearly not ready - my reaction - invite him along on a shoot as an assistant. There are several other photographers on this forum who offer this kind of help regularly - and we're not organised - we're just doing our bit for the industry.

I don't want to make it look like I'm having a go Colin, but you constantly 'promote' what you can do for photographers, rather than offering the actual help the industry needs.

And the bluff is a bit ridiculous, everyone reading it can see the political smokescreen. Yet you seem to think that as long as you toe the party line all is well in the world.:bonk:
 
yeah but you let a completely untrained halfwitt use your logo to lend himself proffesional legitimacy he doesnt deserve - so why should he bother getting trained, and you clearly don't care whether he does or not
Harsh, but...................
 
To be fair to colin, i don't think anyone could help the OP - despite his claims to the contrary he doesnt really want help , he wants someone to do it all for him

this is the same guy who earlier in the year had a 'pro' (in the loosest sense of the word) website up comprising mainly images lifted from album manufactuers websites, and was claiming he had a pro freind he regularly assisted.

What colin could and should do is insist he removes their logo from his website until such a time as he can demonstrate competence in the feild in which he is selling his services
 
to the OP

Baiting aside....

1. learn how to shoot
2. practice what you learnt
3. when you consistently produce superb results, you are ready to consider earning money from photography

Some people seem to get photography innately, and others need the basics beaten into them. Whichever you are is irrelevant, until you are consistently good, you are never going to make money

If you are technically and artistically minded, and fairly methodical, you acn learn yourself. You have 2 massive resources I never had

1. Digital
2. Internet

If you lack immediate comprehension of things to do with maths and science, you need a teacher

Even if you teach yourself, you will still at stages need a teacher, unless you are an exceptionally good analytical self learner

Enrol on the local HND course, and you will learn all you need. The artistic principles can be taught, but you need that something in you to flourish
 
2. 20 images isn't much though is it? :shake:Like I said I've seen a lot of bad work from accredited and 'award winning' photographers. Some even using 'award winning' from one field of photography to sell another. You know it happens, it's unscrupulous and by waffling you defend it.

20 images is petty much the industry standard, however we do offer a 'Craftsman' distinction. For this you would need to supply five full albums of wedding pictures all of which must be actual albums as supplied to customers. For this we assess not just the quality of the photography, but also the presentation of the album as a whole.

3. We've all seen the fallout of your 'mediation' and heard customer horror stories. Of course we don't get to see all the images, but you haven't covered yourselves in glory with these stories - which then backs up the low opinion many photographers and customers hold - you can't become the well respected organisation you want to be whilst standing by these people - a team is only as strong as it's weakest member.

I am unaware of any complaints that we have had and mediated in that have become public knowledge, but the fact is simple, if the photography falls short of a competent standard the photographer is made aware of this and a resolution is made between the photographer and the client.

There are many factors that are taken in to account such as contracts, quality of photography, prices etc. But in short, if the photography is poor we find a resolution and engage the photographer to participate in our extensive training noted above.

4. Specific suggestions:
  • Use the money you spend promoting at Photography fairs on promotion at wedding and mother and baby events.
  • Use the money you spend advertising in photography magazines to advertise in.... (you should have that now)


  • Whilst we haven't attended any specific "wedding and mother and baby events", we have advertised our members in national press and magazines in the past. On reflecting on our own stats and comments from the members this has been of very little impact and has not produced any quality leads for our members, however, this is not to say we wouldn't look in to this again should an opportunity become available, that we believe will create leads and sales for our members.

    We do carry on investing in to our website, that we know create leads and sales for our members and will continue to improve this section of the website to ensure members are receiving quality leads.

    If members wish to receive "Bump 2 Baby" leads, we work very closely with The Click Group who offer this service, with generous discounts to our members.

    Back to the OP of this thread. He's a dreamer who believes he ought to be able to be a pro photographer, he joined your organisation and is still asking about here for how to get trained:shrug:.

    Surely - you are best placed to help him. But it would appear that you're happy to take his membership fee, defend his right to display the 'badge' and allow him to flail about in ignorance rather than become a trainee in a well ordered training program that'd spit him out ready to run a great business. It shows the rest of us what 'supporting your members' means.

    Hopefully I've covered these points in my post above regarding training.

    I'll waive my consultancy fee.:love:

    Thanks :love:
 
20 images is petty much the industry standard, blah blah

Thanks :love:

As I expected, politicians answers. Let them eat cake!

It's pointless doing the point for point - because we're going round in circles. Hopefully when new photographers question whether they should join, enough of them will find this thread and they can make their own mind up. You had your say (y)
 
this is the same guy who earlier in the year had a 'pro' (in the loosest sense of the word) website up comprising mainly images lifted from album manufactuers websites

If any members are using images on their website that are not their own, please do let me know, as we take this very seriously and I can pass this information on to the team who can deal with it.

Thanks.
 
He took them down after he got ****ed all over on here

personally in your shoes i'd be more concerned about the excreable quality of the workmanship on show in his own photos- but we've covered that already.
 
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So what does the SWPP have to offer the "really professional" wedding photographer?
 
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